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2018/06/15 19:55:13
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
So monolith will be doing a kickstarter for claustrophobia remake at the end of the year but the kicker will the be the game is already done and is on its way to shipping hubs by the time it starts.
Here's the full text of the announcement from Facebook.
MONOLITH·FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2018
As you know, Monolith has always had the ambition to use Kickstarter not as a tool for protection against risk, but as a tool for better value distribution between players and publishers. As such, we have systematically used the platform to carry out projects that would not have been profitable in an intermediated circuit, due in particular to their huge investments in development and their material content (often excessive). Up until now our offers have always been extremely advantageous for our pledgers in return for the risk that they accept (long delivery times, delay risks, errors, defects…). With time and experience (lessons learnt from previous teething problems) we have considerably improved, especially via the use of specialists for each of the key positions of the edition (at the forefront of which are Game Design and Testing, but also production and logistics: basically all these positions that remain in the wings and do not feature central stage during a campaign, but which are essential to the successful completion of a game). Strengthened by this experience and the cash flow released by our previous projects (Conan, Mythic Battles, Batman...) we have decided to take an even bigger risk by assuming everything, while maintaining an unbeatable offer for our pledgers (a value saving of up to double that of a store-bought game from an intermediated network). To do this we are going to experiment with a new model that is the result of what we have been trying to achieve since the creation of the company.
Resin miniature, sculpted by Martin Lavat
How are we going to proceed?
It is very simple. At the moment we are using our cash flow to not only develop, but also to produce and deliver boxes of Claustrophobia 1643 to our hubs (5000 to our US hub and 5000 to our European hub), without any backer or distributer having previously ordered them (so without the guarantee of selling them as is usually the case in a classic circuit or on Kickstarter). Obviously we have met with the Kickstarter officials to make sure that this is not a problem for the platform. As such, our pledgers will neither have to advance cash nor wait a long time before being delivered, or even fear that there will be a difference between what is being shown during the campaign and what they will get once they are delivered… because all the games will already be waiting for their future owners in the warehouses of our local partners. Many of our supporters will be able to play and manipulate the final product even before the campaign and all will be delivered within the six weeks that follow. There will be no post-campaign pledge manager and we will just use a KS online survey to collect pledger details.
One of the tile by David Demaret
How are the savings made by the disintermediation going to be shared?
Here again it's very simple. Today, in the traditional market, more than 60% of the value of a game is retained by intermediation (distributors + stores). We simply propose to our pledgers to equitably distribute this value between them and us. By doing so, we will be able to consolidate our margins, control our prices and ensure that we can continue to invest heavily in the development of our projects. At the same time, without having to wait or take any risk, you will get, each time, a much better bargain than anything you would get in a store.
Resin miniature sculpted by Martin Lavat
Why change a model that works?
Several reasons:
Crowdfunding has evolved
It would be unrealistic (or perhaps denial) to not see that Kickstarter and crowdfunding in general have become markets in their own right where fierce competition prevails. Monolith has always had the ambition to be an innovator in these markets and especially not a follower (The micro campaign Conan: The Book of Set was a test. We simply underestimated the demand. With 10,000 copies of Claustrophobia 1643, each will have had time to decide). If we want to stay at the forefront of these markets, we must continue to innovate.
Let’s talk more about the game and less about money:
Over the past years, we have seen forum discussions gradually shifting away from the games themselves (their systems and universes) to their performance in terms of funding. We ourselves have participated in this movement and today we regret the relegation of fun and playability to the background. The game needs to be put back into the center of the conversations.
The stretch-goal system is only a marketing gimmick:
We know it all the better because we do it ourselves. Today stretch-goals are already included in the campaign financing plan and serve only as an adjustment variable. They are stretched or limited according to the sums collected, but they are never "gifts" offered to the backers. Whatever its outcome, you will have more or less the same value in stretch-goals at the end of the campaign. We might as well be done with these marketing gimmicks and instead present a straightforward offer, improved by the value of these stretch-goals, from the start.
Attracting new pledgers:
Everyone will have noticed that, campaign after campaign, the rate of new pledgers is dropping, to the extent of being ridiculously low today (often under 10%). This is due to the proportionally increasing number of "regulars", but also because the pool of new backers ready to pay more than a year in advance for a game with hypothetical qualities is drying up (while at the same time the number of new projects is exploding). If we want to return to higher rates (in other words bring new blood onto KS), we must attract a less "adventurous" population onto the platform, those who are ready to accept drastically reduced delivery dates and very little risk (of delay, non-compliance ...).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/15 20:15:22
2018/06/15 20:21:16
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
WAAAAAHOOOOO!
