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Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





Something that came up in the Necron tactics thread;

If you are +1 to hit and you fire in overwatch, do you get any special effects (more specfically, Tesla) on rolls of a 5 or a 6? And likewise, are any - to hit modifiers meaning you cannot get Tesla on Overwatch?

General Handbook:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

So the rules say that a roll of a 6 always hit (so no immune to ranged fire, like you can get in the shooting phase with sufficiënt - to hit modifiers) however, it isn’t clear whether or not any modifiers might affect special effects on a roll of 5 or 6.

Example:

A telsa Carabine fired in overwatch. He rolls a 5 to hit and misses. However, he has +1 to hit from MWBD.
So the shot misses (not a roll of a 6 in overwatch) however, the roll of a 5 becomes a 6 and thus proccs tesla. It does not ‘hit’ but it proccs Tesla, resulting in the two bonus hits from Tesla but not the actual hit roll.

Is this true or not?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/06/13 07:32:59


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Doctoralex wrote:
Something that came up in the Necron tactics thread;

If you are +1 to hit and you fire in overwatch, do you get any special effects (more specfically, Tesla) on rolls of a 5 or a 6? And likewise, are any - to hit modifiers meaning you cannot get Tesla on Overwatch?

General Handbook:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

So the rules say that a roll of a 6 always hit (so no immune to ranged fire, like you can get in the shooting phase with sufficiënt - to hit modifiers) however, it isn’t clear whether or not any modifiers might affect special effects on a roll of 5 or 6.

Example:

A telsa Carabine fired in overwatch. He rolls a 5 to hit, but has +1 to hit thanks to MWBD.
So the shot misses (not a roll of a 6 in overwatch) however, the roll of a 5 becomes a 6 and thus proccs tesla.

Is this true or not?


Not true. a 5 is a miss and can not get 3 hits instead of 1 on overwatch as a 5 does not hit in the first place.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Agreed.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Actually, you do get the tesla hits. It doesn't matter that it misses, tesla doesn't care about that. You get Tesla for the same reason that you get slain by a Plasma Gun on a 2 with -1 to hit in Overwatch. The modifiers still apply, they just don't determine whether you hit or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 10:11:02


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

No, the +1 to hit is ignored for overwatch. You can't score 3 hits instead of 1 when you don't get the 1 hit on a 5.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
No, the +1 to hit is ignored for overwatch. You can't score 3 hits instead of 1 when you don't get the 1 hit on a 5.
No, it isn't. Show me where it says to ignore modifiers in overwatch? I'll save you the trouble, because you can't. Yes, you don't take into account modifiers when determining if you hit, but that doesn't stop modifiers from applying. Shooting overcharged plasma at something with -1 to hit causes the Plasma to explode on a 1 or 2, even in overwatch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 11:47:28


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





BCB is right. "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers".

In other words, those modifiers still do happen, they just don't normally count for anything. If you get something that goes off on a roll of 1 or 6 or whatever, you still factor in those modifiers to see if those things do or don't happen. I don't have the Necron book, but if Tesla says that a roll of 6 or more to hit generates 3 hits instead of 1, then Tesla won't work, because it didn't hit (there's no 1 hit to be replaced with 3 hits). If Tesla says that a to-hit roll of 6 or more generates 2 additional hits, then it does work, because the 6 still happened, it was just a modified 6.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 12:04:54


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I'm with Yarium. If it converts Hits, no dice. If it provides additional Hits, you are good to go.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yep, as above. As silly as it sounds, a shot can miss but still provide additional hits. Because additional hits does not require any initial hits, and you only ignore modifiers for one SPECIFIC reason.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

As i already said Tesla does 3 hits instead of 1 on a hit roll of 6+. So the 5 doesnt hit, no 1 hit, no 3 hits, tesla doesnt trigger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 13:44:56


 
   
Made in ar
Fresh-Faced New User





the rule is
Each hit roll of 6+ with this weapon causes 3 hits instead
of 1.
is no to the original ask.
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
No, the +1 to hit is ignored for overwatch. You can't score 3 hits instead of 1 when you don't get the 1 hit on a 5.
No, it isn't. Show me where it says to ignore modifiers in overwatch? I'll save you the trouble, because you can't. Yes, you don't take into account modifiers when determining if you hit, but that doesn't stop modifiers from applying. Shooting overcharged plasma at something with -1 to hit causes the Plasma to explode on a 1 or 2, even in overwatch.


The rule for Tesla is:

Each hit roll of a 6+ counts as 3 hits instead of 1.


