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I'm interested to know how the big FAQ and the latest codex releases have affected the rankings.

I've tried to group done similar units together where I think they'd steal votes from each other, or when you almost always see them run in tandem.

I'm sure I'll miss a few important ones, so let me know if one of your auto-includes is left out! I'm going to leave forge world out due to lack of familiarity with the options and because it's not generally as strong these days.

Disi Ravagers are really good and without the rule of 3 I feel you would see DE lists taking 8+ or so.

9 shots, S5, AP-3, 2 damage is solid versus a huge range of targets - and bad against very few.

This is coupled with 36" range with a 14" fly move giving you an effective range of 50" and you could assault if you really wanted to. On top of this its incredibly easy to get them in a reroll 1s to hit and wound bubble.

On top of this T5/4+ gives them a reasonable resistance to S3/S4 guns (not as good as T7/3+, but not awful) while a 5++/6+++ really boosts their survivability vs las/melta equivalents. They are vulnerable to assault cannons & massed S5 shooting (possibly autocannons too) - but you should be able to avoid that by virtue of the massive movement & range.

Maybe not the best way of looking at it, but I figure that the strongest units are probably those that you don't see spammed only because of the new Rule of 3 (or equivalently restrictive rule). Things like Shield Captains on Bikes, Plagueburst Crawlers, and Fusion Commanders come to mind. Without the limitations, I have no doubt we'd often be looking at 10+ Fusion Commanders or Banana Captains.

The BA captain is an odd one. Absolutely dirt cheap for what you get because all the real cost is tied up in strategy points.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Without the limitations, I have no doubt we'd often be looking at 10+ Fusion Commanders or Banana Captains

Players with enough models to spam captains would be fielding the regular jetbike squads instead - the big draw of the captains is the ability to buy a single box of models and then field them cheaply enough to add them to any army.

There's a lot of stuff that seems a little too good for its price point to me, but absolutely nothing else compares to how massively undercosted Custodes Jetbikes feel currently.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Maybe not the best way of looking at it, but I figure that the strongest units are probably those that you don't see spammed only because of the new Rule of 3 (or equivalently restrictive rule). Things like Shield Captains on Bikes, Plagueburst Crawlers, and Fusion Commanders come to mind. Without the limitations, I have no doubt we'd often be looking at 10+ Fusion Commanders or Banana Captains.

Tau commanders are actually more restricted than any other unit currently. They are limited to 1 per detachment in the codex anyway so they are they only unit I know of that wasn't affected by the rule of 3 as people call it.

Ahriman.

He is 130 points for the second best caster in THE GAME. He rocks a 4+ invuln, some of the best powers I the game, a plus one to cast, very versatile.

He's an auto include in any list that has a TS detachment

Tyel wrote:
Disi Ravagers are really good and without the rule of 3 I feel you would see DE lists taking 8+ or so.

9 shots, S5, AP-3, 2 damage is solid versus a huge range of targets - and bad against very few.

This is coupled with 36" range with a 14" fly move giving you an effective range of 50" and you could assault if you really wanted to. On top of this its incredibly easy to get them in a reroll 1s to hit and wound bubble.

On top of this T5/4+ gives them a reasonable resistance to S3/S4 guns (not as good as T7/3+, but not awful) while a 5++/6+++ really boosts their survivability vs las/melta equivalents. They are vulnerable to assault cannons & massed S5 shooting (possibly autocannons too) - but you should be able to avoid that by virtue of the massive movement & range.

They're good, certainly, but I don't think they're particularly undercosted (if at all).

The reason you see a lot of them is because the DE codex is short on variety and even shorter on efficient, long-range firepower.

What's more, whilst they have good movement, perhaps the greater advantage of Ravagers is that they don't have to move. So, unlike fliers, they can remain near an HQ for the aura. With DE HQs Archons being pretty dire at buffing actual troops, this is one of the few ways to use their buff to meaningful effect.

