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So the rumor mill which has been going pretty much since 8th dropped and Primaris Marines became a thing, has Orkz gaining something akin to a Primarch (Primork) and that brings us to a fun place in the Fluff. The current fluff is written in such a way as to convey the idea that in order for Orkz to grow to Primork size they have to have a LOT of Waaagh Energy. This energy then enhances their size, strength, intelligence and the general technology of the Waaagh!. This explains how tellyportas and KMKs became a thing and numerous other things in the fluff. But here is the kicker, how is Waaagh Energy created? By a gathering of Orkz? kind of, by fighting? Kind of, but when you put the two together you get a metric ton more Waaagh Energy. When orkz fight the increase in the Waaagh Energy in the region acts as a beacon and draws more orkz in to the fight. Tiny Warbands and Klanz on backworld planets, barely able to discover the wheel somehow in days or weeks start developing metallurgy and space ships capable of breaching the immaterium. So when the fight ends, either with the Orkz victorious or the opposing side winning and destroying the largest concentration of orkz the Waaagh energy quickly dissipates and bleeds off into nothing. So that finally brings us around to what Ghaz has been up to.

Ghaz, with his visions from Gork and Mork, isn't trying to WIN a fight against the Imperium or the Nidz or the Cronz or any other faction, because if he did win then the Waaagh energy would begin to dissipate as he sought another good fight for his Waaaagh. No, instead Ghaz is trying to start several never ending fights, like the ones currently going on, such as Armageddon, where Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle and Titans are battling off against a huge Waaagh that is stalemated. The orkz aren't losing but nor are they being eliminated. Similarly, on .Octarius, the Orkz start a never ending battle with the Tyranids who desperately want to take the planet and the vast biomass that has been accumulating on it. These battles are growing in proportion instead of dissipating and the resulting increase in the Waaagh energy is fueling the rise of the Green Tide across the Galaxy.

In other words, Primorkz will be showing up very soon. Ghaz will definitely become one and most likely his lieutenants will as well, like Gruk and others.

So now the question becomes, will 8th edition fuel the waaagh with another couple of endless battles or will this be the full on Waaagh, with Ork Kulture advancing to the point it was during the War of the Beast.

So who else is getting excited to see the rise of the true Green Tide!

Interested in the codex, expecting the fluff to be excruciatingly bad though.

go bad to 'ere we go and waaarrggh the orks for the background.

I'm expecting them to be pretty viable on the table though

Meh, I could do without the whole beast waaagh stuff. Orks were fine without it. Waagh energy was just one aspect of orks and it has now being blown way out of proportion to basically make it their one defining trait. Some Ork warbands have done amazing, advanced and incredible things without a major Ork waagh... the great thing about orks is they're both a hive mind and individuals. Every vechiles, gargant, shoota are all unique and based on the personality of the Orks.

Look at that one big mek who single handedly crashed a moon into a planet for fun! He didn't need waagh energies of millions of orks... he just did it because he was creative. Orks already have their life lessons implanted into their DNA by the kork, old one or Snottlings (which ever lore you believe) but it's their creativity, experiments, experience and intelligence that puts those lessons into work! The Waaagh is just a helping hand... Orks don't just magic things into existence with the Waaagh (or their shootas would just be rocks they picked up that some how fires bulles) they need to have a basic understanding of engineering to even attempt to make the thing work (a single ork with no waaghnpower, again, will make a shoota no problem) the waagh just gives these things buffs and bonuses. The Imperium are the real magic makers! Have you see the shape of their aircraft?

But this is just the lore I k ow and GW probably has changed it so much know i don't know if anything I just said is still correct.

expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment, it MIGHT happen, it might not, even if it does expect it to be just Ghaz. and not some some LOW choice orks can spam.

Considering that we already have stompas, nauts and battlewagons, I wouldn't hold my breath for another huge thing.

