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Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Currently, the real issue with Crisis suits is that their role is that of a disruptive threat to the enemies back-line, but to carry it out, they need to steal support from Tau units already on the table. Deep-striking Crisis suits don't provide new threat, they simply spread it thinner.
I figure the following rule would be a good way to buff aggressive or deep-striking Crisis squads without overly buffing fully supported suits. (ie: no BS2+ Crisis Suits)

Predictive Processors
Over the years, the Tau's greatest military minds have made extensive records of the tactics and strategies employed by the enemies of the Greater Good. Uploading this information to a Crisis Suit's on-board computer means pilots need only identify their target to anticipate its every move.
"XV-8 Crisis Suits and XV-8 Bodyguards treat units with at least one Marker Light token as having five Marker Light tokens."

I see this as a built in trait, as opposed to war gear. What do you think? Too much? Not enough?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 00:12:06


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Crisis Suits need BS3+ to show they're really Vet Fire Warriors and the tech does well and all that jazz. Then we can adjust price as necessary.

The Markerlight system as is isn't the issue with them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Honestly, Crisis suits just getting BS3+ and sticking to their current cost is perfectly fine. They are costed as though they were BS3+ to begin with.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Honestly, Crisis suits just getting BS3+ and sticking to their current cost is perfectly fine. They are costed as though they were BS3+ to begin with.

I'm worried that Crisis Suits would actually be too powerful if it's too easy to give them 2+ re-rolling 1s.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crisis Suits need BS3+ to show they're really Vet Fire Warriors and the tech does well and all that jazz. Then we can adjust price as necessary.

The Markerlight system as is isn't the issue with them.

I've argued for a long time that Markerlights and Suits(all forms of them) should be given some kind of secondary beneficial aspect.

We wouldn't even need to go too overboard with it. Just the following:
Blacksun Filters:
A model with this rule doubles the number of Markerlight Counters on a target.


I'd also argue for Broadsides and Supremacy Suits to get an expanded/different rule where they get to ignore negative to Hit mods that aren't granted by being a Flyer.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crisis Suits need BS3+ to show they're really Vet Fire Warriors and the tech does well and all that jazz. Then we can adjust price as necessary.

The Markerlight system as is isn't the issue with them.

I've argued for a long time that Markerlights and Suits(all forms of them) should be given some kind of secondary beneficial aspect.

We wouldn't even need to go too overboard with it. Just the following:
Blacksun Filters:
A model with this rule doubles the number of Markerlight Counters on a target.


I'd also argue for Broadsides and Supremacy Suits to get an expanded/different rule where they get to ignore negative to Hit mods that aren't granted by being a Flyer.

I could actually live with that rule for Blacksun Filters. Makes suits more efficient for Markerlights but not brokenly so.

I still want BS3+ for all Suit units though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

I think regular Crisis suits should stay at current BS, but have an option for veterans that are BS 3+, but smaller squads (And more points, of couse).

Overall, I don’t like 8Es treatment of Marker lights, and wish it would go back to something more akin to 5E or before.

It never ends well 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I could actually live with that rule for Blacksun Filters. Makes suits more efficient for Markerlights but not brokenly so.

I still want BS3+ for all Suit units though.

Nah. Regular Crisis suits absolutely cannot be allowed to have Commander level shooting, even if it does require marker lights to get there. Not, at the very least, without paying some points and giving up a hard point for it.

The existence of marker lights makes going from naked BS4+ to naked BS3+ VASTLY more powerful than it looks in a vacuum. 3+ re-rolling 1s to 2+ re-rolling 1s is a huge change.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Tylendal wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I could actually live with that rule for Blacksun Filters. Makes suits more efficient for Markerlights but not brokenly so.

I still want BS3+ for all Suit units though.

Nah. Regular Crisis suits absolutely cannot be allowed to have Commander level shooting, even if it does require marker lights to get there. Not, at the very least, without paying some points and giving up a hard point for it.

