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Can strategems that are used "At the beginning of the player turn" be used more than once? Does this count as a phase?

*UPDATE*

GW has replied on their community Facebook page they consider it an out of phase strategem. Take that as you will. I am still hoping for an email from their faq department.

The core rules list the phases on the first or second page. Beginning or end of a players turn/battle round is outside of a phase. No limit how many times a stratagem can be played. BRB pg. 215 has two examples what counts as outside of phase.

 p5freak wrote:
The core rules list the phases on the first or second page. Beginning or end of a players turn/battle round is outside of a phase. No limit how many times a stratagem can be played. BRB pg. 215 has two examples what counts as outside of phase.

And yet again I have to tell you this is incorrect.

The beginning of a players turn is the same as the beginning of the movement phase. You cannot use "At the start of your turn" stratagems more than once.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
The core rules list the phases on the first or second page. Beginning or end of a players turn/battle round is outside of a phase. No limit how many times a stratagem can be played. BRB pg. 215 has two examples what counts as outside of phase.

And yet again I have to tell you this is incorrect.

The beginning of a players turn is the same as the beginning of the movement phase. You cannot use "At the start of your turn" stratagems more than once.

No, you are incorrect. The start of your turn is not the movement phase. There are stratagem and abilities happening at the start of your turn or any players turn. So there is something before the movement phase which is undefined by the rules. If it's undefined it's not a phase. Otherwise it would be the start of players turn phase. But There is no such thing.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
The core rules list the phases on the first or second page. Beginning or end of a players turn/battle round is outside of a phase. No limit how many times a stratagem can be played. BRB pg. 215 has two examples what counts as outside of phase.

And yet again I have to tell you this is incorrect.

The beginning of a players turn is the same as the beginning of the movement phase. You cannot use "At the start of your turn" stratagems more than once.

No, you are incorrect. The start of your turn is not the movement phase. There are stratagem and abilities happening at the start of your turn or any players turn. So there is something before the movement phase which is undefined by the rules. If it's undefined it's not a phase. Otherwise it would be the start of players turn phase. But There is no such thing.

Read the rules, the start of the turn is the start of the movement phase.

Edit: Removed some stuff that offended JohnnyHell.

I'd say BCB is wrong in this one. A stratagem that says it's used "at the start of your turn" would have to be used before a stratagem that says "at the start of your movement phase" since your turn must begin before your movement phase can begin. The stratagem would therefore be used before the movement phase, which means that it is an out-of-phase stratagem and can therefore be used more than once. I can't find anything in the rules that supports BCB's claim that the start of your turn = the start of your movement phase.

 Nighttail wrote:
I'd say BCB is wrong in this one. A stratagem that says it's used "at the start of your turn" would have to be used before a stratagem that says "at the start of your movement phase" since your turn must begin before your movement phase can begin. The stratagem would therefore be used before the movement phase, which means that it is an out-of-phase stratagem and can therefore be used more than once. I can't find anything in the rules that supports BCB's claim that the start of your turn = the start of your movement phase.

The very first page of the core rules shows the turn structure.

Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:

At no point does it say "There are also mythical spaces between phases."

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
The core rules list the phases on the first or second page. Beginning or end of a players turn/battle round is outside of a phase. No limit how many times a stratagem can be played. BRB pg. 215 has two examples what counts as outside of phase.

And yet again I have to tell you this is incorrect.

The beginning of a players turn is the same as the beginning of the movement phase. You cannot use "At the start of your turn" stratagems more than once.

No, you are incorrect. The start of your turn is not the movement phase. There are stratagem and abilities happening at the start of your turn or any players turn. So there is something before the movement phase which is undefined by the rules. If it's undefined it's not a phase. Otherwise it would be the start of players turn phase. But There is no such thing.

Read the rules, the start of the turn is the start of the movement phase.

I'll leave the thread here because I know some double standards will come into play. In short, p5freak is wrong and has a history of deliberately being wrong.

Citation please, where in the rules does it say that your turn begins with the movement phase ?
A history about being wrong can be said about you as well.

 p5freak wrote:
Citation please, where in the rules does it say that your turn begins with the movement phase ?

Literally the first page of the Core rules.

Page 176 BRB wrote:Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Citation please, where in the rules does it say that your turn begins with the movement phase ?

Literally the first page of the Core rules.

Page 176 BRB wrote:Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:

That doesn't mean that your turn starts with the movement phase.

 p5freak wrote:
That doesn't mean that your turn starts with the movement phase.

It quite literally does. Your turn consists of phases. It does not consist of magical instances of non-phases between phases.