Monolith is remaking the best darn dungeon crawler out there and the thing is already done!!!
I can't believe how lucky we all are. In case you don't know, Claustrophobia is a fantastic dungeon crawler boardgame with really interesting and tough choices that oozes theme.
2018/06/15 20:35:46
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Lots of original people are involved as well, designers and sculptors.
Croc (INS / MV, Conan: Nordheim, Helldorado, TIME Stories: Expedition - Endurance, Helldorado, etc.) assisted by Laurent Pouchain (Okko, Congo, etc.) and the Monolith design team worked together to conceptualize this new version of Claustrophobia, and we hope that it will appeal to you as much as it does to us.
...
We will unveil the new sculptures by Martin Lavat, Gautier Giroud, Stephane Simon and Stéphane Nguyen soon
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/15 22:08:47
2018/06/15 22:21:16
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Monkeysloth wrote: They had an update after mythic battles 1.5. They said end of year but I guess September would be possible as they said it will be at gencon.
Lots of original people are involved as well, designers and sculptors.
Croc (INS / MV, Conan: Nordheim, Helldorado, TIME Stories: Expedition - Endurance, Helldorado, etc.) assisted by Laurent Pouchain (Okko, Congo, etc.) and the Monolith design team worked together to conceptualize this new version of Claustrophobia, and we hope that it will appeal to you as much as it does to us.
...
We will unveil the new sculptures by Martin Lavat, Gautier Giroud, Stephane Simon and Stéphane Nguyen soon
Wow, they really lined up a great cast if sculptors. Some of the Hell Dorado stuff is pretty hit or miss, but the Claustrophobia sculpts are all great.
2018/06/15 22:31:43
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Well for the time they were good. I've got Claustrophobia and the plastic quality doesn't hold up at all.
I'm really hoping the next Conan is the same, being fully produced and sold on KSer, as it was supposed to be early next year and it's my go to for RPG figures.
2018/06/15 23:46:37
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Monkeysloth wrote: Well for the time they were good. I've got Claustrophobia and the plastic quality doesn't hold up at all.
I'm really hoping the next Conan is the same, being fully produced and sold on KSer, as it was supposed to be early next year and it's my go to for RPG figures.
The prepainted plastic isn't great quality, but the sculpts are good imo (dynamism, proportions, pose, character, etc.)
2018/09/17 07:31:37
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Unfortunately this has been delayed until november :( Apparently the factory that is producing the game got so much new business they can't produce 10 000 copies as fast as Monolith wanted them to, and rather than lower the amount of available games they decided to postpone.
2018/09/17 10:15:58
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
How did I miss this? Claustrophobia is an excellent game, and the Hell Dorado world is one of my favorite settings of any game out there. The price looks really reasonable too, considering I no longer have a dungeon crawler in my board game collection I will definitely be picking this up.
2018/09/18 00:21:06
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Man, this reminds me I need to grab the expansion with the Sicarians, so at least my original copy will be complete.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2018/09/18 02:59:21
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Recasting the OG Helldorado figures in plastic would be a great start.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2018/09/18 11:59:43
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Here is the news from Monolith about the Kickstarter
Dear Followers,
Our manufacturer has just announced that unfortunately they are no longer able to produce all the boxes we were going to put on the market in October in a single print campaign, due to a large number of orders at the end of this year. No less than three "runs" are going to be necessary to produce and assemble our 10,000 packages, while satisfying the rest of their customers. However, the boxes of the last "run" are not going to be available in time to be delivered to our pledgers before Christmas 2018, meaning that only 60% of pledgers would have their game at the foot of their tree. We are aiming for a performance of 100% concerning Claustrophobia 1643 and this is not negotiable. We have therefore had to decide between only offering 6,000 boxes and pushing back the entire operation. We have made the painful choice to delay the KS campaign to Tuesday, November 6th to ensure full delivery in January, so as to minimize the time between the moment your account will be debited and the time when the game will actually be in your possession. This is the challenge of this test campaign; Christmas would have been a significant commercial bonus for us that, unfortunately, we will have to pass on for this launch.
Please note that it is OUR cash that is out today and under no circumstances is YOUR money being held hostage. We are the first to be penalized by this postponement, which delays the moment when we will recover our investment.