The existence of marker lights makes going from naked BS4+ to naked BS3+ VASTLY more powerful than it looks in a vacuum. 3+ re-rolling 1s to 2+ re-rolling 1s is a huge change.

You do realize how much you're paying for Suits right? There seems to be no good price point, so we might as well make them worth the points. BS3+ really isn't as bad as you're making it to be.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tylendal wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I could actually live with that rule for Blacksun Filters. Makes suits more efficient for Markerlights but not brokenly so.

I still want BS3+ for all Suit units though.

Nah. Regular Crisis suits absolutely cannot be allowed to have Commander level shooting, even if it does require marker lights to get there. Not, at the very least, without paying some points and giving up a hard point for it.

The existence of marker lights makes going from naked BS4+ to naked BS3+ VASTLY more powerful than it looks in a vacuum. 3+ re-rolling 1s to 2+ re-rolling 1s is a huge change.

You do realize how much you're paying for Suits right? There seems to be no good price point, so we might as well make them worth the points. BS3+ really isn't as bad as you're making it to be.
BS3+ isn't the problem, it's the fact you can very easily buff it up to BS2+ for very little effort, due to the fact the D3+1 strat exists, Sa'cea Marksmen exist and the Orbital Strat exists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 05:45:39


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tylendal wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I could actually live with that rule for Blacksun Filters. Makes suits more efficient for Markerlights but not brokenly so.

I still want BS3+ for all Suit units though.

Nah. Regular Crisis suits absolutely cannot be allowed to have Commander level shooting, even if it does require marker lights to get there. Not, at the very least, without paying some points and giving up a hard point for it.

The existence of marker lights makes going from naked BS4+ to naked BS3+ VASTLY more powerful than it looks in a vacuum. 3+ re-rolling 1s to 2+ re-rolling 1s is a huge change.

You do realize how much you're paying for Suits right? There seems to be no good price point, so we might as well make them worth the points. BS3+ really isn't as bad as you're making it to be.
BS3+ isn't the problem, it's the fact you can very easily buff it up to BS2+ for very little effort, due to the fact the D3+1 strat exists, Sa'cea Marksmen exist and the Orbital Strat exists.

Suits shouldn't be priced based on what CAN happen. They should be priced independently first and THEN see how well everything synergizes. They're priced like you have all those buffs at once, which is clearly the worst way to go about it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Then again you cannot price them without any buffs and then give them buffs.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Suits shouldn't be priced based on what CAN happen. They should be priced independently first and THEN see how well everything synergizes. They're priced like you have all those buffs at once, which is clearly the worst way to go about it.

Hence why I'm saying that, instead of directly buffing the suits, and all the force-multiplier interactions that follow, they should instead just give them incredibly easy access to those force multipliers, so you don't end up with stacking buffs.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Crisis suits as currently writen are not worth the points.
However is it really their damage output that is the issue or is it that they aren't remotely as durable as they are priced to be.
Its 3 T5 wounds with a 3+ save model at BS4+ paying BS3+ weapon prices.

They are priced like they can still do jump shoot jump, which they can't.

Just to put some numbers down a crisis suit is 42 points without weapons for T5 3W 3+sv, a terminator (widely accepted as overcosted) is 40 points for T4 2w 2+ 5++ with a storm bolter and powerfist. It's also BS3+ aswell.

Everyones talking like getting 5 markerlights is a given in a 2k list you going to have maybe 5 reliable markerlights you can max it out at 7 because any opponent will prioritise killing any non charictor markerlights T1. So your boosting 1 target to 5 markerlights or more likely spreading the lights around so actually getting that +1BS is rare outside getting turn 1. So you have a unit paying an opportunity cost for an opportunity they will rarely get.