BrianDavion wrote:
expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment,

I'm disappointing just thinking about the idea of Primorks. I don't see what other people find exciting about it.

 warhead01 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment,

I'm disappointing just thinking about the idea of Primorks. I don't see what other people find exciting about it.

people like big "bad ass" center peice characters

 warhead01 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment,

I'm disappointing just thinking about the idea of Primorks. I don't see what other people find exciting about it.

I've said multiple times that I don't like the idea of Primorkz and that if they make ghaz into a Primork style model he will probably be crap, getting shot off the table turn 1 most likely. At the moment, in my opinion, the only reason Ghaz is playable is because he is just under the threshold for not being a viable target in the shooting phase. Even if you DOUBLE his wounds, he probably dies turn 1, unless they make him T10 in which case he might be able to beat the odds of Lascannon Spam by simply being wounded on 5s. If I had to guess though, they will make him into a Primork and they won't boost his stats enough to make it viable. He will probably keep his 2+ and 4++ and go up to T7 MAYBE T8, but he will only gain about 4-6 wounds and that simply put, isn't enough. I have yet to play against a Primarch where I was worried. As soon as he was in range I started smacking him upside the head with my handful of KMKs and then assaulted him with a boyz unit and poof, he was gone. Magnus being the one exception, and that is because every time I play against him, my opponent hides him or puts him on top of a building where I can't assault him, and with orkz shooting being so poor, its almost impossible to kill him from range.

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment,

I'm disappointing just thinking about the idea of Primorks. I don't see what other people find exciting about it.

I've said multiple times that I don't like the idea of Primorkz and that if they make ghaz into a Primork style model he will probably be crap, getting shot off the table turn 1 most likely. At the moment, in my opinion, the only reason Ghaz is playable is because he is just under the threshold for not being a viable target in the shooting phase. Even if you DOUBLE his wounds, he probably dies turn 1, unless they make him T10 in which case he might be able to beat the odds of Lascannon Spam by simply being wounded on 5s. If I had to guess though, they will make him into a Primork and they won't boost his stats enough to make it viable. He will probably keep his 2+ and 4++ and go up to T7 MAYBE T8, but he will only gain about 4-6 wounds and that simply put, isn't enough. I have yet to play against a Primarch where I was worried. As soon as he was in range I started smacking him upside the head with my handful of KMKs and then assaulted him with a boyz unit and poof, he was gone. Magnus being the one exception, and that is because every time I play against him, my opponent hides him or puts him on top of a building where I can't assault him, and with orkz shooting being so poor, its almost impossible to kill him from range.

I did like your OP the grand plan sounds about right.
I don't care for the Primeork idea outside of those novels but GW's gunna do what GW's gunna do.
I have lots of large centerpiece models that I never use not to interested in yet another.
It will have to be really exciting to get me interested but even then I don't tend to use any of the special characters that I have. (I think I have all of them.)
It just hit me that they may give "Nu-Ghaz" a means of telly-porting in which chase he may be a bit better but we'll need to start a proppa war to keep him from being easily targeted after he arrives.
Expectations very low..
I'm also not looking forward to Nu-Ghaz invalidating Old Ghaz but it's probably an out for GW, they can just rerelease Ghaz as a Mega Armoured Warboss.

 warhead01 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment,

I'm disappointing just thinking about the idea of Primorks. I don't see what other people find exciting about it.

I'm with you... orks are unique, you change them now you ruin something that's solid. Also I don't havr thr money to buy another 200 orks.

Maybe they should focus on the stompa as the cneter peice model by actually encouraging people to usr it.

Agree. Orks don't really need new stuff, we need the stuff we have to actually do gak. I bet most players that started in 8th don't even know half our units.

 Jidmah wrote:
Agree. Orks don't really need new stuff, we need the stuff we have to actually do gak. I bet most players that started in 8th don't even know half our units.

I don't know if you saw my last post but orks (if the no model = no rules effect comes in) in the codex will lose about 60 options in hqs alone! Most new ork players starting with the codex will probably think we're a new faction in the game, not the founding faction alongside space marines 30 years ago. XD

Eh, to be fair most of those options haven't been anything but modeling challenges for most of their existence anyways.

