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...That works well and is fun? With the return of B5 to mainstream streaming, I've found my interest in spaceship tabletop gaming piqued for the first time since the belly flop of Spartan Games' Halo Fleet Battles. With B5's use of real physics instead of WW2 in space! Style combat, I've been thinking about how to portray it. Has there ever been a successful (mechanically, not necessarily in terms of sales) vector/physics based ruleset that was fun as well? I don't recall playing one despite going to Gencon for over a decade during the height of that genre.

I found these two (attack vector and hard vacuum) but I'd have to see if any intro or full rules are available for free download as I have no experience with them.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6767/attack-vector-tactical
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3340/hard-vacuum

Have you heard of Triplanetary? It is on the simple end of vector movement and gaming, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Been OOP for a while, but Steve Jackson Games will have a few copies from their recent Kickstarter on sale soon.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3637/triplanetary

 totalfailure wrote:
Have you heard of Triplanetary? It is on the simple end of vector movement and gaming, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Been OOP for a while, but Steve Jackson Games will have a few copies from their recent Kickstarter on sale soon.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3637/triplanetary

Thanks, no, I haven't. I edited the post in the meantime to include two others I found in a search but have no experience with.

I played it quite a bit back in the 80s, an eternity ago. Like I said, it is on the simple side of things, but that makes a game that is easier to learn/teach, and is still fun. I backed the Kickstarter and should have my new edition copy soon, but they are selling a few also...
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/triplanetary

Honor Harrington on the table?

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17022/saganami-island-tactical-simulator

 Manchu wrote:
Honor Harrington on the table?

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17022/saganami-island-tactical-simulator

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that one either. That one appears to be a variation of the Attack Vector one I posted above. There's a third one (squadron strike) that shares the same company/core rules/designer as well that I'll have to try and compare/contrast between.

http://www.adastragames.com/news/comparison

Attack Vector: Tactical (and its spin offs) is kind of the granddaddy of vector-based, 3d starship games. It's pretty good, but it is not a light game, rivaling Star Fleet Battles for complexity. It does a decent job of handling 3d space, though, which is generally fairly complex when you also include vector movement.

The venerated Full Thrust also has a vector movement system and is pretty good, though doesn't really do 3d so it's still semi-naval warfare.

Guess I need to ramp up the order of my game design ideas and get the "3d space combat thingie" as it's currently listed in my doc going.

I was on a similar hunt before and Full Thrust came closest to what I was after (the no 3d being a plus for me), I found that Attack vector was just too dense and complicated. I ended up going back to ACTA, though physics don't come in to play at all its at least B5 and easy/quick!

There is supposed to be a game coming out for Battlestar Galactica which sounds ideal for what you are after, will hunt down the link later.

 Valander wrote:
Attack Vector: Tactical (and its spin offs) is kind of the granddaddy of vector-based, 3d starship games. It's pretty good, but it is not a light game, rivaling Star Fleet Battles for complexity. It does a decent job of handling 3d space, though, which is generally fairly complex when you also include vector movement.

The venerated Full Thrust also has a vector movement system and is pretty good, though doesn't really do 3d so it's still semi-naval warfare.

Guess I need to ramp up the order of my game design ideas and get the "3d space combat thingie" as it's currently listed in my doc going.

IIRC Full Thrust has a quasi-vector based movement ruleset (in that when you turn you instantly lose that portion of the forward momentum) so that you're always moving the same direction you're facing as opposed to turning one way and still moving the other. Has it changed recently? I admittedly haven't played it in over a decade so it might have.

Re: SFB levels of complexity... eek! I was a fan of the FASA ruleset back in the day in large part because it was less complex that SFB (and even FASA nowadays would be considered an overly clunky ruleset). I was a bit concerned about that aspect when I saw in the comparison link that it supports 1-2 ships per player only but I appreciate the more direct confirmation of that. I fully realize that level of complexity is a completely valid way of playing and power to players who like it but it's not for me. Any thoughts on the supposedly simplified Squadron Strike version? It says it supports 3-6 ships per player.

 warboss wrote:


IIRC Full Thrust has a quasi-vector based movement ruleset (in that when you turn you instantly lose that portion of the forward momentum) so that you're always moving the same direction you're facing as opposed to turning one way and still moving the other. Has it changed recently? I admittedly haven't played it in over a decade so it might have.

They introduced a more vector based movement in either Fleet Book 1 or 2, I forget exactly which. But yeah, the "default" rules is more the "continual thrust whichever way you're pointing".

Of course, the good thing with FT is the rules are free, so...

https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/rules.html

Edit: Maybe it was in "More Thrust" that they put the vector system in. Either way, looks like all of the rules are on GZG's site for free download, so worth taking a look if you're interested.

