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As a reminder, this is a site for discussing miniatures gaming. Discussion of contentious issues like politics is not the point of posting on Dakka Dakka. There is an ongoing debate about whether it should even be allowed. I have specifically volunteered to moderate only and not participate in this discussion. In addition to using the normal alert system, please feel free to PM me directly regarding this thread.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/05 14:37:29


   
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Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak and creating a rift between Trump and Melania. First we saw her put down Giuliani and now she has publicly come out against her husband's policy (only weakly trying to hide it a little by the "they have to work together" line),as he can stop it by himself. Trump, surprisingly has come out of left field to go after Merkel and spread some more lies about Germany and immigration:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44524873
Trump: The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!


Some interesting and stupid occurrences.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/18 17:39:36


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Fort Campbell

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak and creating a rift between Trump and Melania. First we saw her put down Giuliani and now she has publicly come out against her husband's policy (only weakly trying to hide it a little by the "they have to work together" line),as he can stop it by himself. Trump, surprisingly has come out of left field to go after Merkel and spread some more lies about Germany and immigration:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44524873
Trump: The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!


Some interesting and stupid occurrences.


I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.

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orem, Utah

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak


honestly I've been shocked at the amount of defense this action has gotten

are you going to keep talking about it, or do something already? 
   
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Going off of Trump's statement that America needs more military presence in space.

Can we talk about the logistics of a space military? What would actually need to be done in order to have what could conceivably be a presence in space beyond satellites.

Seeing as no one has claimed space could this lead to an arms race for territories in our solar system?

I jest but I actually do wonder.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 17:54:10


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On the child-separation topic...

DHS Secretary Nielsen says on Twitter on Sunday that "We have no policy of separating families at the border".

DHS Secretary Nielsen say on Monday that they will not apologize for doing their jobs and that the meda should not be trusted and that the Children they dont have a policy of separating are doing fine in their separation.

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 djones520 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak and creating a rift between Trump and Melania. First we saw her put down Giuliani and now she has publicly come out against her husband's policy (only weakly trying to hide it a little by the "they have to work together" line),as he can stop it by himself. Trump, surprisingly has come out of left field to go after Merkel and spread some more lies about Germany and immigration:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44524873
Trump: The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!


Some interesting and stupid occurrences.


I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.

Of course, its existed for a good while now, but its catching a lot of attention due to what the administration is doing, honestly before we got Sessions making the bible comment it was just a low rumble. The issue is that it became Trump's policy when he refused to take responsibility and pawn it off on democrats. Trump has the power to stop it today if he wants too, but instead he blames it on the democrats. It doesn't work that way, you can't blame something on someone else when you hold the power to stop it. His admin is pushing it and using the bible and democrats to justify it, that's pretty new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 soundwave591 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak


honestly I've been shocked at the amount of defense this action has gotten

Honestly I'm more shocked at how outright terrible the defense has been, of all the ways to approach a defense they took the most incendiary manner possible when they started quoting the bible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Going off of Trump's statement that America needs more military presence in space.

Can we talk about the logistics of a space military? What would actually need to be done in order to have what could conceivably be a presence in space beyond satellites.

Seeing as no one has claimed space could this lead to an arms race for territories in our solar system?

I jest but I actually do wonder.

Well the Outer Space Treaty the US is a signatory of specifically prohibits claiming territory by the military in space. You would be basically tied to some weapons satellites in orbit as long as they aren't WMDs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:01:35


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Misquoting (imo) and agreed it's terrible . There's plenty more about being kind to the alien, orphan and widow...

Good to see a lot of groups that normally tolerate Trump pushing back on this, though. I hope they get it sorted quickly!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:06:15


 
   
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Well we already have Kinetic Bombardment satellites in space, as they are not covered under the space armament treaty

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Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

There are a lot of Trump policies I disagree with, but at least generally there is some underlying logic to why they exist, or at least, you know, some lobby that is being serviced by them.

The child separation policy is remarkable in that it serves no lobby or purpose other than sheer fething awfulness. I suspect that Trump will walk it back over the next couple of days, and then claim to be a good guy to ending (non-existent) policy that was (not actually) pushed by the Democrats (despite the fact his own administration invented it). You can see this with NK, where he ratcheted up tension and then took credit for alleviating it.

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Well when the administration uses the Bible as a justification for them to separate the children and even Sessions church thinks he has gone beyond the pale, you know it is getting bad

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


Can you cite this? If you're talking about child seperation, I don't believe this is factually accurate. You can't tell me that if the Obama administration had been separating migrant children from their parents at the border, not one single media personality or element of the right wing wouldn't have made hay of it in the last 8 years.

And, in fact, this wasn't a problem for over an entire year of the Trump administration. So I definitely would like to see you show that this routine separation of children from their parents at the border was a common wide practice for 20 years, instead of about 2 months ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:16:07


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.

