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My local gaming group has installed some restrictions in games of 30k and primarily Zone mortalis. One of them is that as a Thousand Sons player I can't use Sekhmet terminators in ZM - they are considered broken withoust redemption. Also no Ahriman or Magnus, unless there is some other primarch around or you are fighting Custodes or Mechanicum. The Cult Arcana must also match the psykic powers generated, but that's something I totaly agree with.
Same goes for Custodes, especialy their Dreads. Non-legion specific stuff that is basicly forbidden is the Sicaran Arcus, Phosphex Rapiers, Crios Venetor, Scoria. But a question arises - is this stuff realy so broken that you have to ban it?

The 30k rules are in a funny place - they're balanced for larger games and there are some units/builds that are more powerful than others. There are reasons why Centurion Mode is gaining popularity.

I've tried running a fluffy, power armour only Blackshields list, but it doesn't work well against the Terminator in Spartan spam that is everywhere (or Custodes, or tank lists,or...).

Not really .... then book 7 came out, custodes, Tsons and wolves all really shook things up, with custodes being probably the most broken army ever produced by GW/Fw, one ballacing factor I’ve seen used and we use here is a 20% handicap for them, they get 20% less points than the opponent to make up for the disparity.

Agree with Book VII. There are probably all kinds of reasons why its so busted. It's the worst black book in the Horus Heresy so far. Massive power creep, poor editing, poor internal and external balance... if you do a search around here, you'll see some posts about it.

Thousand Sons have Psychic powers. No other army comes close to the amount of Psychic stuff that the T-Sons can throw out. At best, your Legion will have a Consul Librarian who can be a max level 2 Psyker. The Thousand Sons? Everyone is a Psyker, and they really don't pay for it. For example, the Sekhemet Terminators clock in at 255, which is average for the high end named Terminator squads, but they have all the martial skills, wargear options, and rules as those other named Terminator units, and on top of that, they are level 2 Psykers. Magnus was the most broken Primarch ever with the old Psychic powers system. With the powers replaced in the Red Rule Book, he is not nearly the powerhouse he was before, though he is still in the top 3 Primarchs in the game. Thousand Sons are still playable and beatable. They are one of the more powerful Legions in the game with no real counter.

Custodes have some massive power in their models, wargear, and rules. However, a single troop model will cost you more than 60 points. They have some great stats and awesome wargear, but a troop squad of 10 models will run you 635 points. Their awesome Contemptor Dreadnaught comes in at 250+ points. It's not the best Dread in the game, but it's pretty close. The Custodes have the best tank in the game, the Caladius Grav-Tank. They are a very small, points dense, elite army that will always be heavily outnumbered. They are absolutely the masters of Close Combat. Even their named Captain-General can put a big hurt on most Primarchs. Players have a hard time dealing with a Custodes force because they are usually running Pride of the Legion or Primarch's Chosen, which makes expensive Veteran or special Legion Squads into Troops choices, and then they go for points-dense units to fill out 2,500 or 3,000 points. They are making an "Elite" army and taking that up against the most elite army in 30K: Custodes. Then the players either don't play the mission (Custodes have a hard time in Objective based missions), or they go at the Custodes piecemeal and engage them in close combat. That is always a losing fight. Basically, the Custodes are the ultimate Elite Army, with stupid high points values and will always be out numbered. They have the wargear and rules to go with those high points costs. It also takes very few models to make a 2,000+ point army, and Forge World charges a premium per model. Buying less models is always attractive to players!

I'll mention the Sisters of Silence only in passing, as they are really not worth fielding, even as a potent anti-psyker force. Too fragile, lots of points, and useless when only 1-2 armies (Thousand Sons and Word Bearers) have any real Psychic powers. This might change in Book 8, where FW has hinted that Psychic Powers will be more widely available to all Legions.