So yea, with +1 to hit on that unit they would get a Tesla procc on a 5, but no actual hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 13:56:07


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

If you are generating hits on anything but a 6 for overwatch, you have broken the rules. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 DeathReaper wrote:
If you are generating hits on anything but a 6 for overwatch, you have broken the rules. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).
This is not true in the slightest. Please show me in the rulebook where it says that. The rules only say your normal attacks hit on a 6, ignoring modifiers for the purposes of seeing if you hit. It doesn't prevent hits from coming from elsewhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 14:04:08


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
If you are generating hits on anything but a 6 for overwatch, you have broken the rules. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).
This is not true in the slightest.

Except it is, overwatch is very specific with its rules.
Please show me in the rulebook where it says that.

Quite literally the rules for overwatch "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers".

a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers is what disallows a 5 from hitting.

The rules only say your normal attacks hit on a 6, ignoring modifiers for the purposes of seeing if you hit. It doesn't prevent hits from coming from elsewhere.
It quite literally does. you need to roll a 6 to hit. if you roll a 5 you miss and can not hit on a 5 at all. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






But the tesla rule DOES NOT CARE if you hit or not. You get 3 hits instead of 1, but it doesn't care if the hit actually hits.
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Extrapolating from the Harlequins FAQ, I would believe that the extra hits are procced, but they all miss.

Q: How does the Riddle-smiths Masque Form interact
with abilities that generate additional attacks or score
additional hits?
A: If a unit has an ability that generates extra attacks on
a roll that exactly matches the result of a Riddle-smiths
roll, the extra attack is generated. Note that the original
attack still misses, and if the hit roll for the extra attack
also matches the result of the Riddle-smiths roll, it also
misses. Likewise, if a weapon has an ability that scores
additional hits on a roll that exactly matches the result
of a Riddle-smiths roll, it would score those additional
hits, but they’d all miss.


The bolded is what I'm extrapolating from - essentially this makes me believe that since you need a 6 on the dice to hit in overwatch, a 5 with a +1 will generate the hits, but since the roll itself was a 5, they would all be misses.

Riddlesmiths essentially has you roll 2 dice at the start of the fight phase and discard the higher, any hit roll from an enemy that matches the remaining dice is a miss.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 14:22:48


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






So we can all agree that GW has once again ruined everything forever with contradictory Special Snowflake FAQs and poor rules writing, and leave it at "Decide Pre-Game like 99% of the game because who wants clear and concise rules? Nerds and Gary No-Fun that's who!"
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Texas

Going the other direction. If you roll a 6 in overwatch with Tesla and have a -1 to hit. What happens? 1 Regular hit for the 6 since it always hits, but no Tesla extra hits? Thats the way I read it.

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Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Dynas wrote:
Going the other direction. If you roll a 6 in overwatch with Tesla and have a -1 to hit. What happens? 1 Regular hit for the 6 since it always hits, but no Tesla extra hits? Thats the way I read it.
Correct. The result of the dice is 6 for the purposes of deciding if you hit overwatch or not, because overwatch ignores those modifiers. However, the result of the dice for all other purposes is still 5, so no tesla for you.

Same way that if you had -1 to hit with Overcharged plasma, you'd overheat on a 1 or 2, and if you had -5 to hit on an Overcharged plasma, you'd still hit on a 6, but would always explode.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







You hit on 6s regardless of modifiers, then look up modifiers to parse the critical statement.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
By that logic I can't use Smoke Launchers after advancing, which is not the case.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
By that logic I can't use Smoke Launchers after advancing, which is not the case.


Your analogy makes no sense without further explanation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 16:12:11


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
By that logic I can't use Smoke Launchers after advancing, which is not the case.


I'm not sure if that's the case. I understand the reference to the FAQ for Smoke Launchers, but that's a question of whether you can substitute one action for another, not one result for another. That's asking "I can do Y instead of X, but I can't do X, so can I do Y?" and the answer was "yes". This is "When X happens, Y happens instead, but X didn't happen. Can Y still happen?", which my intuition tells me the answer to which is "no".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 16:22:41


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




 Yarium wrote:
This is "When X happens, Y happens instead, but X didn't happen. Can Y still happen?", which my intuition tells me the answer to which is "no".


The smoke launcher FAQ addresses just that question. Can I use my smoke launchers when I'm not allowed to shoot? (Smoke launchers are used instead of shooting) The designers said "yes, you can"
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.

EXACTLY - it's says instead of 1 - not instead of 0. You have to meet the requirements of instead of 1 for the additional hits to count.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Nova Scotia

Ok so what about the flipside then? What if (in the example of Tesla), you had a -1 modifier in Overwatch. A roll of 6 would hit, but with the -1 it turns into a 5 so the natural 6 hits due to Overwatch, but doesn't generate the 3 hits as per Tesla?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Don't worry guys I am pretty sure these hit on 6's rules are going to start looking like the Imperial knights Endless furry relic. It specifically states that UNMODIFIED hit rolls of 6 - generate additional hits. I'd recommend playing with all these types of weapons in this way because it actually makes a lot more sense.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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