Let us not ignore

Page 215 BRB wrote: The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’.

and

Page 176 BRB wrote:During each battle round, both players have a turn.

So a battle round consists of two turns. There is no "magical space" between each battle round, nor between the start of the battle round and start of the first player's turn. Therefore, the start of a battle round is the start of a player turn, and the end of a battle round is the end of a player turn. By the definition that "the start of your turn" = "the start of your movement phase", you'd also need the definition that "the end of your turn" = "the end of your morale phase". This would also mean that the end of the second players morale phase = the end of the battle round. By this definition, the end of the battle round = morale phase, and no stratagem can be used more than once. However, the BRB clearly gives permission to use stratagems more than once during the end of the battle round, which is the end of the player turn. One would also therefore apply the logic that "start of the battle round" would have permission to use a stratagem more than once, and since "the start of the battle round" = "the start of your turn" (if you're player one), you'd be able to use a stratagem more than once.

If the beginning of the player turn=the movement phase, why wouldn't they phrase it "at the beginning of any movement phase"?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
That doesn't mean that your turn starts with the movement phase.

It quite literally does. Your turn consists of phases. It does not consist of magical instances of non-phases between phases.

If your turn is only the 5 phases, how come that the BRB pg. 215 gives explicit examples what is outside of a phase ?? The two examples given are "before the battle begins" and "at the end of a battle round". According to you thats not possible, because there are only the 5 phases, and nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Riggs wrote:
If the beginning of the player turn=the movement phase, why wouldn't they phrase it "at the beginning of any movement phase"?

Because its not true. There is something called the start of your turn, before the movement phase, and after the morale phase, which is the end of your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nighttail wrote:

So a battle round consists of two turns. There is no "magical space" between each battle round, nor between the start of the battle round and start of the first player's turn. Therefore, the start of a battle round is the start of a player turn, and the end of a battle round is the end of a player turn. By the definition that "the start of your turn" = "the start of your movement phase", you'd also need the definition that "the end of your turn" = "the end of your morale phase". This would also mean that the end of the second players morale phase = the end of the battle round. By this definition, the end of the battle round = morale phase, and no stratagem can be used more than once. However, the BRB clearly gives permission to use stratagems more than once during the end of the battle round, which is the end of the player turn. One would also therefore apply the logic that "start of the battle round" would have permission to use a stratagem more than once, and since "the start of the battle round" = "the start of your turn" (if you're player one), you'd be able to use a stratagem more than once.

Agreed.

Riggs wrote:
If the beginning of the player turn=the movement phase, why wouldn't they phrase it "at the beginning of any movement phase"?

Because they are the same thing, so it doesn't matter which one you call it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nighttail wrote:
Let us not ignore

Page 215 BRB wrote: The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’.

and

Page 176 BRB wrote:During each battle round, both players have a turn.

So a battle round consists of two turns. There is no "magical space" between each battle round, nor between the start of the battle round and start of the first player's turn. Therefore, the start of a battle round is the start of a player turn, and the end of a battle round is the end of a player turn. By the definition that "the start of your turn" = "the start of your movement phase", you'd also need the definition that "the end of your turn" = "the end of your morale phase". This would also mean that the end of the second players morale phase = the end of the battle round. By this definition, the end of the battle round = morale phase, and no stratagem can be used more than once. However, the BRB clearly gives permission to use stratagems more than once during the end of the battle round, which is the end of the player turn. One would also therefore apply the logic that "start of the battle round" would have permission to use a stratagem more than once, and since "the start of the battle round" = "the start of your turn" (if you're player one), you'd be able to use a stratagem more than once.

The end of the battle round isn't the same as the start of the turn. The End of the Battle Round stratagems have an explicit exception, it doesn't apply to start of turn stratagems.

To go full RaI for a moment (yes, shocking I know), do you think it's intended for Imperial Guard to heal 16 wounds on a Baneblade in a single turn? I doubt it is, and coincidentally the rules don't allow it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

To go full RaI for a moment (yes, shocking I know), do you think it's intended for Imperial Guard to heal 16 wounds on a Baneblade in a single turn? I doubt it is, and coincidentally the rules don't allow it.

Do you think its intended that a leman russ has no limit to the number of hunter killer missiles he can take ? Up to the total points limit, of course. Want a leman russ with 100 hk missiles ? Go ahead, its legal.

Start of turn is movement phase. The stratagems clearly show the examples of what is out of phase. Before battle, end of battle ROUND.. etc.. Start of turn is not one of those.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

To go full RaI for a moment (yes, shocking I know), do you think it's intended for Imperial Guard to heal 16 wounds on a Baneblade in a single turn? I doubt it is, and coincidentally the rules don't allow it.