LOL @ votes for guilliman, razor backs, preds, storm talons, someone just checked all the Tau I see, nurglings? Those are really top 5 strongest per point on that list?

Shining spears, reapers, commanders, flyrants and probably bikes (paretors are worse than the captains but with nothing else worth using in the dex if they weren't op no one could play custodes.)

Honorable mention to dark eldar blaster platforms (that weapon is undercosted by like 10 points), necron destroyers and mortal wound vaults, eldar crimson hunter exarchs, Nid hive guard with their shoot twice shenanigans, AM infantry/mants/basis, TS demon prices (pretty much custodes bike captains + psychers for similar price), Cultists and oblits because they abuse marks/keywords.

I mean the rule of 3 and other work-arounds were added just for flyrants and commanders or we'd see entire armies of them. We do see armies of mostly custode bikes (+ the am cp battery which is why they work)

If dark angel plasma interceptors weren't made of wet paper bags they could use mention for the offensive output but the t1 deepstrike restrictions plus the ridiculous points they give up when looked at crossly probably keeps them off the list. Leviathan dreads? I guess if they had 36" range (like their chaos counterparts)

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Disi Ravagers are really good and without the rule of 3 I feel you would see DE lists taking 8+ or so.

9 shots, S5, AP-3, 2 damage is solid versus a huge range of targets - and bad against very few.

This is coupled with 36" range with a 14" fly move giving you an effective range of 50" and you could assault if you really wanted to. On top of this its incredibly easy to get them in a reroll 1s to hit and wound bubble.

On top of this T5/4+ gives them a reasonable resistance to S3/S4 guns (not as good as T7/3+, but not awful) while a 5++/6+++ really boosts their survivability vs las/melta equivalents. They are vulnerable to assault cannons & massed S5 shooting (possibly autocannons too) - but you should be able to avoid that by virtue of the massive movement & range.

They're good, certainly, but I don't think they're particularly undercosted (if at all).

The reason you see a lot of them is because the DE codex is short on variety and even shorter on efficient, long-range firepower.

What's more, whilst they have good movement, perhaps the greater advantage of Ravagers is that they don't have to move. So, unlike fliers, they can remain near an HQ for the aura. With DE HQs Archons being pretty dire at buffing actual troops, this is one of the few ways to use their buff to meaningful effect.

I'd also say that an 8 Ravager list would find itself pretty vulnerable to hords. Mass small armes fire and close combat will strip off an uncomfortbly large number of wounds off.

3 of the 5 I picked were Eldar. Just like last edition, their best stuff is undercosted. Thankfully they addressed the worst offenders (Reapers), but those are still really amazing for their points I think.

bananathug wrote:
LOL @ votes for guilliman, razor backs, preds, storm talons, someone just checked all the Tau I see, nurglings? Those are really top 5 strongest per point on that list?

I voted nurglings. Less than 5p a wound with 5+ inv and 5+ FNP. Being able to deploy outside their deployment zone is great and they’re a royal pain in the arse to remove off objectives. Being troops you have to fully remove the, too.

Fantastic bang for buck unit for holding objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Number one for me would be Wyrvens. A squad of three Catachan with Sgt Harker buffing is utterly obscene. 12d6 S4 shots rerolling 1’s to hit and all failed to wound, rerolling your worst randomised shot number dice for each. The kicker being you don’t need any line of site so your enemy can’t even shoot back if you do it right.

I’ve used these to amazing effect. Three seperate rerolls when firing at no CP cost can’t be underestimated

bananathug wrote:
LOL @ votes for guilliman, razor backs, preds, storm talons, someone just checked all the Tau I see, nurglings? Those are really top 5 strongest per point on that list?

Whenever someone creates a poll like this, some people just check all the options to mess with the results. Considering the age of the poll feature on dakka, you'd think people would have learned not make multiple choice polls anymore, but here we are.