But more fundamentally the issue isn't so much damage output its the suit being about twice the points it really should be. I would rather see suits priced for what they can do before turning them into glass cannons with the potential to be glass nuclear weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 09:29:50


 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Ice_can wrote:
Crisis suits as currently writen are not worth the points.
However is it really their damage output that is the issue or is it that they aren't remotely as durable as they are priced to be.
Its 3 T5 wounds with a 3+ save model at BS4+ paying BS3+ weapon prices.

They are priced like they can still do jump shoot jump, which they can't.

Just to put some numbers down a crisis suit is 42 points without weapons for T5 3W 3+sv, a terminator (widely accepted as overcosted) is 40 points for T4 2w 2+ 5++ with a storm bolter and powerfist. It's also BS3+ aswell.

Everyones talking like getting 5 markerlights is a given in a 2k list you going to have maybe 5 reliable markerlights you can max it out at 7 because any opponent will prioritise killing any non charictor markerlights T1. So your boosting 1 target to 5 markerlights or more likely spreading the lights around so actually getting that +1BS is rare outside getting turn 1. So you have a unit paying an opportunity cost for an opportunity they will rarely get.

But more fundamentally the issue isn't so much damage output its the suit being about twice the points it really should be. I would rather see suits priced for what they can do before turning them into glass cannons with the potential to be glass nuclear weapons.


Don't Crisis suits have FLY so can leave combat AND shoot? Terminators and similar usually don't. Now terminators are usually happy in combat but a lot of units with firepower would love to be able to jump out and shoot!

2W means insta kill from Overcharged Plasma, 3W isn't.

I like the idea of the Vet option for BS3+

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 10:49:03


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr Morden wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Crisis suits as currently writen are not worth the points.
However is it really their damage output that is the issue or is it that they aren't remotely as durable as they are priced to be.
Its 3 T5 wounds with a 3+ save model at BS4+ paying BS3+ weapon prices.

They are priced like they can still do jump shoot jump, which they can't.

Just to put some numbers down a crisis suit is 42 points without weapons for T5 3W 3+sv, a terminator (widely accepted as overcosted) is 40 points for T4 2w 2+ 5++ with a storm bolter and powerfist. It's also BS3+ aswell.

Everyones talking like getting 5 markerlights is a given in a 2k list you going to have maybe 5 reliable markerlights you can max it out at 7 because any opponent will prioritise killing any non charictor markerlights T1. So your boosting 1 target to 5 markerlights or more likely spreading the lights around so actually getting that +1BS is rare outside getting turn 1. So you have a unit paying an opportunity cost for an opportunity they will rarely get.

But more fundamentally the issue isn't so much damage output its the suit being about twice the points it really should be. I would rather see suits priced for what they can do before turning them into glass cannons with the potential to be glass nuclear weapons.


Don't Crisis suits have FLY so can leave combat AND shoot? Terminators and similar usually don't. Now terminators are usually happy in combat but a lot of units with firepower would love to be able to jump out and shoot!

2W means insta kill from Overcharged Plasma, 3W isn't.

I like the idea of the Vet option for BS3+


Lets make this a more obvious comparison.

T5 3 Wounds 3+ save BS4+ isn't worth 42 points per model when a

T5 2 wounds 3+ save BS3+ model is 25 points with fly and an extra 2 inches of movement.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Ice_can wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Crisis suits as currently writen are not worth the points.
However is it really their damage output that is the issue or is it that they aren't remotely as durable as they are priced to be.
Its 3 T5 wounds with a 3+ save model at BS4+ paying BS3+ weapon prices.

They are priced like they can still do jump shoot jump, which they can't.

Just to put some numbers down a crisis suit is 42 points without weapons for T5 3W 3+sv, a terminator (widely accepted as overcosted) is 40 points for T4 2w 2+ 5++ with a storm bolter and powerfist. It's also BS3+ aswell.