Meks on bikes had no showing before 8th outside of Wazzdakka Gutsmek, the loadout of the Grukk Face-Rippa model nails what most warbosses have looked like since 4th.

The only true losses are the biker warboss and plain KFF mek.

 Jidmah wrote:
Eh, to be fair most of those options haven't been anything but modeling challenges for most of their existence anyways.

Meks on bikes had no showing before 8th outside of Wazzdakka Gutsmek, the loadout of the Grukk Face-Rippa model nails what most warbosses have looked like since 4th.

The only true losses are the biker warboss and plain KFF mek.

I would disagree. For mahy years I know plenty of people who use big mek on mike with kff. It's basically required for an evil sunz army because of the 4+ save of trukss and other vechiles and the lower toughness.

I wouldn't bee too surprised if they introduced a new HQ line with plastic Big Mek, Weirdboy and Warboss. I mean the only plastic HQ we have at the moment is Grukk. Weirdboy is resin, BC Warboss is metal and the OOP KFF Big Mek was metal/resin.

The bike versions are probably going to remain Index only options sadly.

I'm kinda hating the new direction of pruning options if they require kitbashing... fething chapterhouse tbh.

 lolman1c wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment,

I'm disappointing just thinking about the idea of Primorks. I don't see what other people find exciting about it.

I'm with you... orks are unique, you change them now you ruin something that's solid. Also I don't havr thr money to buy another 200 orks.

Maybe they should focus on the stompa as the cneter peice model by actually encouraging people to usr it.

would adding something new though change it? keep in mind when folks talk about Primorks they're not talking "Ork Primaris equivilants" but a bigger better tougher (more costly) war boss.

I can kinda see the beef with Primeorks but I feel that the Beast Arises series turned Orks from a joke to a credible threat. Our little race killed/forced a Primarch to sacrifice himself and utterly wiped out one of the most well known Chapters of SM except for literally one dude. We had emissaries on Terra, trying to arrange a surrender ffs! Carnage!

Prior to that, what did we have, outside of the obligatory Ghazzy attacks Armageddon again because no progression is life and the little stories about specific characters such as Grukk, Wazzdakka, Old Zogwort etc? I feel like other than Ghazzy, none of our other named Warbosses are really a threat to the galaxy and instead just represent a minor/major inconvenience. The Beast was not a joke and was significantly more than an inconvenience. He represented A (not THE) pinnacle of an Ork WAAAAGGGGHHH!! and he came very, VERY close to wiping humanity from existence. Make no mistake, had he wished it, humanity would not exist now. He parked an attack moon outside Terra for weeks? months? before deciding to do anything, just to feth with the oomies.

Almost every Ork player I've met IRL and seen on here agrees that Ghazzy's current model is too small. Way too small. A 'Primeork' Ghazz is just a title for a larger, more intimidating model, which is exactly what he should be IMO.

In the fluff it represents Ghazzy going to the next stage in the evolution of himself and his WAAAAGGGHH!!! He is becoming a true, credible threat to the galaxy at large. Not just some scary Orky who attacks the same place over and over. Or a scary Orky who is really good at fighting but hasn't got a brain. It raises him to the level of "Tyranid Hive Mind" or "the Chaos gods" or even "Abaddon" in terms of threat level to the galaxy (not just the imperium) and this to me is awesome.

I can't wait to see what happens with the codex or hopefully new model releases. I think we deserve some new models for waiting so long. I see no reason they'd delay our codex otherwise. As long as they aren't terrain features (looking at you webway portal), I'll be ecstatic.

BrianDavion wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
expecting Primorks is setting oneself up for dissappointment,

I'm disappointing just thinking about the idea of Primorks. I don't see what other people find exciting about it.

I'm with you... orks are unique, you change them now you ruin something that's solid. Also I don't havr thr money to buy another 200 orks.