 Valander wrote:

 warboss wrote:


IIRC Full Thrust has a quasi-vector based movement ruleset (in that when you turn you instantly lose that portion of the forward momentum) so that you're always moving the same direction you're facing as opposed to turning one way and still moving the other. Has it changed recently? I admittedly haven't played it in over a decade so it might have.

They introduced a more vector based movement in either Fleet Book 1 or 2, I forget exactly which. But yeah, the "default" rules is more the "continual thrust whichever way you're pointing".

Of course, the good thing with FT is the rules are free, so...

https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/rules.html

Edit: Maybe it was in "More Thrust" that they put the vector system in. Either way, looks like all of the rules are on GZG's site for free download, so worth taking a look if you're interested.

Thanks. Before I posted I looked at the normal FT rules to refresh myself and double check but I didn't look at the supplements admittedly. I was very familiar with the ruleset as I played it with a buddy and even adapted it to our own version usable on a grid with proper sensor rules. I haven't kept up with though over 10+ years. Regardless, I'll take another look. Maybe something there will suit my fancy.

Had a reread of the BSG thing;

http://www.aresgames.eu/20715

Maybe not, release date unknown but being previewed at GenCon.

Warboss, do you still have any of your B5 minis?

 Manchu wrote:
Honor Harrington on the table?

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17022/saganami-island-tactical-simulator

It doesn't look like that one is supported or in print anymore on their website. There's obviously the secondary market though so I'll check out the reviews.

edit: It looks like the Squadron Strike game is the spiritual successor to that. "Building off of the streamlined 3-D movement engine of Saganami Island Tactical Simulator, 2nd Edition, Squadron Strike lets you build any ship, from any setting, in full 3-D glory—and then pit them against each other, in titanic battles for the fate of galaxies." https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36903/squadron-strike


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ingtaer wrote:
Had a reread of the BSG thing;

http://www.aresgames.eu/20715

Maybe not, release date unknown but being previewed at GenCon.

Warboss, do you still have any of your B5 minis?

Not much other than my fleet action scale fighters (which I kept just in case for other game systems and planned to use with Halo Fleet Battles). I sold off most of my stuff a few years back. A friend pretty much had a complete collection of Fleet Action by AOG and provided most of the minis for the game. I had a smattering of Minbari and Earth Force with a mix of Fleet Action and B5 Wars scale. I personally preferred the Fleet Action rules but the scale and model count of the larger Wars scale (with the more appropriate Fleet Action fighters 6 to a base for it).

Cool, I just bought a copy of FA along with Cascor and Hyach fleets, never played it myself as I went from Wars to ACTA so I am looking forward to seeing how it plays. Though I might need some binoculars so I can actually see what fighter is what!

If you are thinking of rebuying B5 stuff I highly recommend looking at shapeways, got 2 very highquality Whitestars for $15, they are a little longer than the Mongoose/AOG models but you cant really tell on the tabletop.

Try looking into Hatd Vacuum by Fat Messiah Games. A very fun alternate WWII history game, and has excellent rules for designing your owns ships.

I spent MANY hours just making up goofy ship designs just for fun.

...well, there's the old Jovian Chronicles, you might have heard about it

Attack Vector looks heavy, but I found that I got the hang of flying the ship reasonably quickly. Laser combat was also pretty straightforward. Never made it as far as the missile or projectile weapons rules.

For Babylon 5, contrary to popular belief there's not that much "Newtonian" movement in it - the fighters mostly, and a White Star when the plot demands it. I'd go with something like Squadron Strike of Full Thrust to allow you to use both "Newtonian" and "powerboat"-style movement in the same game as required.

For Full Thrust, it might also be worth looking for a copy of the Earth Force Sourcebook for the Babylon Project RPG. That was a full set of warship combat rules using Full Thrust as the basis, with a few unique systems. Some of which might have made it into the various playtest fleet lists for FT a few years later.

NH Gunsmith wrote:Try looking into Hatd Vacuum by Fat Messiah Games. A very fun alternate WWII history game, and has excellent rules for designing your owns ships.

I spent MANY hours just making up goofy ship designs just for fun.

Yeah, that one came up in my quick search in the first post. It's good to hear that it has ship creation as if I start supporting it then it'll be universe agnostic with Battlestars going up against Minbari after an encounter with the UNSC.

Albertorius wrote:...well, there's the old Jovian Chronicles, you might have heard about it

Possibly... I may also have a copy of both it and Lightning Strike yellowing somewhere in a box in the basement. I never got really into it and my only experience with it was a few Gencon games during its heyday. I don't recall it having ship construction (at least with Lightning Strike) though but maybe the original did. That's a bit of a different scale though then the small fleet on fleet (3-6 ships per player) that might be my personal sweet spot.

AndrewGPaul wrote:Attack Vector looks heavy, but I found that I got the hang of flying the ship reasonably quickly. Laser combat was also pretty straightforward. Never made it as far as the missile or projectile weapons rules.