Everyones talking like getting 5 markerlights is a given in a 2k list you going to have maybe 5 reliable markerlights you can max it out at 7 because any opponent will prioritise killing any non charictor markerlights T1. So your boosting 1 target to 5 markerlights or more likely spreading the lights around so actually getting that +1BS is rare outside getting turn 1. So you have a unit paying an opportunity cost for an opportunity they will rarely get.

But more fundamentally the issue isn't so much damage output its the suit being about twice the points it really should be. I would rather see suits priced for what they can do before turning them into glass cannons with the potential to be glass nuclear weapons.


Don't Crisis suits have FLY so can leave combat AND shoot? Terminators and similar usually don't. Now terminators are usually happy in combat but a lot of units with firepower would love to be able to jump out and shoot!

2W means insta kill from Overcharged Plasma, 3W isn't.

I like the idea of the Vet option for BS3+


Lets make this a more obvious comparison.

T5 3 Wounds 3+ save BS4+ isn't worth 42 points per model when a

T5 2 wounds 3+ save BS3+ model is 25 points with fly and an extra 2 inches of movement.


Sorry whats the 25pts model that has the same FLY (and a hugely important rule) rule as Suits

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spacemarine intercessors not exactlly considered broken at that points cost
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






I personally don't think the suits themselves are overcosted (maybe by like 2 points), but the fact that they made the minimum unit size into 3 that makes them too costly.

Functionally with their given stats, its not something that can really be spammed with great success (much like how terminators are competitively unspammable). They're units that needs to be sprinkled on sparingly into a list, but as they stand now, it's kind of like trying to sprinkle salt on your food with the top opened.

On the other hand, it's odd that while AM gets their special weapons discounted if it's on a inferior unit, but Tau doesn't get the same treatment. If Crisis got their weapons discounted at half price compared to commander (BS+4 vs BS+2) like AM does, they would become highly viable units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/18 14:36:34


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
Then again you cannot price them without any buffs and then give them buffs.

Look how well that works for codex "Why aren't you running Roboute again?"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Spacemarine intercessors not exactlly considered broken at that points cost

Inceptors, but yeah.

35 points, BS3+. Done. Then adjust as necessary. I still like the Blacksun Filter idea suggested after this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 14:39:17


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The problem with Suits is that their weapons are costed somewhere between what a BS4 unit should pay and a BS2 unit should pay. So they're too good on the BS2 unit, and not good enough on the BS4 unit.

One of the two should change. BS3+ suits or BS3+ Commanders (not both) would make it a lot easier to keep their weapons balanced.

I'm more in favor of BS3+ suits, but can see both arguments.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
The problem with Suits is that their weapons are costed somewhere between what a BS4 unit should pay and a BS2 unit should pay. So they're too good on the BS2 unit, and not good enough on the BS4 unit.

One of the two should change. BS3+ suits or BS3+ Commanders (not both) would make it a lot easier to keep their weapons balanced.

I'm more in favor of BS3+ suits, but can see both arguments.


I would like commanders to be toned down. I really dislike expensive HQs because they are required for detachments which leaves less room for adjusting lists.

My personal favorite fix:
- Crisis and coldstars can 2 weapons + 1 system, enforcers can take 3 weapons+1 System.
- Commanders and Crisis Bodyguards get BS 3+. (don't adjust costs yet)
- Throw in a Sub-Commander while you're at it.
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.
- Drop the min squad of crisis to 1 (so they're easier to fit in).
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Dandelion wrote:
Bharring wrote:
The problem with Suits is that their weapons are costed somewhere between what a BS4 unit should pay and a BS2 unit should pay. So they're too good on the BS2 unit, and not good enough on the BS4 unit.

One of the two should change. BS3+ suits or BS3+ Commanders (not both) would make it a lot easier to keep their weapons balanced.

I'm more in favor of BS3+ suits, but can see both arguments.


I would like commanders to be toned down. I really dislike expensive HQs because they are required for detachments which leaves less room for adjusting lists.

