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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm playing in a local tournament this weekend and was looking for pointers on beating DE. I have very little experience with them and had a few questions.


1. What should by priority targets be?

2. What are some of their better strategems to be aware of?

3. What are their primary synergy strategies? How do DE armies generally work?

4. What units can I expect to see in every DE tournament list
   
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Commenting to follow.

OP, you might get better information if you tell us (them) what points you're playing and what army you're using.

I would expect to see lots of flimsy vehicles that are going to try to stay out of your LoS.

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Made in us
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Drukhari vehicles are not flimsy on a per point basis.

I would prioritize their transports. If you can put the kabalites on foot, you can kill them before blasters become an issue.

To stand a good chance, you're going to have to read the Drukhari stratagems yourself and then ask which ones your opponent has access to. Not doing this will put you at a severe disadvantage, as they have a stratagem that cancels other stratagems.

The only units you can count on seeing every time are disintegrator ravagers. Some lists have all raiders for transports, others use all venoms. Some have jets, some don't. Some have talos and grotesques, some don't. All these units listed are busted as feth, though.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 17:06:02


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Background information,

This will be a 2000 tournament using the first three scenarios from Warzone Atomic Empire, missions are focused on killing the most units, with some objectives mixed in.

I'm playing a cadian brigade with 1 castellan knight



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari vehicles are not flimsy on a per point basis.

I would prioritize their transports. If you can put the kabalites on foot, you can kill them before blasters become an issue.

To stand a good chance, you're going to have to read the Drukhari stratagems yourself and then ask which ones your opponent has access to. Not doing this will put you at a severe disadvantage, as they have a stratagem that cancels other stratagems.

The only units you can count on seeing every time are disintegrator ravagers. Some lists have all raiders for transports, others use all venoms. Some have jets, some don't. Some have talos and grotesques, some don't. All these units listed are busted as feth, though.



By busted do you mean OP?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 17:14:28


 
   
Made in us
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Drukhari vehicles are more durable against the weaponry that works well against other vehicles, and less durable against the weaponry that works poorly against other vehicles. They all sport 5++ invuln saves, some (the venom and both flyers) have a -1 to hit and they have another 2CP -1 to hit stratagem. They're T5, which means S6 is identical to S9 against them. It is worth noting that all these (the invuln save and the - to hit) go away in melee, leaving a drukhari vehicle a T5 model with a 4+ armor save.

Because this busts up the plasma/lascannon meta that was previously in place to target the 'standard' T7 3+ vehicle common in other armies, most drukhari lists feature a lot of these models.

They're commonly armed with either their own version of the anti-T7 3+ gun (the dark lance) or with Disintegrators, which is a S5 AP-3 D2 gun that fires 3 shots - armies with 2 wound models suffer heavily when these guns are spammed.

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines, many people in metas where Drukhari are known to be common take weapons that gain bonuses to hit vs Fly, like Icarus Arrays, Hydras and Stalkers. High rate of fire S6/S7 weaponry like Kastelan Robots, assault cannons and some autohit weapons like Hellhounds can be good at clearing them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternative tactical take, I suppose:

Give up now, they're impossibly broken, never attend a tournament again, burn your models.

/s

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 17:17:32


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Yes, busted = OP. The whole codex is really OP and needs massive nerfs.

You can beat them, but it's uphill the whole way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 17:18:22


 
   
Made in us
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Drukhari are an army where you need to devastate their vehicles early, or they will wipe the floor with you. Assault cannons and autocannons are their Kryptonite.
Forget about high AP weapons, ROF is the way to go vs them. Remember most of their means to keep you in melee only work against "Infantry" so transports of your own like razorbacks aren't too shabby. Expect to be rushed if they are running Wyches or Wracks/Grots/Talos.

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MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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 iGuy91 wrote:
Drukhari are an army where you need to devastate their vehicles early, or they will wipe the floor with you. Assault cannons and autocannons are their Kryptonite.
Forget about high AP weapons, ROF is the way to go vs them. Remember most of their means to keep you in melee only work against "Infantry" so transports of your own like razorbacks aren't too shabby. Expect to be rushed if they are running Wyches or Wracks/Grots/Talos.