I made it as a multi choice poll to gather more information about the units a little further down the list. If it was only 'pick the strongest unit' we could easily end up with no votes for the vast majority of the choices (even if they are quite strong). I quite like to see the top 20 or so in some kind of order. No one has just checked every box yet at least, as there are still a couple of options without votes.

I'm not saying that I'd vote for those options, but I included razorbacks, predators and stormravens etc. as they are some of the most common units I've seen run in space marine tournament lists.

Guilliman is probably still getting a bunch of votes because he makes space marine gunlines moderately viable as well as being both powerful and tough to kill. I think part of the reason he's still getting lots of votes is hangover from early 8th.

I've yet to face Custodes, what makes the jetbikes so 'broken'?

 chimeara wrote:
I've yet to face Custodes, what makes the jetbikes so 'broken'?

They're fast, stupidly durable, can fly, have good anti-infantry firepower and pack a solid punch in close combat.

Their damage is fairly consistent thanks to their WS/BS and re-roll abilities, but it's their tankiness that really makes me tear my hair out when playing against them. The Captain being able to have T6, W7, 2+, 3++, rerolls when failing, 6+ against psychic powers, and a 5+ FNP if their player really wants it make them an absolute nightmare to kill.

 chimeara wrote:
I've yet to face Custodes, what makes the jetbikes so 'broken'?

Ease of being folded into other armies.

In terms of their actual stats and capabilities (before warlord traits, relics, stratagems, etc) - they are roughly equal to a winged tzeentch daemon prince, but 16 points cheaper and lacking the psychic powers.

Genestealers. Extremely fast, good level of resilience, bucket of attacks, can make a mockery of saves and wounds.

Also they are surprisingly cheap, add in some very good Hive Fleet Traits; Behemoth and Kraken are just brutal on them, while Leviathan makes the support of a Broodlord wonderful.

I imagine that when we see the rules for Genestealers Cults hit they become even better.

 chimeara wrote:
I've yet to face Custodes, what makes the jetbikes so 'broken'?

GW took everyone's complaints about Shining Spears, and then took them, made a unit that was far more potent and durable, and gave it to the Imperium.

Anyway, I went for:

-Custodes Banana Bikers (obviously)
-Blood Angels Smashfether
-Baneblade variants
-Basilisk/Manticore
-Genestealers

The top four are fairly obvious, Genestealers finish the list with ridiculous damage output and way better survivability than they have any right to expect for 12 points.

All your cheap, hordeable infantry are worth mentioning, but to list them all would take up every category.

The talk of how good Genestealers are is making me feel bad they did so terribly in my last game.

Lol Guilliman, at the start sure, but maybe again if marines get redone

 Fafnir wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I've yet to face Custodes, what makes the jetbikes so 'broken'?

GW took everyone's complaints about Shining Spears, and then took them, made a unit that was far more potent and durable, and gave it to the Imperium.

GW has an unfortunate habit of making units that excel at everything with no drawbacks.

And a particularly bad habit of taking units that already have outstanding offensive and defensive abilities and giving them incredible movement speed as well.

 Fafnir wrote:
[
-Blood Angels Smashfether

I haven't faced Blood Angels since 7th. Who's Smashfether?

Blood Angel Captain with the strat for Black Rage, the relic jumpack that rerrolls charge and ignores overwatch and the +1 damage for your hammer (Its really +1 damage to your weapon but thats what Smashfether uses, alongside a stormshield) warlord trait.


It may be a little funny bit this weekend I played in the biggest GT of my community (16 teams of 4 people, 64 players, but was not an individual tournament) and went agaisnt a 3- baneblade/variants list in two rounds.

With my 3 predator with two lass cannons based Dark Angel list I did a 20-0 (I totally destroyed) the first one and went 0-20 agaisnt the second one. But to be honest the players where very very different, the second one was with the team that end up 4º, and they where obviously comming to the tournament to win.