But that's Trump being Trump, as for now he has to get rid off the treaty and then there are still huge technological and financial obstacles to anything effective.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Ustrello wrote:


Well when the administration uses the Bible as a justification for them to separate the children and even Sessions church thinks he has gone beyond the pale, you know it is getting bad



Actually the Catholic Church is considering 'Canonical Penalties' to Catholics who participate in this:
http://www.newsweek.com/catholic-bishop-suggests-canonical-penalties-catholics-help-carry-out-trump-975834

BISHOP PROPOSES ‘CANONICAL PENALTIES’ FOR CATHOLICS WHO HELP CARRY OUT TRUMP IMMIGRATION PLAN

Bishop Edward Weisenburger of Arizona suggested that penalties be put in place for Catholics who help carry out President Donald Trump’s immigration policy of separating families who cross the United States border illegally. He made the recommendation while speaking at the spring meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Wednesday.

“Canonical penalties are there in place to heal,” he said, according to Religion News Service. “And therefore, for the salvation of these people’s souls, maybe it’s time for us to look at canonical penalties.”

A canonical penalty is defined as a punishment imposed by the church, which could include purgatory or excommunication. Catholic church laws are outlined in the Code of Canon law, a system of laws for regulation within the church.

Others joined Weisenburger in denouncement of the Trump immigration policy, which was introduced by Attorney General Jeff Sessions. Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, president of the USCCB, read a statement at the event. “Our government has the discretion in our laws to ensure that young children are not separated from their parents and exposed to irreparable harm and trauma. Families are the foundational element of our society and they must be able to stay together,” he said. “Separating babies from their mothers is not the answer and is immoral.”

According to RNS, DiNardo asked the room of religious figures to clap if they agreed with him and the crowd “erupted in applause.”

The immigration plan was introduced as a “zero tolerance” policy earlier this month, designed to deter Central American families from crossing the border. One of the new provisions, as outlined by Attorney General Jeff Sessions, allows children to be separated from their parents when they are apprehended for trying to cross the border illegally.

“If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law,” Sessions said, outlining the Trump administration’s stricter immigration stance. “If you don’t like that, then don’t smuggle children over our border.”

The new immigration policy states that charged adults get sent to federal court while children are sent to the Department of Health and Human Services’s Office of Refugee Resettlement. In April, members of the Trump administration testified they lost track of nearly 1,500 undocumented minors that had been taken into custody.

Trump, who identifies as Presbyterian, has advocated for heightened border security and a border wall since taking office and throughout his campaign.



I'm not Catholic, or even Christian, but I will give the Church credit where it is due. This is plainly immoral, and as a nation, we cannot claim to be the best bastion of freedom, and pull crap like this.

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 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.


Putting military personnel in space is pointless. They are incredibly vulnerable whilst they're up there, sustaining their presence would cost a fortune, they wouldn't be able to deploy to earth discreetly (their orbit would be known and so the point at which they'd need to begin reentry to arrive at a set location would be calculable) and there is no point in having any non WMD weapon in orbit and WMDs are banned and we seriously don't want nuclear proliferation into earth orbit.

Basically, Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand the first thing about space exploration/travel. He probably just watched Starship Troopers or something before his speech.

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 Ouze wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


Can you cite this? If you're talking about child seperation, I don't believe this is factually accurate. You can't tell me that if the Obama administration had been separating migrant children from their parents at the border, not one single media personality or element of the right wing wouldn't have made hay of it in the last 8 years.

And, in fact, this wasn't a problem for over an entire year of the Trump administration. So I definitely would like to see you show that this routine separation of children from their parents at the border was a common wide practice for 20 years, instead of about 2 months ago.

The policy to be able to existed right? Its just that it was rarely enforced up until the current administration?

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The policy to be able to existed right? Its just that it was rarely enforced up until the current administration?


Long answer here, but essentially simply border crossing - a misdemeanor - was not usually criminally referred. As such there were no routine, widespread separations of children.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:29:03


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.


Putting military personnel in space is pointless. They are incredibly vulnerable whilst they're up there, sustaining their presence would cost a fortune, they wouldn't be able to deploy to earth discreetly (their orbit would be known and so the point at which they'd need to begin reentry to arrive at a set location would be calculable) and there is no point in having any non WMD weapon in orbit and WMDs are banned and we seriously don't want nuclear proliferation into earth orbit.

Basically, Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand the first thing about space exploration/travel. He probably just watched Starship Troopers or something before his speech.

I would assume we will never see the deployment of anything resembling an effective military in space for at least our lifetime if ever depending on where the technical limitations are going to be.

As for Trump, maybe when people tell him illegal aliens are coming to kill and rob in the US he thinks they mean Arachnids


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The policy to be able to existed right? Its just that it was rarely enforced up until the current administration?


Long answer here.

When you said long answer I kind of felt let down when it was done in two scrolls. From my read on it, this could have been done before, but other admins didn't go for the heavy handed persecution approach that mandates separating families. So it is his policy in the end then. Thanks

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:31:31


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Leerstetten, Germany

 Ouze wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


Can you cite this? If you're talking about child seperation, I don't believe this is factually accurate. You can't tell me that if the Obama administration had been separating migrant children from their parents at the border, not one single media personality or element of the right wing wouldn't have made hay of it in the last 8 years.