We are really very sorry that you will not have the game for Christmas, but we did feel it was more constructive to shift the entire operation rather than lure 40% of you with impossible promises and then potentially have to offer flowery excuses. That would go against everything Monolith has built back up since the fiasco of the delivery of Conan.
It is our intention to do our absolute best when it comes to delivering what we promise. This decision to delay the Claustrophobia 1643 campaign represents our cautious approach. Thanks for sticking with us!
Sincerely,
The Monolith Team.
Find me @
http://www.boardgameseverybodyshould.com/
2018/09/18 17:11:55
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Im not that impressed at all, its an abuse of what crowdfunding is all about, its nothing but a pre-order and of cause KS wont have a problem with it, as all they care about is their $$$ cut, What KS does is different to what KSTOS/U say is allowed, ie not having an already produced product to sell on KS, creators are not allowed to have more than 1 project going at 1 time, KS will not follow up on failling/failed campaigns etc etc.
Sorry for the rant but im getting fed up with these big companies using KS as a pre-ordering system, its hurting the "little guys" who are using KS for the crowdfunding idea the platform was set up for
2018/09/18 18:30:39
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Original Timmy wrote: Im not that impressed at all, its an abuse of what crowdfunding is all about, its nothing but a pre-order and of cause KS wont have a problem with it, as all they care about is their $$$ cut, What KS does is different to what KSTOS/U say is allowed, ie not having an already produced product to sell on KS, creators are not allowed to have more than 1 project going at 1 time, KS will not follow up on failling/failed campaigns etc etc.
Sorry for the rant but im getting fed up with these big companies using KS as a pre-ordering system, its hurting the "little guys" who are using KS for the crowdfunding idea the platform was set up for
I am in total agreement with you, but this has been an issue for years now.
To the point where when people say KS isn't a pre-order system I roll my eyes and laugh. Sure, maybe on paper and definitely in 2009 when it started, but in 2018? It is a fething pre-order system that no longer really caters to the entrepreneurs and creatives it was intended for.
Just like eBay used to be a site for people clearing out their attics and garages to make some extra cash, and now it is simply a collection of e-businesses.
2018/09/18 23:30:20
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
I have literally backed one boardgame (Darkstar Corsairs) where the entire point of the KS campaign was to raise the money to pay for production and art, where the designer was literally a guy in a house, unaffiliated with any company. Even that had production problems in China.
Yeah, KS is mostly a preorder system nowadays. At the very least, each stretch goal is something they usually already plan to produce.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/18 23:31:41
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2018/09/18 23:52:40
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
AegisGrimm wrote: I have literally backed one boardgame (Darkstar Corsairs) where the entire point of the KS campaign was to raise the money to pay for production and art, where the designer was literally a guy in a house, unaffiliated with any company. Even that had production problems in China.
Yeah, KS is mostly a preorder system nowadays. At the very least, each stretch goal is something they usually already plan to produce.
Which is sad, especially when people get so turned off of Kickstarter due to failed/extremely late projects that they only back campaigns from established Creators (I am guilty of this). Further distancing Kickstarter from its intended purpose and feeding into the pre-order nonsense.
2018/09/19 00:05:36
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
I'm not sure it is such a bad thing. Effectively, there was the golden age of KS a few years back when anybody with a pretty dream, some concept art and enthusiasm could raise a ridiculous amount of money on KS. Then, a bunch of those projects never delivered, delivered late or crappy quality miniatures, a bunch of people got burned and the community collectively got wiser about who we give our money to.
Now backers expect a lot of the work to be done upfront so creators have some skin in the game and because we've figured out that things like good production samples are a good signal that creators can deliver what they promise.
There are still a ton of games that get the capital they need to launch from KS, even if they are mostly "done" in terms of design and sculpting. Look at Anno Domini 1666 for a great example of a game from a small hardworking studio that never would have gotten launched without KS.
2018/09/19 05:56:14
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
There are still plenty of projects in KS that wouldn't be produced via the normal way.
For example all of the big boardgames that would be too expensive to sell in shops, but got done because of KS. I don't think Kingdom Death would be a thing without KS money (for one example). Or Cthulhu Wars. Or Mythic Battles: Pantheon. Or 7th continent.
(or Exploding Kittens... )
I have the results of the last chamber: You are a horrible person. That's what it says: A horrible person... We weren't even testing for that.