Maybe they should focus on the stompa as the cneter peice model by actually encouraging people to usr it.

would adding something new though change it? keep in mind when folks talk about Primorks they're not talking "Ork Primaris equivilants" but a bigger better tougher (more costly) war boss.

I agree with where your going with that. My point or thoughts on what I was saying is I read Primork and everyone seems to be thinking something completely different. Sure Ghaz could be larger. I'd be more interested in new vehicles, the return of Ard' boys (Which could well be the Primorks other people are thinking of.) Things that I see as more beneficial to the Ork faction than special characters.
Give us new tanks and artillery! Give us a Mb full of Big Shootas 15 strong!

 lolman1c wrote:
I would disagree. For mahy years I know plenty of people who use big mek on mike with kff. It's basically required for an evil sunz army because of the 4+ save of trukss and other vechiles and the lower toughness.

In 4th to 6th KFF and bike excluded each other, in 7th edition bikers had a 4+ cover save at all times. Let's also not forget that the KFF expanded from the vehicle the mek was embarked on until 7th edition, and there was nothing preventing you from just shooting the KFF mek if he was following bunch of trukks without a unit to hide in.

So, "For many years" cannot be true, KFF mek on bikes is an 8th edition phenomenon

In terms of lore I wouldn't expect too much development of the story except an expansion of Ghaz's storyline. Orks finally take Armageddon to use as a staging post?

They could do a big re-write in light of the Beast Arises, but I struggle to see them doing that. Maybe I just have high expectations - but there seems to be less and less world building fluff in codexes with almost every expansion.

As I see it Orks can be written three ways.
Brutal but Kunnin' - Orks are portrayed as a serious industrial scale war making power capable of seriously facing down the Imperium (and anyone else) in every theatre. They have mobs of boys - specialised to meet certain battlefield roles - backed by tanks, aircraft, artillery, stompas, ships etc.
Brutal not Kunnin' - Orks are portrayed as Ork boys only, running headfirst into the enemy, choppas waving proudly as they go. They infest worlds and are a menace to those there - but in wider theatre terms they are an annoyance.
Comic Relief - Orks are not portrayed as anything really. They just zoon through the galaxy screaming "waaaagh", getting into fights until they invariably die (not least because their guns blow up for fun). There is no wider narrative or objective - they are just there.

I am really hoping the first option takes precedence. Mainly because it would cause a systematic rebalancing of most units away from the 3rd option - this idea that if you don't like greentide, you must be in it for the lols, have random tables and shooting on everything. I am not super confident though.

The entire 'primork' rumor was kicked off by a blurry pic of what was obviously a looted dreadknight in a white dwarf a couple of months ago.

I don't think it's likely at ALL that ghaz will become a primork. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets a new model, but any big walker-y type rumors is based on some incredibly shaky ground

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I can kinda see the beef with Primeorks but I feel that the Beast Arises series turned Orks from a joke to a credible threat. Our little race killed/forced a Primarch to sacrifice himself and utterly wiped out one of the most well known Chapters of SM except for literally one dude. We had emissaries on Terra, trying to arrange a surrender ffs! Carnage!

Prior to that, what did we have, outside of the obligatory Ghazzy attacks Armageddon again because no progression is life and the little stories about specific characters such as Grukk, Wazzdakka, Old Zogwort etc? I feel like other than Ghazzy, none of our other named Warbosses are really a threat to the galaxy and instead just represent a minor/major inconvenience. The Beast was not a joke and was significantly more than an inconvenience. He represented A (not THE) pinnacle of an Ork WAAAAGGGGHHH!! and he came very, VERY close to wiping humanity from existence. Make no mistake, had he wished it, humanity would not exist now. He parked an attack moon outside Terra for weeks? months? before deciding to do anything, just to feth with the oomies.

Almost every Ork player I've met IRL and seen on here agrees that Ghazzy's current model is too small. Way too small. A 'Primeork' Ghazz is just a title for a larger, more intimidating model, which is exactly what he should be IMO.