And, in fact, this wasn't a problem for over an entire year of the Trump administration. So I definitely would like to see you show that this routine separation of children from their parents at the border was a common wide practice for 20 years, instead of about 2 months ago.


It has been policy that we don’t lock up the children for 20 years. For the past 20 years we have managed to avoid separating children and parents by also not locking up the parents. So it’s not wrong to claim that the policy existed under Clinton/Bush/Obama, it is wrong to claim that they have all solved the problem the policy created in the same way as the current administration.




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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 18:38:32


 
   
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On the one hand, the Space Force sounds like kind of a stupid idea, should really be stuff the Air Force does, and seems like a cheap and quick distraction from yet another unfortunate news cycle full of the usual self-inflicted wounds.

On the other hand, any US Marines that are inducted into the Space Force are going to be, by definition, Space Marines. So we'd have that going for us.

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 d-usa wrote:

I need to find out who I need to talk to for an Interservice Transfer to the Space Force. I hope they get cool uniforms.
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 Vaktathi wrote:
 d-usa wrote:

I need to find out who I need to talk to for an Interservice Transfer to the Space Force. I hope they get cool uniforms.
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Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Am I surprised? No. Should I be surprised? Also probably no


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/392756-poll-kim-jong-un-has-higher-approval-among-republicans-than-pelosi

More Republicans view North Korean leader Kim Jong Un favorably than do House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), according to a poll released Monday.

The Ipsos survey conducted for the Daily Beast found that among Republicans, 19 percent indicated they hold a favorable opinion of Kim, while 17 percent said they have a favorable opinion of Pelosi.

Sixty-eight percent of Republicans said they held an unfavorable opinion of Kim, while 72 percent said they had an unfavorable view of Pelosi.

“On a daily basis, President Trump praises this dictator and thug so it only makes sense that his party is following his lead like lemmings over a cliff," Pelosi spokesman Drew Hammill wrote in an email to The Hill responding to the poll findings.

The spokesman also pointed to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's (R-Ky.) unfavorable rating in the Ipsos poll, saying he "is the most unpopular politician in the country." The poll found that only 20 percent of all respondents have a favorable opinion of the majority leader.

Republicans have long criticized Pelosi, using her in campaign ads to rally their base. Meanwhile, the survey results involving Kim come just one week after President Trump’s historic summit with the North Korean leader in Singapore, where the two leaders discussed reining in Pyongyang's nuclear program.

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 Ouze wrote:
There are a lot of Trump policies I disagree with, but at least generally there is some underlying logic to why they exist, or at least, you know, some lobby that is being serviced by them.

The child separation policy is remarkable in that it serves no lobby or purpose other than sheer fething awfulness. I suspect that Trump will walk it back over the next couple of days, and then claim to be a good guy to ending (non-existent) policy that was (not actually) pushed by the Democrats (despite the fact his own administration invented it). You can see this with NK, where he ratcheted up tension and then took credit for alleviating it.
It seems that this is a ham-handed tactic to extort funding for the border wall in exchange for ending child seperation: use existing policy to do something Dems don't like, make them get blame for it, force them to come to the table to end it, get funding for wall and cause political damage to the Dems. But that's obviously not going to work like that, so it's gross political incompetence.

It's also the most morally disgusting action the US has taken this century and I wouldn't be surprised to see it remain as such even when the century is over. Hell short of Jim Crowe laws level policy I'm having trouble thinking of anything the US has done post civil war that's this bad. At least in Japanese internment camps they didn't separate the families.

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It strikes me as being a tad bit premature to start working on a space force at the moment. On one hand, if it leads to NASA getting more funding to develop new stuff, great. On the other hand, the militarization of space is not a happy thought. The exploration of what lies beyond our planet should be something that unites us.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 19:43:57


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I could see a NASA Commissioned Corps, similar to NOAA and USPHS, which would also seem to help with the whole non-militarized space treaties that we are signatories to.
   
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Well we arent quite at the space elevator or Gundam level of tech yet for a space force

But sounds just like another deal (treaty) that Trump either wants to back out of, or someone is telling him he wants to back out of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 20:04:24


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 WrentheFaceless wrote:


But sounds just like another deal (treaty) that Trump either wants to back out of, or someone is telling him he wants to back out of.


Honestly, it sounds more like someone is trying to sell him something, literally. Like there are some companies out there already positioned to make money off this.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Monarchy of TBD

Yeah, as I understand it we are really, really good at knocking man made things out of orbit from Earth, with ASATs, and the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle (I love everything about that name!)

What advantage could be gained from a Space Force right now? Orbit seems both very well covered, and a remarkably dangerous place to put troops.

It doesn't so much strike me as unnecessary as premature.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
 
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