Then we come to the Space Wolves. Here is where you can really see how Book VII failed. Awesome troops, but most expensive and worst named Terminators in 30K. A Primarch that is arguably the best in close combat, but does nothing for his Legion. Bad Rites of War, and Legion rules that are... well, if they charge, they are good. If they don't charge, then they are pretty blah. They have a heavy HQ tax, where they must take an HQ for every 1000 points, rounded up, and the HQ choices are very restrictive. They must take Grey Slayers as Compulsorary Troops, and they are a bit on the expensive side, but they are also probably the best troops in 30K due to wargear options and how you can outfit them. The Wolf Priests are a very interesting option for Space Wolves and an almost must take. A lot of Legions end up with one or two units that a player heavily invests in, backs them up with RoW, and expect to carry the game, with everything else in the Legion in a "support" role. The Space Wolves take that to the next level, and it usually centers around the Deathsworn and a Priest of Fenris, I'd say they are probably the most difficult Legion to play, but offer great rewards when played well.

Book VII: Inferno offers a lot of great fluff and artwork. The Missions are missions, nothing special. I haven't played the Campaign, but it looks pretty good if you are a Space Wolves and Thousand Sons player. The real gem here is how FW describes the other Legions that were involved in Prospero. Remember, the destruction Prospero took place before the betrayal at Isstvan III, and while it was mainly Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons, just about every Legion sent representatives to enforce the edict of the Emperor. For me, reading about why Horus sent a detachment of Sons of Horus and what they did on Prospero was pure fulff gold (I'm a Sons of Horus player). The book was awesome for fluff. For game rules? I'd give it about a 5 out of 10. Lots of power creep, and some inconsistent rules.

I sold my Thousand Son's because I did not enjoy easy mode. Book 7 shook ALOT of things up. That said I really do not agree with people altering the rules, points cost etc. The best way I have found in our local group is follow the golden rule.

"Don't be a dick"

Sure I had Magnus and 20 Sekhmet, but I only rolled that in when people wanted to play against that.

ZM is a brutal game and a lot of Legions are brutal for it. My Luna Wolves are amazing I basically have BS5 all the time.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
I sold my Thousand Son's because I did not enjoy easy mode. Book 7 shook ALOT of things up. That said I really do not agree with people altering the rules, points cost etc. The best way I have found in our local group is follow the golden rule.

"Don't be a dick"

Sure I had Magnus and 20 Sekhmet, but I only rolled that in when people wanted to play against that.

ZM is a brutal game and a lot of Legions are brutal for it. My Luna Wolves are amazing I basically have BS5 all the time.

It’s a bit difficult when custodes are almost universally 20-30% too cheap in the heresy, not the only offenders though and it’s an optional house rule, almost all of us have said that he can use full points but HE insists on the handicap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah zone mortalis is awesome

 Formosa wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
I sold my Thousand Son's because I did not enjoy easy mode. Book 7 shook ALOT of things up. That said I really do not agree with people altering the rules, points cost etc. The best way I have found in our local group is follow the golden rule.

"Don't be a dick"

Sure I had Magnus and 20 Sekhmet, but I only rolled that in when people wanted to play against that.

ZM is a brutal game and a lot of Legions are brutal for it. My Luna Wolves are amazing I basically have BS5 all the time.

It’s a bit difficult when custodes are almost universally 20-30% too cheap in the heresy, not the only offenders though and it’s an optional house rule, almost all of us have said that he can use full points but HE insists on the handicap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah zone mortalis is awesome

A true 30 gentlemen!

Yeah he is, really nice bloke too!

In fact pretty much every member of our club is a top notch person, can only think of one person who is... that guy haha

 hordrak wrote:
My local gaming group has installed some restrictions in games of 30k and primarily Zone mortalis. One of them is that as a Thousand Sons player I can't use Sekhmet terminators in ZM - they are considered broken withoust redemption. Also no Ahriman or Magnus, unless there is some other primarch around or you are fighting Custodes or Mechanicum. The Cult Arcana must also match the psykic powers generated, but that's something I totaly agree with.
Same goes for Custodes, especialy their Dreads. Non-legion specific stuff that is basicly forbidden is the Sicaran Arcus, Phosphex Rapiers, Crios Venetor, Scoria. But a question arises - is this stuff realy so broken that you have to ban it?