In the fluff it represents Ghazzy going to the next stage in the evolution of himself and his WAAAAGGGHH!!! He is becoming a true, credible threat to the galaxy at large. Not just some scary Orky who attacks the same place over and over. Or a scary Orky who is really good at fighting but hasn't got a brain. It raises him to the level of "Tyranid Hive Mind" or "the Chaos gods" or even "Abaddon" in terms of threat level to the galaxy (not just the imperium) and this to me is awesome.

I can't wait to see what happens with the codex or hopefully new model releases. I think we deserve some new models for waiting so long. I see no reason they'd delay our codex otherwise. As long as they aren't terrain features (looking at you webway portal), I'll be ecstatic.

At what cost though? Sure, Orks become scary but there needs to be that fine balance and too me this kinda just smells like GW is ironing out the funny side of Orks for this Grim Daek look. The Beast books were basically just imperial propaganda! Outside of the descriptions of the Orks they had no character! I don't even remember their names! I have said this a billion times but i love ghaz because I have read his back story. I know how he has fought his way up, I know his goals, is pain, his loses, what's at risk if he loses! I know all this and I cheer for him! The Beasts are just very large Orks with no personality. I don't see the difference between a Prime Ork and an Orc from LoTR. I didn't feel the need to support the beats because I didn't know them other than their faction.

Tyel wrote:
In terms of lore I wouldn't expect too much development of the story except an expansion of Ghaz's storyline. Orks finally take Armageddon to use as a staging post?

Not taking Armageddon is kind of the whole point of that war. The orks want a place of constant fighting, which would be gone if they win.

 Jidmah wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I would disagree. For mahy years I know plenty of people who use big mek on mike with kff. It's basically required for an evil sunz army because of the 4+ save of trukss and other vechiles and the lower toughness.

In 4th to 6th KFF and bike excluded each other, in 7th edition bikers had a 4+ cover save at all times. Let's also not forget that the KFF expanded from the vehicle the mek was embarked on until 7th edition, and there was nothing preventing you from just shooting the KFF mek if he was following bunch of trukks without a unit to hide in.

So, "For many years" cannot be true, KFF mek on bikes is an 8th edition phenomenon

You're wrong and obviously was using him wrong. He was great for moving up alongside mobs without ard armour and also an amazing unit for covering the paper thin trukks for a turn. Iphe was about 100pts if I'm not wrong so it was a great investment if you wanted everything within (not wholey within like 8th) 6" to have that extra cover. Don't forget that a trukk boyz mob was a big threat in 7th so your opponent was less likey to fire everything at a model with a 3 up save when boosting and 5+ Invulnerable when a mob was incoming. In addition, if they did then good... he had survivability and also meant uour trukks would be even safer for a turn. No split fire in 7th, if someone wanted ti shoot you they had to dedicate an entire vehicle or squad of guys. Also they had less ap and only 1 pt of damage usually.

I rather see all Orks be treated like the deadly threats that they are instead of just being a back drop threat for Named Character/Group #23 to dispatch. Ghazz needs the respect and badassery that he deserves (with a proper size model) but I don't want him to be the only Orky threat. An Ork boy should be no joke against a human while a Nob is a scary threat for a space marine. A Warboss should be deadly for even the mightiest captains/chapter masters to deal with.

I REALLY don't want to see some new breed of Ork that is some excuse for GW to get people to buy 100+ new infantry models like they are trying with primaris marines.

Tyel wrote:
In terms of lore I wouldn't expect too much development of the story except an expansion of Ghaz's storyline. Orks finally take Armageddon to use as a staging post?

They could do a big re-write in light of the Beast Arises, but I struggle to see them doing that. Maybe I just have high expectations - but there seems to be less and less world building fluff in codexes with almost every expansion.