For Babylon 5, contrary to popular belief there's not that much "Newtonian" movement in it - the fighters mostly, and a White Star when the plot demands it. I'd go with something like Squadron Strike of Full Thrust to allow you to use both "Newtonian" and "powerboat"-style movement in the same game as required.

For Full Thrust, it might also be worth looking for a copy of the Earth Force Sourcebook for the Babylon Project RPG. That was a full set of warship combat rules using Full Thrust as the basis, with a few unique systems. Some of which might have made it into the various playtest fleet lists for FT a few years later.

They have a demo pdf of Squadron Strike that I might try. Reading reviews though makes it sound like it is very crunchy despite the claims of streamlining but those same reviews usually say it's worth it in the end as well as you said. I looked to see if there are any tutorials online but haven't seen any on youtube other than a pc-based prototype 1 1/2 hour video that assumes you already know the system well that was posted by the creator.

I wasn't aware of the Full Thrust supplement for B5 so will have to look that one up.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ingtaer wrote:
Cool, I just bought a copy of FA along with Cascor and Hyach fleets, never played it myself as I went from Wars to ACTA so I am looking forward to seeing how it plays. Though I might need some binoculars so I can actually see what fighter is what!

If you are thinking of rebuying B5 stuff I highly recommend looking at shapeways, got 2 very highquality Whitestars for $15, they are a little longer than the Mongoose/AOG models but you cant really tell on the tabletop.

Did you order in FUD or FED? (or whatever they recently renamed them to) I've still got my rulebooks surprisingly even when I sold off the ships. I figured they wouldn't be worth much in resale and cost alot to ship due to weight so kept them for the full color art. My old group was for a very short time B5 wars focused but then moved quickly to Fleet Action for the spectacle of having lots of ships. The friend with the massive painted collection of figs who ran the games just basically asked you to show up to play and eat so it was a win win for everyone. I found myself though (as I mentioned above) preferring the fleet action rules but with squadrons the size of B5 wars games instead. That got you a shorter game without as much super detailed Battletech style rolling on sequential tables instead of the massive 8-10 hour fleet engagement my friend would run.

Did ACTA use fleet scale fighters since you're worried about the size? I always thought they used the bigger one fig per base fighters but I never actually played it as by that time with multiple will they/won't they moves from AOG I wasn't confident in the future of the game. Plus, I wasn't a fan of the movies they were coming out with which also dampened my enthusiasm to play an IP related game.

No one’s mentioned Renegade:Interceptor from FASA yet? Also, Aerotech had vectored combat, as I recall. Interceptor was the superior game, IMHO.

The Fading Suns game had a vector-based space combat game as well, but it focused on capital ship combat, not fighters.

 warboss wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ingtaer wrote:
Cool, I just bought a copy of FA along with Cascor and Hyach fleets, never played it myself as I went from Wars to ACTA so I am looking forward to seeing how it plays. Though I might need some binoculars so I can actually see what fighter is what!

If you are thinking of rebuying B5 stuff I highly recommend looking at shapeways, got 2 very highquality Whitestars for $15, they are a little longer than the Mongoose/AOG models but you cant really tell on the tabletop.

Did you order in FUD or FED? (or whatever they recently renamed them to) I've still got my rulebooks surprisingly even when I sold off the ships. I figured they wouldn't be worth much in resale and cost alot to ship due to weight so kept them for the full color art. My old group was for a very short time B5 wars focused but then moved quickly to Fleet Action for the spectacle of having lots of ships. The friend with the massive painted collection of figs who ran the games just basically asked you to show up to play and eat so it was a win win for everyone. I found myself though (as I mentioned above) preferring the fleet action rules but with squadrons the size of B5 wars games instead. That got you a shorter game without as much super detailed Battletech style rolling on sequential tables instead of the massive 8-10 hour fleet engagement my friend would run.

Did ACTA use fleet scale fighters since you're worried about the size? I always thought they used the bigger one fig per base fighters but I never actually played it as by that time with multiple will they/won't they moves from AOG I wasn't confident in the future of the game. Plus, I wasn't a fan of the movies they were coming out with which also dampened my enthusiasm to play an IP related game.

Yeah ordered the new FUD and its very good, I have a group shot in my gallery of six WS where some are metal and some printed and its pretty impossible to tell the difference.
ACTA just uses peg to peg measurement so the actual model is irrelevant though all the game materials use the FA bases of tiny fighters. I have been using the B5 Wars scale fighters with each model representing a squadron and whilst it looks a little silly I have found the convenience (as well as the fact that I can actually paint the models) to be worth it and it has no impact on game play.
Check out the campaign I have been running; https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/749665.page I don't think they look too bad.