Short Answer: No.

I play Solar Auxilia and I can make a list to play against all of the above. I find it unfair on you that players are restricting your army for their enjoyment, if they are a Legion player then they know they have the tools to deal with any "Problem Unit". Though I agree with the Cult Arcana change from a thematic point of view. However this all just fits under the "Don't be a WAAC".

Custodes are strong, get over it. Take that Typhon and Warcrimes Rapiers.

The only thing broken in 30k is Phosphex. It needs serious changing and certain armies can spam phosphex like Iron warriors and Death Guard which can make them seriously unfun to play against. Otherwise 30k is a well balanced system.

redbeast001 wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
My local gaming group has installed some restrictions in games of 30k and primarily Zone mortalis. One of them is that as a Thousand Sons player I can't use Sekhmet terminators in ZM - they are considered broken withoust redemption. Also no Ahriman or Magnus, unless there is some other primarch around or you are fighting Custodes or Mechanicum. The Cult Arcana must also match the psykic powers generated, but that's something I totaly agree with.
Same goes for Custodes, especialy their Dreads. Non-legion specific stuff that is basicly forbidden is the Sicaran Arcus, Phosphex Rapiers, Crios Venetor, Scoria. But a question arises - is this stuff realy so broken that you have to ban it?

Short Answer: No.

I play Solar Auxilia and I can make a list to play against all of the above. I find it unfair on you that players are restricting your army for their enjoyment, if they are a Legion player then they know they have the tools to deal with any "Problem Unit". Though I agree with the Cult Arcana change from a thematic point of view. However this all just fits under the "Don't be a WAAC".

Custodes are strong, get over it. Take that Typhon and Warcrimes Rapiers.

Custodes are not “powerful” custodes are broken, solar aux is powerful, borderline broken.

Custodes can spread out 3” so that typhon is less effective, a singular unit depending on points and easy to disable for custodes... good advice

War crimes rapiers, phosphex I assume you mean are terrible against custodes, ap3 and only str4, only does a single wound.

If your going to give advice on how to beat custodes do it properly, don’t just slap down two units that are NOT good at killing custodes and call it a day, one is too many points and too easily countered, the other is ap3.

So let’s here your advice, tactics and tips on beating the most broken army GW has ever produced.

Best way to take out Custodes is Sniper Vet spam with plasma guns. Just outflank all over the place to keep the tiny Custodes force spread out and pick off wounds with rending as you grab objectives and feed the odd unit to the meatgrinder to keep them occupied.

It's not fool proof. Custodes are broken. But weight of fire is infinitely more effective than trying to match them with your own death stars

As for is there broken stuff? That's like asking does sun rise from the east. If it's game that uses point system there's always broken stuff.

tneva82 wrote:
As for is there broken stuff? That's like asking does sun rise from the east. If it's game that uses point system there's always broken stuff.

Tis true, wasnt always so with HH, the worst offender was the Moritat and Lorgar, they fixed both of those, now we have Custodes and Tson/Space wolves, Wolves are just very good, Tsons are broken depending on what you take, Custodes are just plain broken.

Well, I never used the GotCK RoW, the most broken thing. Maybe when I get Magnus and have a game against Mechanicum or Custodes, just to outcheese them. Unless you spamm Sekhmet you are not that big of a threat. Ok, Aspyx shells on a ML1 veteran squad with Divination are awesome, but once thay get out of a Rhino they die rather quich as every anty-infantry unit will shoot at them. Khenetai are a glasshammer and can either wipe ot half the opposing force or get shot to pieces before they get to do something. You can go cheese mode and take a preator in cata armour, take the Raptora cult and roll on biomancy. But no one ever forbids reaching a genttlemans agreement on that.
The bane of my army is always the same - phosphex. No psycik stuff ill help you if the enemy has a siege breaker and 2+ phosphex launcher squads.

 Formosa wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
I sold my Thousand Son's because I did not enjoy easy mode. Book 7 shook ALOT of things up. That said I really do not agree with people altering the rules, points cost etc. The best way I have found in our local group is follow the golden rule.