The problem is that this is getting into heavy list tailoring, which isn't viable. That's why Drukhari are so broken. My buddy brings 100 wounds of vehicles at 2K. How is anyone supposed to "devastate" that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 17:23:11


 
   
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Martel732 wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Drukhari are an army where you need to devastate their vehicles early, or they will wipe the floor with you. Assault cannons and autocannons are their Kryptonite.
Forget about high AP weapons, ROF is the way to go vs them. Remember most of their means to keep you in melee only work against "Infantry" so transports of your own like razorbacks aren't too shabby. Expect to be rushed if they are running Wyches or Wracks/Grots/Talos.


The problem is that this is getting into heavy list tailoring, which isn't viable. That's why Drukhari are so broken. My buddy brings 100 wounds of vehicles at 2K. How is anyone supposed to "devastate" that?


Just a general observation. Its good advice generally. If you have more autocannon or ML equivalents instead of lascannons, you'd fare better against them. Considering every time I've played them this edition they knew what I was bringing, and I had a vague idea of what they had, I've done fine. But Drukhari are incredibly underpriced for their durability and firepower in their vehicles, your friend is maximizing on that. But still, they aren't winning tournaments yet...so I'm not sure what other folks play vs them to win. I can only speak to it as Necrons or Space Marines.

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MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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They're getting damn close, and from what I saw, causing HUGE casualties in the process.
   
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Martel732 wrote:
They're getting damn close, and from what I saw, causing HUGE casualties in the process.


I believe you, trust me. They seem like a faction where going first is going to be a big benefit.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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Drukhari are definitely winning tournaments, lol.
   
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Agreed. Also, I'd argue that autocannon-type weapons are NOT list tailoring, as they are optimal vs a LARGE number of lists. Assault cannons are a lot harder to field on efficient platforms. That's why I called it list tailoring. But seriously, make a list of targets with invuln saves now. I've stopped using lascannons because of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
meleti wrote:
Drukhari are definitely winning tournaments, lol.


I didn't want to say this without having the first hand knowledge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 17:36:17


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Agreed. Also, I'd argue that autocannon-type weapons are NOT list tailoring, as they are optimal vs a LARGE number of lists. Assault cannons are a lot harder to field on efficient platforms. That's why I called it list tailoring. But seriously, make a list of targets with invuln saves now. I've stopped using lascannons because of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
meleti wrote:
Drukhari are definitely winning tournaments, lol.


I didn't want to say this without having the first hand knowledge.


I'd argue that successfully list tailoring is the biggest thing that separates a mid-table competitive list with one that actually wins the event...because you rarely win the event or place very high without guessing what most people will be bringing.

If you bring what everyone else will be bringing, you end up in the middle of the pack. If you bring something that's theoretically solid in a pure "opponent roulette" environment where you might encounter an elite infantry army, a horde, a vehicle heavy army, etc...then you're going to end up having tough matchups against skew lists like the aforementioned 100 wounds of T5 5++ vehicles you just mentioned.

Drukhari are not alone in their heavy use of units with invulns 1 worse than their armor saves and Fly. Taking a unit like the anti-flyer marine plane with the missiles and twin autocannon would be a risky list-tailoring move if you were only going to see dividends against Drukhari. But that also works well against shining spears, Custode captains, Harlequins, Taloi in Coven Drukhari lists, Nid Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes of Tzeentch....

Drukhari and Harlequins probably won't be huge fans of the addition of Armiger Helverins to the current competitive meta. A vehicle with relatively solid defenses against both Disintegrators and Dark Lances thanks to its invuln (13 dissies or 12 DLs to take one down) with 4D3 S7 AP-1 D3 shots on two guns so you can shoot at two venoms with each one. And if you do roll a 6+++ on one of those wounds to survive with Black Heart, it's got a stubber to strip the last wound off. And if you do get a venom into combat with one, it just starts kicking the crap out of you with S6 feet and 3+WS.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.
   
