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When measuring the 12" for the Alaitoc, Alpha Legion, and other similar traits, do you measure to determine if each model is within 12" or each unit? So when half a unit is within 12" does the entire unit lose the negative modifier or only the half that is within 12"?

 Kharneth wrote:
When measuring the 12" for the Alaitoc, Alpha Legion, and other similar traits, do you measure to determine if each model is within 12" or each unit? So when half a unit is within 12" does the entire unit lose the negative modifier or only the half that is within 12"?

First page of the core rules, Sidebar: Tools of War

Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from.

If the closest models of each unit are within 12", then no trait. If the closest models are more than 12", then you benefit from the trait.

On second thought, maybe not.

Your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls for attacks that target a unit with this attribute at a range of more than 12".

The shooting rules say

In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)

So I think it might be on a model by model basis. Models that are within 12" don't have a penalty, and models that are more than 12" do have a penalty.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
When measuring the 12" for the Alaitoc, Alpha Legion, and other similar traits, do you measure to determine if each model is within 12" or each unit? So when half a unit is within 12" does the entire unit lose the negative modifier or only the half that is within 12"?

First page of the core rules, Sidebar: Tools of War

Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from.

If the closest models of each unit are within 12", then no trait. If the closest models are more than 12", then you benefit from the trait.

That doesn't seem to say that, though.

If you have 1 guy within 12" can you rapid fire with the entire unit?

Yeah I edited my post. On a second reading it seems that because it says "attacks" and not "attacks made by a unit", it's on a model by model basis. Not unprecedented, for example you could have one broadside with a Velocity Tracker and one without shooting a Supersonic model, one suffers a penalty, the other doesn't.

My own stupid fault for relying on my faulty memory!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah I edited my post. On a second reading it seems that because it says "attacks" and not "attacks made by a unit", it's on a model by model basis. Not unprecedented, for example you could have one broadside with a Velocity Tracker and one without shooting a Supersonic model, one suffers a penalty, the other doesn't.

My own stupid fault for relying on my faulty memory!

No worries!

Thanks

Judging from the rules text I'd say it's the same as measuring line of sight or rapid fire range:
you measure from each firing model to the closest model of the target unit resulting in the possibility that half your unit has to subtract 1 and half doesnt (the latter would now also have double attacks due to rapid fire (if applicable)).

While on the subject: how does -1 to hit behave in overwatch?
the legion traits obviously play no role here due to the 12" requirement, but what about psychic powers like "Glamour of Tzeentch" where distance doesnt matter?
are units affected by that impossible to hit in overwatch? due to every 6 turning to a 5?

Cradle.of.chaos wrote:


While on the subject: how does -1 to hit behave in overwatch?

You still hit on 6's, but other effects of the weapon still apply - for example, supercharging plasma would overheat on a 1-2 if you have the -1, while you hit on a 6.

 doctortom wrote:

Cradle.of.chaos wrote:


While on the subject: how does -1 to hit behave in overwatch?

You still hit on 6's, but other effects of the weapon still apply - for example, supercharging plasma would overheat on a 1-2 if you have the -1, while you hit on a 6.

Yeah. In the Overwatch rules it explicitly states that it is unaffected by modifiers (negative or positive). What doctortom says is important, because effects that go off on 6+, for example, are still affected by the modifier. So Tesla guns that gain bonus shots on 6s will not do so when overwatching at -1 to hit. Likewise, if the Tesla guns had +1 to hit they would "explode" on 5+ instead of 6+, even during overwatch (though another thread is arguing about whether it's possible to gain extra shots in such a situation when the initial shot missed).

 Kharneth wrote:
... Likewise, if the Tesla guns had +1 to hit they would "explode" on 5+ instead of 6+, even during overwatch (though another thread is arguing about whether it's possible to gain extra shots in such a situation when the initial shot missed).

It is not possible to get 3 hits instead of 1 if you were firing Tesla guns with a +1 to hit during overwatch. You need a 6+ to hit, not a 5+

If you cannot fire any weapons can you still pop smoke?

nevermind, had the rule wrong

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you cannot fire any weapons can you still pop smoke?

Yes, as expressly allowed by the FAQ.

As confirmed by the faq

So if you did not hit, can you do something else instead?
In otherwords
Even if you do not hit, you still get three hits.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
... Likewise, if the Tesla guns had +1 to hit they would "explode" on 5+ instead of 6+, even during overwatch (though another thread is arguing about whether it's possible to gain extra shots in such a situation when the initial shot missed).

It is not possible to get 3 hits instead of 1 if you were firing Tesla guns with a +1 to hit during overwatch. You need a 6+ to hit, not a 5+

Yes it is possible to get 3 hits instead of 1 in overwatch on a 5+. You may not like it, but the rules are clear.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you cannot fire any weapons can you still pop smoke?

Yes, as per the FAQ.

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes it is possible to get 3 hits instead of 1 in overwatch on a 5+. You may not like it, but the rules are clear.

No. A roll of 5 remains a 5, and is not a hit in overwatch. The +1 modifier is ignored. You cant get 3 hits instead of 1, when you dont get the 1 hit. You must score a hit to trigger the tesla rule. You may not like it, but the rules are clear.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes it is possible to get 3 hits instead of 1 in overwatch on a 5+. You may not like it, but the rules are clear.

