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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Battleshock requires you to roll a d6, adding the number of models slain to the result. If you roll higher than your unit's Ld, the Battleshock roll is failed and you lose a number of models equal to the diff.

Now, we know that rerolls apply before modifiers.

Given these two aspects, is the number of models lost considered a modifier to the Battleshock roll? If so, this means that unless your unit has less than Ld 6, it would RAW never have the ability to "reroll a failed Battleshock roll."
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






The Morale rules (it’s not called Battleshock in 40K) spell out exactly what a failed result is. The number of models slain is therefore part of the process and not a modifier.

I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






I mean, we can argue about whether or not that classifies as modifying a roll, or we can assume that since there are options in the game that offer the ability to reroll a failed Ld test than it's possible to reroll.

I think that the intention is clear. Modifiers to a Leadership value are called modifiers, such as the Hemlock Wraithfighter reducing enemy Ld by -2. In such a case, if you lost 5 models and had a modifier of -2 than you'd be left with a -2 modifier, not a -7. Though, obviously this is a modifier to the Leadership value and not to the Battleshock dice roll. Are there any abilities that allow you to modify your Battleshock roll?

I believe that the Battleshock mechanic is not modifying the roll. Roll a d6 and add the number of slain models to the result isn't modifying the result, it's simply a mechanic to bring you to a number. Imagine if it was take the number of slain models an add a d6 to it.

The Chaos Space Marines Word Bearers Legion trait allows them to reroll Morale tests. Certainly you aren't suggesting that they'll never be allowed to.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







They are Word Bearers. It's entirely possible GW doesn't care. Is adding modifying? Let's find out.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 MagicJuggler wrote:
Battleshock requires you to roll a d6, adding the number of models slain to the result. If you roll higher than your unit's Ld, the Battleshock roll is failed and you lose a number of models equal to the diff.

Now, we know that rerolls apply before modifiers.

Given these two aspects, is the number of models lost considered a modifier to the Battleshock roll? If so, this means that unless your unit has less than Ld 6, it would RAW never have the ability to "reroll a failed Battleshock roll."
You're not modifying the roll, you're rolling a dice to get an independent number, then adding the slain model count to that number. It's a subtle difference but it does make a difference.

That being said, I can see your point, perhaps we have been playing wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/12 20:30:25


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
Battleshock requires you to roll a d6, adding the number of models slain to the result. If you roll higher than your unit's Ld, the Battleshock roll is failed and you lose a number of models equal to the diff.

Now, we know that rerolls apply before modifiers.

Given these two aspects, is the number of models lost considered a modifier to the Battleshock roll? If so, this means that unless your unit has less than Ld 6, it would RAW never have the ability to "reroll a failed Battleshock roll."
You're not modifying the roll, you're rolling a dice to get an independent number, then adding the slain model count to that number. It's a subtle difference but it does make a difference.

That being said, I can see your point, perhaps we have been playing wrong.


We really haven’t.

I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Kharneth wrote:
I mean, we can argue about whether or not that classifies as modifying a roll, or we can assume that since there are options in the game that offer the ability to reroll a failed Ld test than it's possible to reroll.

I think that the intention is clear. Modifiers to a Leadership value are called modifiers, such as the Hemlock Wraithfighter reducing enemy Ld by -2. In such a case, if you lost 5 models and had a modifier of -2 than you'd be left with a -2 modifier, not a -7. Though, obviously this is a modifier to the Leadership value and not to the Battleshock dice roll. Are there any abilities that allow you to modify your Battleshock roll?

I believe that the Battleshock mechanic is not modifying the roll. Roll a d6 and add the number of slain models to the result isn't modifying the result, it's simply a mechanic to bring you to a number. Imagine if it was take the number of slain models an add a d6 to it.

The Chaos Space Marines Word Bearers Legion trait allows them to reroll Morale tests. Certainly you aren't suggesting that they'll never be allowed to.


Also, you are not modifying the Leadership value. You are actually modifying the result.

[Thumb - MoraleRolls.jpg]

   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior




Tacoma, WA, USA

And based on this:
1. The number of slain models is not a modifier to the test. It is a part of the Morale Test Mechanic.
2. Modifiers to a unit's Leadership Attribute are not a modifier to the test. It is a modifier to the Attribute that happens to be used in the Test.
3. You may reroll your Morale Test if the total of the test is greater than your modified Leadership.
4. If you have a modifier to your Morale Test, you check for failure before determining if you reroll per the reroll rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







1. It's literally a modifier to the result rolled.
2. The only waya to modify the unit's ld are bespoke abilities (ex. Night Lords).
3. Sure.
4. Wrong.
   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

 MagicJuggler wrote:
1. It's literally a modifier to the result rolled.

No. You do not have a result until you add the number of models from the unit that have been slain that turn to the dice roll.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Ghaz wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
1. It's literally a modifier to the result rolled.

No. You do not have a result until you add the number of models from the unit that have been slain that turn to the dice roll.


No. You get the result by rolling a d6 and adding a modifier.
[Thumb - RollingDice.png]

   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

And again to determine the roll, you to add the number of models from the unit that have been slain that turn to the dice roll. You don't stop halfway through the process.

To take a Morale test, roll a dice and add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn. If the result of the Morale test exceeds the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit, the test is failed.

The test (i.e., the roll) is D6 plus he number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn. The number is the '... result of the Morale test...'. Nothing you've quoted changes what the roll is.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







You are adding a number to a roll. Ergo you are modifying a roll to get a result.
   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

Please show what rule you're using to modify Morale tests, because you don't have a valid Morale test until you've add the number of models slain.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Chapter Master with Wings





Chicago, IL

Because you must be able to fail to "reroll a failed Battleshock roll." Then the number of models added must not be considered a modifier.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




This seems pretty pointless to argue about. The intention of the rule is perfectly clear.

