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Hi All!

I'm starting out a fledgling Guard army (shameless plug: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/758544.page). One of the Heavy Support options I'm looking at is a Manticore (or 2!), but as I have never played Guard before, I wanted to see how competitive these little rocket launchers were?

At first glance, the pros I see are that it can fire without needing LOS, the weapon is pretty hard-hitting (if my math is right, a Manticore is cheaper than a Leman Russ with a Battle cannon, but hits harder), and I can hide it from my opponents for a turn or two at least. The cons I see are that it can't be buffed by any stratagems or orders and it's a little squishy for a vehicle.

Guard players out there, how have you found your Manticores to perform on the battlefield?

I always try to bring one when bringing a TAC Heavy support team. (Hydra, Wyvern, Manticore)

It suffers too much from 2d6 vs a battle cannon that can be ordered to re-roll both dice (Assuming Cadian)

With Cadia it gets to re-roll 1's which is nice.

Being out of LoS is huuuge though. I would bring one if you want.

Stick it as far away from everything else as possible and enjoy the psychological effect of your enemy never being safe.

I like Manticores, but most everything non-abhuman, non-deathstrike is competitive to some degree in the Guard dex.

In general, Artillery need infantry screens to be valuable... which is super easy to do with Guard. Take 2-3 Artillery Pieces, 3-4 Infantry Squads, A Company Commander for Orders and a Commissar for Ld and away you run. Run Catachans and add Harker to get a Reroll shot # / Reroll 1's to hit for everything nearby, and laugh yourself silly. Or a Master of Ordnance if you're on a budget / don't like the Catachan doctrine. I'm not 100 % sure of the doctrines as I just use the Index, but Flamers and bonus strength in CC makes the Catachan Guardsmen pretty damned scary as speed bumps, and it's easy enough to make a brigade / battalion out of that clump of dudes, with enough left over to make a spearhead group to go out and capture stuff in a 1500 pt or more game.

Math-wise, I think the Bassie gives better damage per point, but the Manticore can really front-load damage for Alpha strike goodness, so I prefer that. I'm not really sure anymore, I crunched the numbers before I lost interest in running "Optimised Guard" which was quite some time ago.

Artillery aren't main-line tanks and should never be treated as such. If your opponent gets LOS and is within 12" of an artillery piece, something went wrong.

I was a huge fan of the Manticore (to the tune of owning 4 of them) however I've changed my mind have moved towards basilisks. And on top of that I've left the Catachan camp for the Cadian camp for one reason and one reason only: The Lost Relic of Cadia. Looking at most of my local tournaments almost 1/2 the armies are some form of chaos which means I whip out my relic and declare a turn of rerolling hits and wounds from all of my cadian artillery within 12" of the bearer. That's like the ultimate alpha strike as you can reach anywhere on the board (can certainly do the same with Manticores).

Manticore pros:
* Higher strength shot.
* More shots per turn on average

Basilisks pros:
* Better AP
* You can run up to 9 if you really want to
* Shoots all game long vs manticore's 4 shots and done
* 25 or so points cheaper

The AP difference is a big one for me and was a big factor in me moving away from Manticores. I noticed my Bassies seemed to do more damage than their Manticore brethren thanks to a better AP

Like I said, the math is close vs most targets.

Regarding the 4 shots, I don't play in tournaments but I've literally NEVER (and I literally mean literally never) had the 4-shot limitation make a difference in outcome of a game.

I have had games where a 5th / 6th shot would have been nice, but it has never changed the outcome of a game. If you fire your artillery for 4 consecutive turns and had the opportunity for a 5th round of fire, things are going GOOD for you and you're going to win. Because your opponent has nothing of value left to contest the game.

While I exaggerate this last point, I stand by the literally never changing the outcome of a game. Not in 6th edition, 7th or 8th. Maybe in 5th edition, but I don't recall that clearly and I wasn't using them then, I don't think.


In terms of acquiring second hand models, Bassies are probably the cheaper, more available option, so if you're considering buying a battery worth of tanks, you would probably be better off going the Bassie route if you're looking at the financial aspect.

Very competitive. Bring more than one for redundancy.

Tangential question ... are Deathstrikes even worth considering in a competitive army, or are they more of a fluffy, fun, narrative choice?

I think I know the answer ... but the model looks amazingly cool ...

Deathstrikes are junk, junk and even more junk. They are so junk even fairly casual player like me is struggling to justify them and I have used stompa which is basically auto-lose button...

As for manticore vs basilisk it's about same amount of hits per points(since basilisk costs more and basilisk rolls extra dice pick highest which partially compensates for 2d6 shots) so it's basically extra S or extra AP. And I find the extra AP worth it more often. T5, T9 and T10 targets aren't that common.

One benefit manticore does have is bit easier to hide but how big difference this makes depends a lot on what terrain you have. Some boards will have no good for either, others will hide basilisk just as well as manticore.
Either way neither is bad exactly.