2018/09/19 15:44:22
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
The argument that KSers aren't for projects like this is ran it's course several years ago. Kickstarter the company is fine with it, the Tabletop community is fine with it -- hell we're even at a point that unless you're a really big player in the boardgame space you can't even sell a game unless it's on Kickstarter.
Backing the "little guy" is great and all (and I have my fair share of those I have backed) but those rarely get me what I want which is loads of cheap plastic to use in other games. Yep I could follow the makers of those games to any platform but, again, it's been decided by gamers that Kickstarter is that platform as all the attempts to move away from it haven't gone that well.
2018/09/19 15:48:20
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
Gallahad wrote: I'm not sure it is such a bad thing. Effectively, there was the golden age of KS a few years back when anybody with a pretty dream, some concept art and enthusiasm could raise a ridiculous amount of money on KS. Then, a bunch of those projects never delivered, delivered late or crappy quality miniatures, a bunch of people got burned and the community collectively got wiser about who we give our money to.
Now backers expect a lot of the work to be done upfront so creators have some skin in the game and because we've figured out that things like good production samples are a good signal that creators can deliver what they promise.
Absolutely, the way things have shook out with Kickstarter is better for backers, but I'd argue if Kickstarter had better enforcement of "bad" projects that maybe this outcome of Kickstarter becoming a defacto pre-ordering system wouldn't have come about. There was probably a point (maybe around 2012-2014) when Kickstarter as a company could have addressed the issues plaguing their system, but they didn't, and now we have what Kickstarter has become. My only lament is that the barrier for entry into Kickstarter now, in 2018, is much higher than it was during the early days. That means that there are some projects that won't see the light of day because the upfront investment, which Kickstarter could have provided years ago, isn't available to have the polished sort of campaign needed to successfully fund. Yes, it cuts a lot of chaff out, but I can't help but think there are some lost opportunities being discarded as well.
2018/09/19 18:23:46
Subject: Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
I'm also in the boat that there is nothing wrong with what Monolith is using Kickstarter for. They have obtained Kickstarter's permission, and to be fair companies have essentially been doing this for years (*cough*coolmini*cough*) though those companies have already planned to include all the stretch goals but use them deceptively to obtain more money, and also use Kickstarter to avoid risk as they often haven't started production.
Monolith, if anything, is being more honest than most be being straight forward with us about what they are doing. They also already invested the money, and will have product ready to ship at the end of the Kickstarter.
And to say Kickstarter isn't being used as intended (to help small companies/ individuals launch their product) isn't really true. In the last year I have backed successful projects for Relicblade (which is a very small company - one man actually that got his game started through KS), and Red Box Games (again, it's just Tre). I think now we are just getting to the point where people aren't going to back just anything, and are skeptical of companies who are promising a lot with no track record (Looking at you Prodos, only took my 4 years to get all my stuff from AvP).
2018/09/19 19:24:53
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
> And to say Kickstarter isn't being used as intended (to help small companies/ individuals launch their product) isn't really true.
Yeah. Wake me up when Walmart uses KS for an upgrade of its inventory supply chain software.
"For the little guys" was last year's (or the year before)'s Kool-Aid. On the About page, KS says, "Our mission is to help bring creative projects to life". Not small projects. Not one-man projects. Creative projects.
Monolith's project qualifies, although I suspect there's a middleware variant that allows online customers to check the number of copies left in stock.
For those who like numbers, KS takes a percentage of funding. Pretty obviously, this means that "creative projects" which rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars fill up the KS coffers more than, say, that guy who's making dungeon tiles out of insulation foam. By hand.
More insidiously, KS provides no advertising for a project. This automagically screens out creators who have less social media advertising experience, as well as less of a pre-existing customer base, than creators who already have experience selling stuff online. To some extent, this also screens out inexperienced creators, who have higher rates of project failure.
> if Kickstarter had better enforcement of "bad" projects
As for "bad" projects, this means you bring in the letter-writing lawyers, and potential argument of de facto protecting its customer base. KS has, imo, done its best to distance itself from projects to avoid any liability. And, IMO, if KS were to screen projects, it *would* be in their best interests to favor companies that have already created product, much less "pre-orders". This would make KS even less of a platform for helping "small" companies. (Actually, it would make it more like an OLGS...)