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OP, what's your 2k list look like?

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mass small fire and flamers will do great. Close combat does well against kabalites and the vehicles, but Grotesques and Talos/Cronos are not to be messed with in close combat at all. If you have anti-vehicle weaponry, fire them at the monsters, not the vehicles.

Also if there is a haemonculus on foot, watchout for the vexator mask relic. Once per fight phase they can choose a unit to fight last. can really mess up your day if you were counting on swinging first in combat. But with cadians, you probably werent thinking about too much close combat.

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Martel732 wrote:
That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.


So when this guy says he's going to a competitive event with lots of drukhari and you tell him not to bring strong units that work well in the meta against drukhari because that's list tailoring, what is that?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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the_scotsman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.


So when this guy says he's going to a competitive event with lots of drukhari and you tell him not to bring strong units that work well in the meta against drukhari because that's list tailoring, what is that?


Keep in mind, all of Martel's contributions to this thread amount to "DE are OP! GAHHH!"

Not exactly on-point nor helpful.
   
Made in no
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Bergen

It depends a bit on what sort of dark eldar you are facing. Let us asume it is one og the 95% mobile boats long range weapons.

First of, dark lances are everywhere.

Two, dark eldar have a lot of poison. Do some math hammer so you know how many shots it takes to kill one of your models. 40 shots might not be as bad as it sounds.

Three, when your toys are dead do not despair. Regular weapons are much better vs them then other armies.

   
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Ok, actually trying to be helpful now.

1. Consider taking Grenade Launchers on all your infantry squads. They are cheap, S6 vs T5 vehicles, and do d3 damage. Oh, and they can also double as solid dakka vs t3 squads (of which there will be many).

2. You're taking a Brigade, so that probably means Scout Sentinels or Hellhounds. Give the Scout Sentinels some Heavy Flamers, they're excellent weapons against Eldar of all varieties.

3. I would definitely consider some Armigers to fill out a Super-Heavy detachment with your Castellan. I'm not really sure if Warglaives or Helverins are better here, but both seem to have very strong merits. Helverins have outstanding guns for taking on Drukhari, while Warglaives provide a mobile assault component your army is pretty much guaranteed to lack. This also gets your Castellan a household tradition, which is nice.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Yes, busted = OP. The whole codex is really OP and needs massive nerfs.

You can beat them, but it's uphill the whole way.

that nerf will come in next faqs/Ca dont worry, Gw showed the will to keep things under control, better for Drukari enjoy actual codex until they can cause soon it will be revised.

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the_scotsman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.


So when this guy says he's going to a competitive event with lots of drukhari and you tell him not to bring strong units that work well in the meta against drukhari because that's list tailoring, what is that?


Reread my posts.
   
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For clarification, my meta isn't necessarily flooded with DE, but I know there are some and it's the army I have the least experience with. Generally speaking I'm trying to build a good TAC list
   
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As a dark eldar player I definitely know they are beatable, don't let the fact that they are doing well at the moment blind you to their huge weaknesses:

Their infantry will die very quickly if it is caught on foot (they are guardsmen with a 6+ fnp)
Their vehicles are also susceptible to lighter weaponry than most vehicles (you can do a surprising number of wounds with bolters, even lasguns wound them on 5+)
Against things that are t8 it becomes quite hard for de weapons to kill you quickly unless they dump a lot of their anti vehicle weapons into them, and at that point most of their anti tank is in the ravagers and warrior units.

My advice would be to focus down the raiders if you take a very infantry heavy list (you don't care that much about dark lances killing guardsmen, but you do care about the splinter weapons). If you take lots of vehicles then attempt to deploy them in such a way that the blasters will not be in range of them (they have an 18" range and the raiders move 14" so its unlikely but you might be able to with some careful measuring). Finally, remember that the warriors only rapid fire within 12" so if you can keep them outside that for at least a turn you really tone down the offensive capabilities of the army. DE rely on doing a lot of damage rapidly because they can't outlast anyone, they are just too fragile for that. If you can kill ravagers thats also a big help depending on what your list is. Venoms pose the biggest issue for guard since they are -1 to hit but they also only carry 5 infantry models so usually venom heavy armies dont have very many models overall (think like 35 warriors total).