"Don't be a dick"

Sure I had Magnus and 20 Sekhmet, but I only rolled that in when people wanted to play against that.

ZM is a brutal game and a lot of Legions are brutal for it. My Luna Wolves are amazing I basically have BS5 all the time.

It’s a bit difficult when custodes are almost universally 20-30% too cheap in the heresy, not the only offenders though and it’s an optional house rule, almost all of us have said that he can use full points but HE insists on the handicap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah zone mortalis is awesome

In my experience Custodes in 30k are a weird out-of-context problem; they're not universally too powerful, but they hard-counter elite/small-model-count builds tremendously well and are hard-countered themselves by swarms and strong Invulnerable saves. They sort of throw a wrench into the normal logic of making an all-comers 30k army by being a skew list that's countered by things that aren't normally that useful.

I do wonder if trying to tone down/wind back some of the more excessive phosphex/low-AP-blast-spam might make the Custodes less of a problem by proxy because you'd remove some of the barriers preventing people from using the twenty-man hidden-powerfist squads that give Custodes trouble. That said I currently regard Custodes in the same vein as Questoris, in a sense that some amount of tailoring on your opponent's part is sort of necessary to make a good non-degenerate sort of game happen.

If you haven’t played against 3x units of 3x quad mortars with phosphex, don’t tell me “Everything is balanced! Tee-Hee!”

That said, I LURVE playing in the AdeptiCon Fluff events. BESTEST funs EVAH!

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
I sold my Thousand Son's because I did not enjoy easy mode. Book 7 shook ALOT of things up. That said I really do not agree with people altering the rules, points cost etc. The best way I have found in our local group is follow the golden rule.

"Don't be a dick"

Sure I had Magnus and 20 Sekhmet, but I only rolled that in when people wanted to play against that.

ZM is a brutal game and a lot of Legions are brutal for it. My Luna Wolves are amazing I basically have BS5 all the time.

It’s a bit difficult when custodes are almost universally 20-30% too cheap in the heresy, not the only offenders though and it’s an optional house rule, almost all of us have said that he can use full points but HE insists on the handicap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah zone mortalis is awesome

In my experience Custodes in 30k are a weird out-of-context problem; they're not universally too powerful, but they hard-counter elite/small-model-count builds tremendously well and are hard-countered themselves by swarms and strong Invulnerable saves. They sort of throw a wrench into the normal logic of making an all-comers 30k army by being a skew list that's countered by things that aren't normally that useful.

I do wonder if trying to tone down/wind back some of the more excessive phosphex/low-AP-blast-spam might make the Custodes less of a problem by proxy because you'd remove some of the barriers preventing people from using the twenty-man hidden-powerfist squads that give Custodes trouble. That said I currently regard Custodes in the same vein as Questoris, in a sense that some amount of tailoring on your opponent's part is sort of necessary to make a good non-degenerate sort of game happen.

The problem with that is that custodes will murder that 20man unit, by challenging the seargent and killing enough of the squad to sweep them afterwards.

Never had the pleasure of facing Custodes, but I've heard they are crazy.

My Mechanicum has also been called broken many times, especially when playing Cybernetica. I think it's mostly because a lot of players in my local meta use many vehicles, and if there's anything that Mechanicum can handle, it's vehicles. Infantry heavy lists are much worse for me to deal with. I lost a match against Ultramarines yesterday because of just that.

I don’t find mechanicum too difficult to deal with as dark angels are a pretty solid counter to them, between molecular acid rounds and ironwing +1 to wound roll meaning vets wound them on a 3+ and ap2 on a 5+ and the amazing terranic greatsword dealing straight up instant death, when I played world eaters though they were a tough nut to crack.

Jorim wrote:
...The problem with that is that custodes will murder that 20man unit, by challenging the seargent and killing enough of the squad to sweep them afterwards.