And I saw the magic ocurrence of one Shadowsword shooting with everything a my rhino in his first turn (I got second) and just doing 1 damage. Unbelievable.

So here is the current top 20 as voted by you guys:

1) Custodes bikers
2) Dark Reapers
3) Guard inantry + officers
4) Blood Angels Smash Captain
5) Roboute Guilliman
6) Coldstar commander
7) Winged hive tyrant
8) Eldar hemlock wraithfighter
9) Shining spears
10) Dark Eldar Ravagers
11) Guard Leman Russ
12) Guard Manticore, basilisk or wyvern
13) Saint celestine
14) Necron destroyers
15) Mortar Heavy weapon teams
16) Wave serpent
17) Ork Boyz / stormboyz
18) Plagueburst crawler
19) Baneblade chassis variants
20) Tau riptide

Honourable mentions: Nurglings, kabalites/wyches, mortarion, obliterators + ahriman (all missed out on the rankings by one vote)

Seems like a solid reflection of the meta. I feel that what people normally fight influences this list heavily however. Surprised not to see tessaract vaults, assassins or talos placing higher.

If it's of interest, here are the rankings from the previous similar poll I did in January (shortly after chapter approved).

1. Guilliman
2. Dark reapers
3. Magnus
4. Mortarion
5. Celestine
6. Imperial guard infantry squads
7. Baneblade Chassis Tank
8. Manticores / Basilisk
9. Hemlock wraithfighter
10. Leman russ
11. Scions
12. Genestealers
13. Khorne berserkers
14. Razorback
15. Stormraven, stormhawk or stormtalon
16 Shining spears
17. Obliterators
18. Mortar teams
19. Hellblasters
Joint 20. Kastellans and Tau Commander

 DoomMouse wrote:
I feel that what people normally fight influences this list heavily however. Surprised not to see tessaract vaults, assassins or talos placing higher.

I'd guess some of that is also people voting for what they've seen other people talk about, while other units of very similar capability fly under the radar.
Nobody bats an eye at flying princes with cheap screens for instance.

 Galas wrote:
Blood Angel Captain with the strat for Black Rage, the relic jumpack that rerrolls charge and ignores overwatch and the +1 damage for your hammer (Its really +1 damage to your weapon but thats what Smashfether uses, alongside a stormshield) warlord trait.

Ah, thank you.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I feel that what people normally fight influences this list heavily however. Surprised not to see tessaract vaults, assassins or talos placing higher.

Are Assassins really that strong?

 DoomMouse wrote:
I feel that what people normally fight influences this list heavily however. Surprised not to see tessaract vaults, assassins or talos placing higher.

Are Assassins really that strong?

I think you are missing a really powerful unit. Necron doomsday arc - insanely powerful and under utilized unit. Certainly belongs in the voting. It's got a weapon fit for a titan and quantum shielding with 14 W. If you didn't bring autocannons - you lose.

For the points? A Battle Sisters dominion squad with storm bolters. Act of faith it and you've got 40 (3+) bolter shots per turn for 60 points. Or one strength 4 hit per 2.25 points per turn. Highest dakka per point in the game.

Also they can move up to 24" per turn without a transport and still shoot. So they've got that going for them. (6+d6 scout) + (6" AOF) + (6" movement) or with melta guns 3x(6+d6) + shooting at a -1.

You are greatly exaggerating their viability. With the exception of Celestine (who'll likely use her own) and Imagifiers (who cost as much as your squad and only work half the time), Sisters only get a single AoF per turn. Not to mention, that those 40 shots are only while within rapid-fire range.

Moreover, even with the AoF (which means they can't shoot twice), that 24" move is not "per turn," it's once per game, and comes at the cost of that double shooting that you're talking about.

Dominions are good, but they're not nearly the level of potency you make them out to be. Plenty of other units get stratagems that allow them to be just as efficient, if not moreso, than Dominions.