As I see it Orks can be written three ways.
Brutal but Kunnin' - Orks are portrayed as a serious industrial scale war making power capable of seriously facing down the Imperium (and anyone else) in every theatre. They have mobs of boys - specialised to meet certain battlefield roles - backed by tanks, aircraft, artillery, stompas, ships etc.
Brutal not Kunnin' - Orks are portrayed as Ork boys only, running headfirst into the enemy, choppas waving proudly as they go. They infest worlds and are a menace to those there - but in wider theatre terms they are an annoyance.
Comic Relief - Orks are not portrayed as anything really. They just zoon through the galaxy screaming "waaaagh", getting into fights until they invariably die (not least because their guns blow up for fun). There is no wider narrative or objective - they are just there.

I am really hoping the first option takes precedence. Mainly because it would cause a systematic rebalancing of most units away from the 3rd option - this idea that if you don't like greentide, you must be in it for the lols, have random tables and shooting on everything. I am not super confident though.

Why can't they be a mixture of both the 1st and the 3rd options? It was done before with the older writers so i'm more than sure a new one couodmdo it if they were actually good enough. As the Eldar say, who are we to judge the orks as brutal when they are in fact perfect. To them what is a good time is a horrific battle. To them what is a complicated plan that requires coordination of billions of untrained wild troops looks to the imperium as unorganised mess of stupid boyz until the plan actually comes out fully. What seems to the imperium as a bunch if scrap metal is a peice of tecknolgy hundreds of thousands of years more advanced then anything the other races can make.

I could see it this way; In every codex they illustrate orks as a horrible, brutal and dumb race. They really just force propaganda down people's throats and describe a horrific battle. Then in the Orks codex they just do the same thing but from the Orks perspective, showing that their plans were super complex, crazy, lucky and fun!

For reference on how I want orks to be seen watch this video and just replace everything with 40k stuff:

 Jidmah wrote:

Tyel wrote:
In terms of lore I wouldn't expect too much development of the story except an expansion of Ghaz's storyline. Orks finally take Armageddon to use as a staging post?

Not taking Armageddon is kind of the whole point of that war. The orks want a place of constant fighting, which would be gone if they win.

Yeah I guess - but they could then go fight somewhere else. Other imperial worlds are surely available.

It just seems a bit stupid to have this war go on for 20+ years in real life.

Tyel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Tyel wrote:
In terms of lore I wouldn't expect too much development of the story except an expansion of Ghaz's storyline. Orks finally take Armageddon to use as a staging post?

Not taking Armageddon is kind of the whole point of that war. The orks want a place of constant fighting, which would be gone if they win.

Yeah I guess - but they could then go fight somewhere else. Other imperial worlds are surely available.

It just seems a bit stupid to have this war go on for 20+ years in real life.

Right, but Orks want a good scrap, and the more the Imperials throw into the meatgrinder the more they are drawn to it since all the beakies, walkers and regiments are being sent there to fight. It's like an all-you-can-fight buffet, versus going to a wimpy Agri World salad with crappy defenses/dressing that you'll finish in one sitting.

God damn I hope not. The last thing that current ork fluff needs is more overemphasis on Ghazghkull Uber Alles. How many special characters are we down to that aren't in Ghazzy's little clique? Just badrukk now?

What is it about folks and any time a long-neglected faction gets its time in the limelight going "Hey you know what we should focus on? the Ultramarines equivalent of this faction, who already have tons of rules support for their named characters!"

Early rumors circled around a Speed Freeks supplement. Now that would be a good ork update. Of the three big broad categories of ork armies, the whole "Green Tide infantry focused" armies seem to see the most rules support, the "big klanky walker mechs and techno gizmos" get the most model support, and we really need an update for "Crazy Mad Max mechanized hooligans" type of army.

Nob/Character bikers, Buggies, Trakks, and Deffkoptas are the models in the ork range most in need of an update after all.

Nob bikers are just box of nobz+2 boxes of warbikers. The nobz models were literally made to fit warbikes.

Having a spure with just 5 bikes for the nobz would be awesome though.