If the Custodian squad's big enough to be 2-3x the cost of the Astartes, sure. But put a big squad into a small squad of Custodians, refuse the challenge on the first round so they can't kill the sergeant (he's got artificer armour and they're only AP3 unless they charged), get the charge off yourself, and/or have a powerfist hidden on a non-character model and you'll grind them down.

Addendum: I suspect my experience with Custodes may be coloured somewhat; most of my live games with them have been against World Eaters running Surlak/Inductii, who are uniquely well-suited to grinding down Custodians since they're coming in at S6, so the grunts actually kill them. I still think there are efficient counters to Custodians that aren't used because they're bad against almost everything else, though.

 Formosa wrote:

redbeast001 wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
My local gaming group has installed some restrictions in games of 30k and primarily Zone mortalis. One of them is that as a Thousand Sons player I can't use Sekhmet terminators in ZM - they are considered broken withoust redemption. Also no Ahriman or Magnus, unless there is some other primarch around or you are fighting Custodes or Mechanicum. The Cult Arcana must also match the psykic powers generated, but that's something I totaly agree with.
Same goes for Custodes, especialy their Dreads. Non-legion specific stuff that is basicly forbidden is the Sicaran Arcus, Phosphex Rapiers, Crios Venetor, Scoria. But a question arises - is this stuff realy so broken that you have to ban it?

Short Answer: No.

I play Solar Auxilia and I can make a list to play against all of the above. I find it unfair on you that players are restricting your army for their enjoyment, if they are a Legion player then they know they have the tools to deal with any "Problem Unit". Though I agree with the Cult Arcana change from a thematic point of view. However this all just fits under the "Don't be a WAAC".

Custodes are strong, get over it. Take that Typhon and Warcrimes Rapiers.

Custodes are not “powerful” custodes are broken, solar aux is powerful, borderline broken.

Custodes can spread out 3” so that typhon is less effective, a singular unit depending on points and easy to disable for custodes... good advice

War crimes rapiers, phosphex I assume you mean are terrible against custodes, ap3 and only str4, only does a single wound.

If your going to give advice on how to beat custodes do it properly, don’t just slap down two units that are NOT good at killing custodes and call it a day, one is too many points and too easily countered, the other is ap3.

So let’s here your advice, tactics and tips on beating the most broken army GW has ever produced.

Got a problem with vehicles? Take a Venator Sicarian, Valdor, Shadowsword, or a Spartan with your favourite flavour of Charging AT.
Got a problem with Infantry? Gun them down with Plasma, S10 weapons, volkite, force them to take mass saves and they die like Terminators or stomp them to death with Knights
Are you playing Traitors? Spam daemons into them, bog them down and play the long game.

Play smarter. Every player makes mistakes so use that to your advantage. Use every trick in your army book no matter how silly or "unthematic" it may seem, these are the Legio Custodes they are meant to beat you.

That's my tips. Don't have to take them, don't have to like them.

 Formosa wrote:
...So let’s here your advice, tactics and tips on beating the most broken army GW has ever produced.

Wait, missed this one. Custodes are more broken than 7e Wraithknight/Scatbike lists, musical-wounds Paladins, Invisibility deathstars, 550pts-of-free-Razorbacks, summon engines, Smasf***er, Baneblades in 750pt armies, and 3e Biel-Tan?

(I'd say calling them in the top three most broken lists in 30k right now alongside Guard of the Crimson King and Hellstorm-template Questoris is fair, but "most broken army GW has ever produced" seems a bit of a stretch to me.)

I can personally atest how broken Custodes are. And when I mentioned that when they came out, people were calling me names...because their opponents used sub par list from boxes...bunch of dudes walking across the map...yea, no gak it's not that big problem to beat something like that.

Tankibune costs around 40% less than primarch, yet depending on opposing primarch, he can hold him whole game tied if not defeat with his 3++ rerolable save, imune to instant death, good luck killing him

Jetbikes are rediciously survivable and pack A LOT firepower, not to mention good save, fast, can moop floor in cc if they charge most marine units.