Do you think its intended that a leman russ has no limit to the number of hunter killer missiles he can take ? Up to the total points limit, of course. Want a leman russ with 100 hk missiles ? Go ahead, its legal.

The difference is the rules allow that.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

To go full RaI for a moment (yes, shocking I know), do you think it's intended for Imperial Guard to heal 16 wounds on a Baneblade in a single turn? I doubt it is, and coincidentally the rules don't allow it.

Do you think its intended that a leman russ has no limit to the number of hunter killer missiles he can take ? Up to the total points limit, of course. Want a leman russ with 100 hk missiles ? Go ahead, its legal.

Of course, he'd have to fire them all off the first time he shoots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The end of the battle round isn't the same as the start of the turn. The End of the Battle Round stratagems have an explicit exception, it doesn't apply to start of turn stratagems.

More accurately, End of Battle Round is one example cited for an explicit exception for any stratagems played outside of a phase. That does not mean that anything not cited as an example has to be taking place during a phase..such as the start of a turn. The citing of the End of Battle Round ishowever, evidence that your statement about turns only consisting of phases is incorrect, as a battleround consists of each player's turn. If the End of Battle Round exists outside the phase structure, then other end of turn things would also exist outside the phase structure. If end of round/turn things exist outside the phase structure, then beginning of phase/turn things must equally exist outside the phase structure.

 doctortom wrote:
If end of round/turn things exist outside the phase structure, then beginning of phase/turn things must equally exist outside the phase structure.

You can't claim that, there is no basis to suggest that is true.

Sororitas Acts Of Faith disagree with you, but that was endless and tediously argued in another thread.

Saying you’re bowing out then flagrantly breaking rule 1 with a side of insulting the mods, then continuing to post further, is a questionable approach, btw...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If end of round/turn things exist outside the phase structure, then beginning of phase/turn things must equally exist outside the phase structure.

You can't claim that, there is no basis to suggest that is true.

Sure he can claim that. The two examples on pg. 215 of the BRB prove him right. If a turn would only be the 5 phases the two examples wouldnt be necessary.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If end of round/turn things exist outside the phase structure, then beginning of phase/turn things must equally exist outside the phase structure.

You can't claim that, there is no basis to suggest that is true.

Sure he can claim that. The two examples on pg. 215 of the BRB prove him right. If a turn would only be the 5 phases the two examples wouldnt be necessary.

You mean the examples that aren't "the start of the turn"?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If end of round/turn things exist outside the phase structure, then beginning of phase/turn things must equally exist outside the phase structure.

You can't claim that, there is no basis to suggest that is true.

Sure he can claim that. The two examples on pg. 215 of the BRB prove him right. If a turn would only be the 5 phases the two examples wouldnt be necessary.

You mean the examples that aren't "the start of the turn"?

You do realize that "an example of a thing happening" isn't an exhaustive list of any time that thing can happen?

And, in fact, the definition of the word "example" means that it cannot be an exhaustive list, and that interpreting it thusly is either disingenuous or willfully ignorant?

Yeah the term "such as" certainly invites generalization when interpreting the rule.

And the rule already establishes that there is indeed magic space at the end of a battle round, ie after one player's moral phase and another player's movement phase.

This certainly invites you to consider the option that there is also magic space at the end of a player's turn (otherwise, how is that end of a turn structurally any different from the end of a battle round - as far as generalizing from the existing rule goes.

Riggs wrote:
Can strategems that are used "At the beginning of the player turn" be used more than once? Does this count as a phase?

The start of a turn is implicitly not a phase , so stratagems can indeed be used multiple times.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Riggs wrote:
Can strategems that are used "At the beginning of the player turn" be used more than once? Does this count as a phase?

The start of a turn is implicitly not a phase , so stratagems can indeed be used multiple times.

The start of the turn is the start of the movement phase, so you're still using it inside a phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Riggs wrote:
Can strategems that are used "At the beginning of the player turn" be used more than once? Does this count as a phase?

The start of a turn is implicitly not a phase , so stratagems can indeed be used multiple times.

The start of the turn is the start of the movement phase, so you're still using it inside a phase.

Much as I'd love to side with you, I think this time, neither side is right. I think we simply do not have enough information to tell. We have explicit confirmation that the end of the turn is its own special timing, and IMPLICIT suggestion that the beginning of the phase is the same, but not explicit confirmation of this. It's implied one way, but never stated. I think we'd need a clarification FAQ for this, and I recommend someone send that in to GW.

Yeah it's not airtight, but the implication is a lot stronger that its not a phase, as per end of turn.

How do we send this to GW?