Commanders have already been toned down--they're 1 per fricking Detachment. What more do you want, them to wave a pool noodle at you while shouting PEW! PEW! PEW!...?

My personal favorite fix:
- Crisis and coldstars can 2 weapons + 1 system, enforcers can take 3 weapons+1 System.
- Commanders and Crisis Bodyguards get BS 3+. (don't adjust costs yet)
- Throw in a Sub-Commander while you're at it.
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.
- Drop the min squad of crisis to 1 (so they're easier to fit in).

The only reasonable thing in here is a Subcommander. Crisis Bodyguards aren't any different to standard Crisis pilots; they get drawn from the same ranks. If Bodyguards go BS3+, then normal should too.

Realistically:
We need variant suit commanders to be able to be taken. We need subcommanders/specialist "leaders" being added. We should be getting some Stealth Suit equipped 'assassin' styled HQ choices, some Broadside equipped 'artillery officers', etc.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dandelion wrote:

I would like commanders to be toned down. I really dislike expensive HQs because they are required for detachments which leaves less room for adjusting lists.

My personal favorite fix:
- Crisis and coldstars can 2 weapons + 1 system, enforcers can take 3 weapons+1 System.
- Commanders and Crisis Bodyguards get BS 3+. (don't adjust costs yet)
- Throw in a Sub-Commander while you're at it.
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.
- Drop the min squad of crisis to 1 (so they're easier to fit in).


That's all sorts of horrible and reminiscent of the monet lists of 7th which were al sorts of broken.
Also why in 8th edition when units benifit from strats would anyone want a unit of 1 crisis suit.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Dandelion wrote:
I would like commanders to be toned down. I really dislike expensive HQs because they are required for detachments which leaves less room for adjusting lists.
I disagree. Commanders are equivalent to top-tier HQ units and should be costed as such. I don't see a point of making commander worse for the sake of reducing its point cost.

Dandelion wrote:
My personal favorite fix:
- Crisis and coldstars can 2 weapons + 1 system, enforcers can take 3 weapons+1 System.
- Commanders and Crisis Bodyguards get BS 3+. (don't adjust costs yet)
- Throw in a Sub-Commander while you're at it.
The above three can actually be incorporated as a single entry for a sub-commander (shas-el). This can actually be your cheaper crisis commander suggestion above without necessarily touching on commander crisis.

Dandelion wrote:
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.
The suit cost is fine, but if it must, drop it to maybe around 38-40 points. Crisis's statline cannot be justified at 25-30 points (M8", S5, T5, W3, SV+3, Deepstrike) The weapons could be adjusted seeing how AM has their weapons discounted for BS+4 models. Shield generators should be bumped up in cost - externally across the game, 8 pt is too cheap for ++4 on a T5 W3 model.

Dandelion wrote:
- Drop the min squad of crisis to 1 (so they're easier to fit in).
Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Also why in 8th edition when units benifit from strats would anyone want a unit of 1 crisis suit.
Because all stratagems that involve crisis are garbage, and because most of the abilities that crisis synergies off of are target based and not aura based. Furthermore, crisis offer no synergy to rest of the army - they only bring fire power. Crisis should be min 1 max 3 IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:00:17


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:


Commanders have already been toned down--they're 1 per fricking Detachment. What more do you want, them to wave a pool noodle at you while shouting PEW! PEW! PEW!...?

Toned down points wise. spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly. Oh, I also forgot to mention that I would remove the 1 per detachment thing. Cuz that's also silly. Besides, every time I use a commander in friendly games I feel a little dirty. BS 3+ is hardly noodle levels.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The only reasonable thing in here is a Subcommander. Crisis Bodyguards aren't any different to standard Crisis pilots; they get drawn from the same ranks. If Bodyguards go BS3+, then normal should too.

Realistically:
We need variant suit commanders to be able to be taken. We need subcommanders/specialist "leaders" being added. We should be getting some Stealth Suit equipped 'assassin' styled HQ choices, some Broadside equipped 'artillery officers', etc.