Their transports are one of the worst offenders. Yes, not that cheap, but with good armor, jink and I don't remember all what, good luck taking them down. You just brough meltas behind their back? Oh well, they jinked half of your hits, and have armored ceramite on top of it.
Their guns are all very much capable of mowing down 3+ marines.

Termies are also very good. Each with 3 wounds if I remember, all independent charachters so he can shift those wounds around, you also get -1 to hit them if I am not mistaken, so almost everthing hits them on 5+ in cc.

Their dreadnought is marginaly more expensive than legion one, yet is way better...not to mention strenght D when chargin?

If your opponent knows how to play, and brings a good list, it's almost if not impossible to defeat them. Even with 25% less points than you have, it's very challenging if not impossible.

The Custodes are a tough nut to crack. It is crack-able, but it requires a specialized list for it, and I hate list tailoring for a specific army in 30K. The style of list that is great against the Custodes sucks against everything else.

One of the things that I always liked about Warmachine and Hordes was that you could bring two lists to a tournament, look at your opponent's two lists, and then you both decide which list to play. Whatever happened after that, you at least had the chance to pick the right list, instead of just looking at your opponent's list and getting that sinking feeling that they are going to walk all over you and you will lose.

 kronk wrote:
If you haven’t played against 3x units of 3x quad mortars with phosphex, don’t tell me “Everything is balanced! Tee-Hee!”

That said, I LURVE playing in the AdeptiCon Fluff events. BESTEST funs EVAH!

One of the things that always bugged me about the 30k community was that there is a vocal segment that simply refuses to acknowledge imbalance in the game. I mean, I get it, most 30k players have a more casual/narrative bent, and I think want to believe that the game is balanced, but hanging on to a fairy tale gets old.

I've used custards in some mortalis it was so brutally one sided I've sworn to never use them in that game more again.

I've faced them with my wolves my deathsworn minced two squads because they got the charge and can attack after dying.

 Polonius wrote:

 kronk wrote:
If you haven’t played against 3x units of 3x quad mortars with phosphex, don’t tell me “Everything is balanced! Tee-Hee!”

That said, I LURVE playing in the AdeptiCon Fluff events. BESTEST funs EVAH!

One of the things that always bugged me about the 30k community was that there is a vocal segment that simply refuses to acknowledge imbalance in the game. I mean, I get it, most 30k players have a more casual/narrative bent, and I think want to believe that the game is balanced, but hanging on to a fairy tale gets old.

As a Narrative player, oh I fully admit the game has balance issues!
-three full units of phosphex quad mortars
-Most of the Custodes list in smaller games/ZM
-Thousand Sons depending on the list.

In my experience 30k is the biggest case of needing self regulation for gaming and/or discussing what sort of game people want to play before hand. And there are cases of where fluffy IS broken. A Psychic heavy Thousand Sons list is pretty game breaking, a Phosphex heavy DG army is pretty game breaking.

1. Certainly Custodes.

Whilst it's entirely possible to gear one's army to take them on when you know you're facing them, it's still a risky venture because they are so powerful. This also presents a problem for tournaments and leagues where you'd be aiming for a balanced army to take on all comers.

One of the ideas I've had to counter this would be a SoS 'tax' whereby you must take one unit of them for every unit of Custards.

2. Thousand Sons.

The new red rulebook alleviates some of their ott power, but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

3. Quad Mortar Spam.

Basically putting on a hat that reads 'I'm a dick', there are counters to it but it's so widely recognized as the mark of a spanker that it's rarely seen now and I'd suggest tourneys and leagues can just self regulate against it, rather than with the two above due to them being armies instead of a broken unit.


But hell yes broken stuff exists.

I wonder if changing Phosphex Canisters to AP4 single shot large blast would alleviate the problem somewhat.


Another problem I see, not so much with over powered gear, but with general army choice is the blandness in some lists. I have seen a lot of 30k armies that look a lot like this:

Praetor with Paragon Blade
Terminator Bodyguard
Spartan

2x Veteran Squads in Rhinos

Phosphex/Shatter Quad Mortars

Whirlwind Scorpius

Leviathan + Pod

Lightning

Typhon/Primarch


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.