No. A roll of 5 remains a 5, and is not a hit in overwatch. The +1 modifier is ignored. You cant get 3 hits instead of 1, when you dont get the 1 hit. You must score a hit to trigger the tesla rule. You may not like it, but the rules are clear.

The -1 modifier is NOT ignored. Please show me where the word "ignored" is used in the overwatch rules. A +1 won't let you hit on a 5, but it will trigger Tesla. Likewise, a -1 to hit will still hit on a six, and cause Plasma/CIB etc to trigger on a 1 or 2.

If you somehow have a -5 and fire overcharged plasma in overwatch, it will always overheat and it will hit on a 6.

There's no reason to have the same conversation again.

The Telsa discussion has been addressed nicely in https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/758667.page , including reference to a related FAQ answer that indicates that you miss. Let's have this conversation over there.

 alextroy wrote:
The Telsa discussion has been addressed nicely in https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/758667.page, including reference to a related FAQ answer that indicates that you miss. Let's have this conversation over there.

The Riddlesmith FAQ applies ONLY to Riddlesmith. Otherwise I can claim the Smoke Launchers FAQ is applicable here too.

Please don’t make nonsensical arguments. The Smoke Launcher FAQ (action instead of Shooting) has no relation to this issue, so it isn’t illuminating in any way. Statements like this make it hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

The Riddlesmith FAQ creates a presidence that adding hits based on a rule of a specific Hit roll gives those additional Hits the same Hit roll. That is illuminating to the issue at hand.

 alextroy wrote:
Please don’t make nonsensical arguments. The Smoke Launcher FAQ (action instead of Shooting) has no relation to this issue, so it isn’t illuminating in any way. Statements like this make it hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

The Riddlesmith FAQ creates a presidence that adding hits based on a rule of a specific Hit roll gives those additional Hits the same Hit roll. That is illuminating to the issue at hand.

Yet neither FAQ applies to Tesla, you can't have it both ways.

One applies to what happens when you roll an attack, making it relevant if not definitive. The other does not. Siting irrelevant data in an argument is at best pointless and at worst disenginous.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
... Likewise, if the Tesla guns had +1 to hit they would "explode" on 5+ instead of 6+, even during overwatch (though another thread is arguing about whether it's possible to gain extra shots in such a situation when the initial shot missed).

It is not possible to get 3 hits instead of 1 if you were firing Tesla guns with a +1 to hit during overwatch. You need a 6+ to hit, not a 5+

Yes it is possible to get 3 hits instead of 1 in overwatch on a 5+. You may not like it, but the rules are clear.

No it is not, because a 5 with a +1 to hit is not a hit in overwatch. Only a 6 is a hit in overwatch. A 5 is a miss, and you do not get 3 hits instead of 0 hits, you only get 3 hits instead of 1 hit.

So your argument is not correct.

You may not like it, but you are right, the rules are clear.

Agreed. It’s nonsensical to say you get 3 hits instead of 1 if you haven’t hit in the first place.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Agreed. It’s nonsensical to say you get 3 hits instead of 1 if you haven’t hit in the first place.

It's weird for sure, but it is RAW. The rule says if you roll 6+ you get 3 hits. The 'instead of 1' bit does make it read clumsily in this circumstance, but I don't see how that overrides the actual rule to be honest.

Who's to say the intention though wasn't for there to be a chance that the Tesla gun unleashes a flamer style wall of electricity that would be impossible to avoid?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The -1 modifier is NOT ignored. Please show me where the word "ignored" is used in the overwatch rules.

Ok, it doesnt say ignored. It says irrespective of any modifiers. Which is the same result. The modifier does not count.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The -1 modifier is NOT ignored. Please show me where the word "ignored" is used in the overwatch rules.

Ok, it doesnt say ignored. It says irrespective of any modifiers. Which is the same result. The modifier does not count.

That isn't what irrespective means. From your flag I assume English isn't your first language. Irrespective doesn't mean ignore, it means "to not take into account" (a subtle but important difference), in this case you're only "not taking into account" the modifiers when deciding if you hit or not, you still apply the modifiers to everything else.

BRB pg 182 under heading "Overwatch"

Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

Modifiers are ignored because overwatch states that a roll of a 6 is needed, regardless of Balistics Skill or Modifiers

That's correct. During Overwatch the modifiers are not ignored, they just don't apply to Overwatch itself.

Stux wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Agreed. It’s nonsensical to say you get 3 hits instead of 1 if you haven’t hit in the first place.

It's weird for sure, but it is RAW. The rule says if you roll 6+ you get 3 hits. The 'instead of 1' bit does make it read clumsily in this circumstance, but I don't see how that overrides the actual rule to be honest.

Who's to say the intention though wasn't for there to be a chance that the Tesla gun unleashes a flamer style wall of electricity that would be impossible to avoid?

No, the RAW is that you get 3 hits instead of one; you don't get to ignore the "instead of 1" part because you find it inconvenient. By RAW, you would therefore have to have 1 hit in the first place that can be the "instead of" replaced by 3 hits. If you don't get the first hit, you don't get 3 hits.