Another thing to look out for is reaver jetbikes in cult of the red grief, they can move 18", advance 8" then charge with a reroll. So make sure you screen your vehicles well, otherwise they will get locked immediately.
   
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Quixeemoto wrote:
As a dark eldar player I definitely know they are beatable, don't let the fact that they are doing well at the moment blind you to their huge weaknesses:

Their infantry will die very quickly if it is caught on foot (they are guardsmen with a 6+ fnp)
Their vehicles are also susceptible to lighter weaponry than most vehicles (you can do a surprising number of wounds with bolters, even lasguns wound them on 5+)
Against things that are t8 it becomes quite hard for de weapons to kill you quickly unless they dump a lot of their anti vehicle weapons into them, and at that point most of their anti tank is in the ravagers and warrior units.

My advice would be to focus down the raiders if you take a very infantry heavy list (you don't care that much about dark lances killing guardsmen, but you do care about the splinter weapons). If you take lots of vehicles then attempt to deploy them in such a way that the blasters will not be in range of them (they have an 18" range and the raiders move 14" so its unlikely but you might be able to with some careful measuring). Finally, remember that the warriors only rapid fire within 12" so if you can keep them outside that for at least a turn you really tone down the offensive capabilities of the army. DE rely on doing a lot of damage rapidly because they can't outlast anyone, they are just too fragile for that. If you can kill ravagers thats also a big help depending on what your list is. Venoms pose the biggest issue for guard since they are -1 to hit but they also only carry 5 infantry models so usually venom heavy armies dont have very many models overall (think like 35 warriors total).

Another thing to look out for is reaver jetbikes in cult of the red grief, they can move 18", advance 8" then charge with a reroll. So make sure you screen your vehicles well, otherwise they will get locked immediately.


This is good advice. ^^

Blast the Ravagers first (esp disintegrator ones vs anything with 2 wounds) or otherwise raiders/venoms full of CC monsters. Make sure that you screen your dudes well. It helps.

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MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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NC, USA

Drukhari player checking in.

There are a couple of current "meta" builds for Drukhari.

1. Venom Spam, often w/ Craftworld Psykers
2. Grotesque/Talos blobs

Both of these probably include a Black Heart spearhead with 3 Ravagers.

Funnily enough, the way you beat both these lists is the same, so that's good.

1. Stop building around a stratagem to win you turns/games. RIP Necrons =( Agents of Vect is shifting the meta away from what it was for a long time(at least among gatekeeper/netlists), which is a stratagem-measuring contest.

2. Leave the Lascannons at home and take more mid-strength, low-AP shooting. Hell even massed bolters are probably better bang for your buck than Lascannons.

3. Don't be afraid to ignore footslogging Kabalites once you pop their transports. The troops die to a stiff breeze, but you're probably better off using your bolters on the other Venoms. Once you take away the mobility, Drukhari are up gak creek without a paddle.

4. Bait the Drukhari player into using his own stratagems. Example? Make sure your heavy shooters can hit at least 2 super important targets, then hit one with something that looks scary to pull out Lightning-Fast Reflexes, then shoot the other thing with the rest of it.

Past that, any more advice would be army-specific, so if OP (or anyone else) wants army specific-advice, just let me know what factions you run and I'll help out as best I can.
   
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As another few people have said, I would definitely try to fill out the castellans detachment into a full Lance with 2 armigers. It now gives CP, and if you are that worried about drukhari then 8d3 S7 ap-1 dmgd3 shots will bring the pain to their transports.

The thin with drukhari is that they are very very delicate, but bring the hurt. Try and keep a track of the enemy units and what your opponent is intending to do with them, then try to stop it.

 insaniak wrote:

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Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt. Even the kabalites, because 6 pt models are REALLY good.

But helverins do hit them where it hurts. Mid Str, 3 dam, huge range and only -1 AP.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/22 19:19:30


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.


You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.


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