Personally, I'm for any sales method which cuts out a middleman who provides no value to the consumer. Unlike, say, Magic the Gathering and sometimes miniature wargaming, today's gamer no longer needs a hobby store retailer in the boardgame market. BGG has supplanted the employee's advice, Meetup, public locations, and home provide space for gaming. And, without the 40%+ discount that the retail-distributor model has (which does *not* guarantee they will carry a manufacturer's product), gamers can receive much more for their gaming dollar. You are *still* free to support retail sales, online game stores, and other sales channels besides KS.
Finally, as Steve Jackson said, if KS wasn't allowing these "big" crowdfunding projects, some other platform would. I doubt anyone is here because of KS. They're here because of the creators. And KS knows that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/19 19:27:09
Not a fan of the quote function or what? Your post was a mess to read.
ced1106 wrote: > And to say Kickstarter isn't being used as intended (to help small companies/ individuals launch their product) isn't really true.
Yeah. Wake me up when Walmart uses KS for an upgrade of its inventory supply chain software.
"For the little guys" was last year's (or the year before)'s Kool-Aid. On the About page, KS says, "Our mission is to help bring creative projects to life". Not small projects. Not one-man projects. Creative projects.
Nice Walmart strawman, but it kinda points out the issue with your argument in general. Of course Walmart wouldn't use Kickstarter to upgrade their infrastructure because they are a multi-billion dollar company and don't need to rely on crowd funding to make upgrades to their business. Walmart and their ilk were never Kickstarter's intended users. And while the KS terms of service may not specifically indicate that crowd funding is really meant to help start-ups and small companies get ideas off the ground, it is implied. Strongly.
Which doesn't mean that big, influential creators can't use the system. Look at actors like Zach Braff and Kristen Bell who crowdfunded movies - that is exactly what the service is for. Because those creatives didn't have the capital to make the movies happen in the first place. You know who isn't crowdfunding their next movie on Kickstarter? Disney. You know why? Because it would be ridiculous for a multi-billion dollar company to need to rely on crowdfunding to get their gak done.
Just like it is ridiculous that a company like CMON comes back to the KS well time and again, with fully developed products waiting for the print numbers.
When the rules/fluff/design development is done, when the artwork is made, the models sculpted and dozens of stretch goals pre-loaded into the system and ready to unlock--basically when everything for the game is "ready" for the productiion except for the number of units you need to produce -- then you have a fething pre-order on your hands. Full stop.
That is what many of the larger, successful KS campaigns have become. The crowd funding aspect is not needed other than to generate sales. It is the antithesis of what the platform was made for.
> if Kickstarter had better enforcement of "bad" projects
As for "bad" projects, this means you bring in the letter-writing lawyers, and potential argument of de facto protecting its customer base.
Why would Kickstarter protecting its customers (the backers) be a bad thing?
ced1106 wrote: And, IMO, if KS were to screen projects, it *would* be in their best interests to favor companies that have already created product, much less "pre-orders". This would make KS even less of a platform for helping "small" companies. (Actually, it would make it more like an OLGS....
And if they did that, Kickstarter and the companies using the system couldn't hide behind "this isn't a pre-order" as an excuse for failing to deliver goods or refunds. If Kickstarter admitted that it is a pre-order system it would allow backers more protections than they currently have because the transaction between backer and creator would be a regular retail transaction. The current system obfuscates that financial transaction as an investment, and robs the buyer of their rights.
2018/09/19 21:52:15
Subject: Re:Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith
ced1106 wrote: Finally, as Steve Jackson said, if KS wasn't allowing these "big" crowdfunding projects, some other platform would. I doubt anyone is here because of KS. They're here because of the creators. And KS knows that.
That quote pretty much kills any counter argument on why these project shouldn't be on KSer. They're on KSer because KSer wants them there because it brings them in money both from the project itself and all the eyes large projects bring into KSer that may never have used it before and will now back other things. No amount of whining about/to CMoN, Monolith will change that fact as this is how Kickstarter wants their platform to be used. In fact if I was one of the "little guys" i'd much prefer the larger ones on the platform then somewhere else as KSer might recommend my project to those backers or some backers might explore and find new stuff to back. I don't know why in the world I would want the big projects on a different site (even worse, their own site that I couldn't create a project on) just for that reason. I have never seen a well laid out reason why these large projects actually hurt the smaller ones (that money isn't going to go to them if Monolith isn't there) just always some psudo-outrage over "Won't someone think of the little guy" and "that's not how KSer is supposed to be used" when the company that created the platform wants it to be used that way.
)