Stormonu wrote:No one’s mentioned Renegade:Interceptor from FASA yet? Also, Aerotech had vectored combat, as I recall. Interceptor was the superior game, IMHO.

The Fading Suns game had a vector-based space combat game as well, but it focused on capital ship combat, not fighters.

I wasn't aware of it so that's my excuse, lol. Is it a fighter or ship based game? I'll have to do a search for it.

 ingtaer wrote:

Yeah ordered the new FUD and its very good, I have a group shot in my gallery of six WS where some are metal and some printed and its pretty impossible to tell the difference.
ACTA just uses peg to peg measurement so the actual model is irrelevant though all the game materials use the FA bases of tiny fighters. I have been using the B5 Wars scale fighters with each model representing a squadron and whilst it looks a little silly I have found the convenience (as well as the fact that I can actually paint the models) to be worth it and it has no impact on game play.
Check out the campaign I have been running; https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/749665.page I don't think they look too bad.

Glad to hear the quality is good. I've actually posted in your thread back when you started it but didn't connect the dots until now. If I ever end up playing something, it'll probably be an unholy mishmash of ships from multiple universes and not pure b5. I will sometime this week check to see what I actually have left.

Back to the original topic, I've boiled my choices down to Squadron Strike and Full Thrust with the vector rules that I wasn't aware of back in the day. I'd like to try something new and a true 3d system intrigues but SS sounds intimidating without some nice tutorial videos to look at first. The benefits to FT are that I was familiar with the rules and that 2d vector movement might be "good enough".

 warboss wrote:
Possibly... I may also have a copy of both it and Lightning Strike yellowing somewhere in a box in the basement. I never got really into it and my only experience with it was a few Gencon games during its heyday. I don't recall it having ship construction (at least with Lightning Strike) though but maybe the original did. That's a bit of a different scale though then the small fleet on fleet (3-6 ships per player) that might be my personal sweet spot.

I don't remember LS having construction rules, no, although I suppose you could use it to extrapolate from the regular VCS to LS. And of course, JC is designed to work on a "White Base + MS complement" level, so yeah, it's a bit smaller than what you'd prefer.

 warboss wrote:

Stormonu wrote:No one’s mentioned Renegade:Interceptor from FASA yet? Also, Aerotech had vectored combat, as I recall. Interceptor was the superior game, IMHO.

The Fading Suns game had a vector-based space combat game as well, but it focused on capital ship combat, not fighters.

I wasn't aware of it so that's my excuse, lol. Is it a fighter or ship based game? I'll have to do a search for it.

[

Fighter Based, there was also a capital ship version that integrated with it called Levithan

 warboss wrote:

NH Gunsmith wrote:Try looking into Hatd Vacuum by Fat Messiah Games. A very fun alternate WWII history game, and has excellent rules for designing your owns ships.

I spent MANY hours just making up goofy ship designs just for fun.

Yeah, that one came up in my quick search in the first post. It's good to hear that it has ship creation as if I start supporting it then it'll be universe agnostic with Battlestars going up against Minbari after an encounter with the UNSC.

Hah. I found a guy on Shapeways who make Battlestar Galactica Vipers... I soooo want somebody to play this game with just for that.

I've been rewatching the Expanse (highly recommend it for those who haven't seen it already!) and my vector space combat wargame itch started acting up again. I was going to post a new thread until I vaguely remembered asking the same thing years ago so here I am necro'ing an old thread to periodically ask the same thing.

Have any of the more recent space combat games like Star Wars Armada or Dropfleet Commander used vector based movement? Any other new major games or indie titles use it that have come out in the intervening years? Just curious yet again!

There was a BSG fighter game by Ares Games that used movement cards similar to Wings of War/Glory, but you could also spin on your base. Each turn, you could spin to face any direction while the ship would coast in a straight line, until you decided to move "normally" again.

Very new BSG style then! It was mentioned above IIRC and I did look at some youtube reviews but it was never available locally for me and it went belly up after a year or so (and during that time IIRC only had repaints of the same core fighters). Did it ever add ships to the rules and, if so, did they follow similar rules?

The game was discontinued before they were released. I believe the rules for capital ships are available somewhere for download. There's also this page with PDFs for DIY components:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/232583/unreleased-ships-pilots-civilians-capital-ships-an

Thanks! I took a peek at my hard drive and I didn't seem to have a copy of the base rules (although I did have a hard drive failure a few years back and may have lost it between seasonal backups). I took a look at the core rules and it seems to use an interesting x-wing style template movement system (albeit with a big cardboard hex with printed arcs instead of curved templates) so not vector based. Regardless, thanks again as I now at least have the core rules.

Yeah, not vector based, but instead of using the template, you can coast at the speed you were going and spin your ship to face in a different direction. I believe the rules for that were in the Advanced section of the Core rules.