Hmm, bodyguards are more experienced than regular teams: they are all Shas'vre, and they are more veteran than crisis team leaders since that's what they used to be before advancing. They're also the commanders personal aides. So yes, they are different. I also wouldn't mind WS 4+ while we're at it since that's what they used to have at least. Make that 3A stat useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:

That's all sorts of horrible and reminiscent of the monet lists of 7th which were al sorts of broken.
Also why in 8th edition when units benifit from strats would anyone want a unit of 1 crisis suit.


Never played 7th so I don't know what that means.

Min 1 suit because at 80 pts a suit it's hard to find space for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
My personal favorite fix:
- Crisis and coldstars can 2 weapons + 1 system, enforcers can take 3 weapons+1 System.
- Commanders and Crisis Bodyguards get BS 3+. (don't adjust costs yet)
- Throw in a Sub-Commander while you're at it.
The above three can actually be incorporated as a single entry for a sub-commander (shas-el). This can actually be your cheaper crisis commander suggestion above without necessarily touching on commander crisis.


Yeah, sure.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:07:52


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Give me stealth suit commanders or give me death!

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Dandelion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:


Commanders have already been toned down--they're 1 per fricking Detachment. What more do you want, them to wave a pool noodle at you while shouting PEW! PEW! PEW!...?

Toned down points wise. spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly. Oh, I also forgot to mention that I would remove the 1 per detachment thing. Cuz that's also silly. Besides, every time I use a commander in friendly games I feel a little dirty. BS 3+ is hardly noodle levels.

It's a fricking shooting army. Of course their hero is going to be good at shooting.

I don't feel bad running my Techpriest Dominus with his fairly decent BS. Nor my Marine Captains. There is nothing wrong with an army's hero exemplifying that army's trait.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The only reasonable thing in here is a Subcommander. Crisis Bodyguards aren't any different to standard Crisis pilots; they get drawn from the same ranks. If Bodyguards go BS3+, then normal should too.

Realistically:
We need variant suit commanders to be able to be taken. We need subcommanders/specialist "leaders" being added. We should be getting some Stealth Suit equipped 'assassin' styled HQ choices, some Broadside equipped 'artillery officers', etc.


Hmm, bodyguards are more experienced than regular teams: they are all Shas'vre, and they are more veteran than crisis team leaders since that's what they used to be before advancing. They're also the commanders personal aides. So yes, they are different. I also wouldn't mind WS 4+ while we're at it since that's what they used to have at least. Make that 3A stat useful.

Bodyguards are usually those individuals that have served with the commanders the longest. They're no more "veteran" than crisis team leaders, they're just promoted.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.
The suit cost is fine, but if it must, drop it to maybe around 38-40 points. Crisis's statline cannot be justified at 25-30 points (M8", S5, T5, W3, SV+3, Deepstrike) The weapons could be adjusted seeing how AM has their weapons discounted for BS+4 models. Shield generators should be bumped up in cost - externally across the game, 8 pt is too cheap for ++4 on a T5 W3 model.


Well, compared to Custodes: 40 pts for M6" WS/BS 2+, T5, S5 Sv2+ and a 4++. Keep in mind that the suit needs to stack on weapons to get any use, which ups the cost significantly. A suit with 2 burst cannons and ATS runs at 70ish points. A 2 fusion + shield suit runs at 90 pts. Dropping down to 25 pts base would net 55 pts and 75 pts respectively. (just an example, numbers are a little off). 75 pts for two melta shots at BS4+ is considerable. For 84 pts, scions can get 4 melta at BS3+.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Dandelion wrote:
spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly.
Commanders are HARDLY basic HQ...

Think of it this way - Tau is the only army that can customize a named character level HQ. This means you choose the relic, warlord trait, weapon load outs, etc.

Think about it.
   
 
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