Juggler is just (once again) nitpicking the phrasing of everything possible to make some kind of snide point about GW being bad at making rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 DeathReaper wrote:
Because you must be able to fail to "reroll a failed Battleshock roll." Then the number of models added must not be considered a modifier.


You could technically use Ld debuffs (Night Lords, phantasm grenades, etc) to make Ld tests failable.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Yeah lay off GW guys. They are an up and coming new company, 2 dudes working out of their mothers loft! They've only had -checks wikipedia- FOURTY THREE YEARS to get it right.

MagicJuggler makes a good point, and I can see that there is enough ambiguity for it to be an issue. The fact that there are so many other stupid things wrong with the rules (that aren't nitpicks, but core fundamental issues that are bizarre and intuitive) means we genuinely have no idea what the "intent" might be.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






Only we know what the intent is because they wrote it, and it’s abundabtly clear to everyone. The rules also clearly describe how to take a Morale test, and it’s different to a straight-up roll with a success number. If you attempt to redefine a Morale test as just a dice roll you’re simply not following the rules - and we know you love to follow the rules, right? The number of models slain is a component of the test, not a modifier. That’s the RAW.

Wilfully misrepresenting that as ambiguous is disingenuous, and given you’ve recently berated people for being disingenuous when they were asking honest questions, BCB, I’m surprised you’re here being disingenuous about this. Wait. I’m not.

Other issues with the rules are irrelevant to this thread - pack away the soapbox, dear chap. Stay on topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 06:34:14


I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Chapter Master with Wings





Chicago, IL

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Only we know what the intent is because they wrote it, and it’s abundabtly clear to everyone. The rules also clearly describe how to take a Morale test, and it’s different to a straight-up roll with a success number. If you attempt to redefine a Morale test as just a dice roll you’re simply not following the rules - and we know you love to follow the rules, right? The number of models slain is a component of the test, not a modifier. That’s the RAW.

Wilfully misrepresenting that as ambiguous is disingenuous, and given you’ve recently berated people for being disingenuous when they were asking honest questions, BCB, I’m surprised you’re here being disingenuous about this. Wait. I’m not.

Other issues with the rules are irrelevant to this thread - pack away the soapbox, dear chap. Stay on topic.


1000% this.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 MagicJuggler wrote:
1. It's literally a modifier to the result rolled.


The rule that you posted before making this comment quite literally refers the die roll plus the number of slain models as the result. That's not treating it as a modifier to the result.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 14:30:13


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







The problem is "result" is used interchangeably to mean d6s rolled ("Some rolls refer to 2d6, 3d6 and so on. In that case, roll that many d6s and add the results together") or for the final "result." By that definition, the first d6 is a result which has casualties added to come to another result. In other words, a modification (assuming d6s are results and static numbers are modifiers; then again, modifiers are another undefined game term), unless rerolls are applied after checking for failure, which contradicts the fact that rerolls are "always" [as per the Designer Commentary] before modifers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 15:04:41


 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






 MagicJuggler wrote:
The problem is "result" is used interchangeably to mean d6s rolled ("Some rolls refer to 2d6, 3d6 and so on. In that case, roll that many d6s and add the results together") or for the final "result." By that definition, the first d6 is a result which has casualties added to come to another result. In other words, a modification (assuming d6s are results and static numbers are modifiers; then again, modifiers are another undefined game term), unless rerolls are applied after checking for failure, which contradicts the fact that rerolls are "always" [as per the Designer Commentary] before modifers.


The rule literally spells out the conditions of a Morale test. Just read and apply it. Trying to wedge in all this other stuff isn’t applicable.

I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor



West Yorkshire

 MagicJuggler wrote:
They are Word Bearers. It's entirely possible GW doesn't care. Is adding modifying? Let's find out.


Adding is modifying, the difference here when resolving morale compared to shooting or Close combat is that the morale rule explicitly states that you must apply this specific modifier (casualties taken) only, then check to see the result of the check and determine whether it is a pass or fail. all rerolls and other modifiers then follow the stated priority for sequencing, reroll if failed, then apply any other modifiers, such as leadership penalties.

5000pts W1/ D0/ L1
5000pts W4/ D0/ L3
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 MagicJuggler wrote:
The problem is "result" is used interchangeably to mean d6s rolled ("Some rolls refer to 2d6, 3d6 and so on. In that case, roll that many d6s and add the results together") or for the final "result." By that definition, the first d6 is a result which has casualties added to come to another result. In other words, a modification (assuming d6s are results and static numbers are modifiers; then again, modifiers are another undefined game term), unless rerolls are applied after checking for failure, which contradicts the fact that rerolls are "always" [as per the Designer Commentary] before modifers.


But in this case they explicitly define the result as being the die roll plus the number of casualties. AsJohnnyHell says, just read and apply the rule, and not try to try to subdivide it further when they've plainly stated what the result is - the dice roll plus the number of casualties.
   
Made in ca
Numberless Necron Warrior





I agree that the test itself includes the adding of the dead.

Related question: wtf is Battleshock? Is it a name for Morale checks in a different edition?

I'm a female 40k player, don't call me dude. 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






 Blndmage wrote:
I agree that the test itself includes the adding of the dead.

Related question: wtf is Battleshock? Is it a name for Morale checks in a different edition?


It’s the name in Age of Sigmar. It would be super helpful if people called 40K rules by their 40K names.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/14 06:27:37


I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
 
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