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Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






I was thinking that you could give them a re-roll on the basis that the their gunner and loaders are the best of the best lol Its contrived but I can't think of a way of making them good but not OP for the cost.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Flat damage value and ability to pick out characters would go a long way. Also giving them an ability to 'hunker down' and act as an ambusher rather than a line tank would be a good add.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Flat 3 damage and re-roll hits against Vehicles and Monsters
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 BaconCatBug wrote:
Flat 3 damage and re-roll hits against Vehicles and Monsters


Flat 3 damage would make them worse, the D6 damage is the only reason you'd take them, the other variants would out perform them, most are d3 damage but they have multiple shots.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Flat 6 damage is more like it for a single shot weapon.
   
Made in ca
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Canada,eh

They should be:
- Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures.
- 3+D3 Damage.




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1000pt Skitari Legion 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Gibblets wrote:
They should be:
- Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures.
- 3+D3 Damage.


That's more like it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Gibblets wrote:
They should be:
- Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures.
- 3+D3 Damage.


That's more like it.

That is still not quite good enough, math vs T8 3+ (averages):

Battlecannon: (7/2) shots -> (7/4) hits -> (7/8) wounds -> (7/12) failed armor saves -> (21/18) damage
Vanquisher Cannon (new): 1 shots -> (1/2) hits -> (1/3) wounds -> (5/18) failed armor saves -> (25/18) damage

That is 2/9 of a damage difference, for a cannon that costs more points and has far less use against anything that isn't a monsterous creature or vehicle. People would still auto-take the battle cannon. The fact is the thing that hurts the vanquisher cannon the most is the ONE shot, it is absolutely painful and really hurts its numbers. If we absolutely have to keep the number of shots at one, then this would be a better profile:

-Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures
-3d3 Damage

This would make the Vanquisher Cannon roughly 50% more efficient on average than the battle cannon at damaging vehicles and monstrous creatures, whilst still keeping it useless vs practically everything else as it should be, which I think is a pretty good tradeoff. I'd also drop its points cost down to the same as the battle cannon (-3 points). Even then it STILL may need more buffs after some testing, but I think that is a good starting point. There is an issue with the large disparity in outcomes due to small sample size. More than half of the time you are doing absolutely no damage at all with the vanquisher cannon because of the one shot, and it only averages out because when it does hit it hits hard, whereas you are almost always doing some damage with the Battle Cannon and the expected outcomes are weighted more toward the average.

A far better solution would be to give it 1d3 shots, it makes the math way better and you don't have to overcompensate and give it a crapton of damage to skew the average higher and make the numbers line up.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/06/22 13:38:50


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Yeah. The way 8th ed works more shots is often more than compensating for worse S/AP/damage. Then when you factor in that more shots makes you generally more flexible the less flexible weapon needs to be REALLY good.

How much you want to game things and how much you want to make it sense? Reroll to hit vs vehicles/monsters would make it pretty darn awesome for the role especially with buffed damage but not sure how much sense that really makes. That weapon isn't likely any more accurate against those so reroll to wound makes more sense but is less of a help in area it needs less of a help.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






w1zard wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Gibblets wrote:
They should be:
- Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures.
- 3+D3 Damage.


That's more like it.

That is still not quite good enough, math vs T8 3+ (averages):

Battlecannon: (7/2) shots -> (7/4) hits -> (7/8) wounds -> (7/12) failed armor saves -> (21/18) damage
Vanquisher Cannon (new): 1 shots -> (1/2) hits -> (1/3) wounds -> (5/18) failed armor saves -> (25/18) damage

That is 2/9 of a damage difference, for a cannon that costs more points and has far less use against anything that isn't a monsterous creature or vehicle. People would still auto-take the battle cannon. The fact is the thing that hurts the vanquisher cannon the most is the ONE shot, it is absolutely painful and really hurts its numbers. If we absolutely have to keep the number of shots at one, then this would be a better profile:

-Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures
-3d3 Damage

This would make the Vanquisher Cannon roughly 50% more efficient on average than the battle cannon at damaging vehicles and monstrous creatures, whilst still keeping it useless vs practically everything else as it should be, which I think is a pretty good tradeoff. I'd also drop its points cost down to the same as the battle cannon (-3 points). Even then it STILL may need more buffs after some testing, but I think that is a good starting point. There is an issue with the large disparity in outcomes due to small sample size. More than half of the time you are doing absolutely no damage at all with the vanquisher cannon because of the one shot, and it only averages out because when it does hit it hits hard, whereas you are almost always doing some damage with the Battle Cannon and the expected outcomes are weighted more toward the average.

A far better solution would be to give it 1d3 shots, it makes the math way better and you don't have to overcompensate and give it a crapton of damage to skew the average higher and make the numbers line up.


I could live with that but I think 2 shots is more realistic.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Vut thats really 4 shots actually as Astra Militarum tanks get to double shoot for free anyways without BS penalty.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Ice_can wrote:
Vut thats really 4 shots actually as Astra Militarum tanks get to double shoot for free anyways without BS penalty.


Not for free you need to take a Co-axial.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Um all russ have this double shoot if move max half. No coax required

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






tneva82 wrote:
Um all russ have this double shoot if move max half. No coax required


How is no penalty to BS an extra shot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ValentineGames wrote:
I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun


I collect DKK so I forget Astra don't get that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 15:22:30


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




AP-5 + rerolling failed wounds against monsters and vehicles. You could always give it a static 4 or 5 damage but that could be considered over the top

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ValentineGames wrote:
I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun


I collect DKK so I forget Astra don't get that.

I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






ValentineGames wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ValentineGames wrote:
I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun


I collect DKK so I forget Astra don't get that.

I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus


But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.
   
Made in gb
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.

OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Grinding Advance has to be taken into account or rebalancing in light of the changes your suggesting as 4 BS 3+ S9 AP-3 5 damage is is dishing out 7-8 wounds per turn against T8 or less 3+ or worse save units so most vehicals. You still have the hull and any sponsons etc on top.

Add in reroll's orders etc and your going to be removing predator's dreadnaughts and LR's with ease. You've walked into way to good of a return on investment at a 100% points return in a single turn.

A quad las predator does 6 wounds for the same points at half the range and no ability to move without penalty

A Dark Lance ravager vrs T7 3+ 5 wounds T8 3+ 3.5 wounds.

You can maybe justify one change but both together is too good by the maths
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Bobug wrote:
The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.

OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion


Is that codex rules, because I collect DKK, so I haven't bothered to buy the codex?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Bobug wrote:
The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.

OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion


Is that codex rules, because I collect DKK, so I haven't bothered to buy the codex?


You need to update yourself as there is CA2017, FAQ's,Errata etc in addition to the codex that all changed rules.

But it was one of the bigger changes from index to codex.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Ice_can wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Bobug wrote:
The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.

OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion


Is that codex rules, because I collect DKK, so I haven't bothered to buy the codex?


You need to update yourself as there is CA2017, FAQ's,Errata etc in addition to the codex that all changed rules.

But it was one of the bigger changes from index to codex.


Groovy. I Missed that one. Probably too busy fapping over the fact we get shadowswords.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/22 17:39:23


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The joys of a living ruleset you need to make sure everyones plaing the same version of 8th edition 8.1-8.who knows.
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

Should get back their HE round as well.
Stupid now only firing AT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ValentineGames wrote:
I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun


I collect DKK so I forget Astra don't get that.

I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus


But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.

Correct...which is not how it works

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 19:53:58


 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






ValentineGames wrote:
Should get back their HE round as well.
Stupid now only firing AT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ValentineGames wrote:
I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun


I collect DKK so I forget Astra don't get that.

I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus


But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.

Correct...which is not how it works


It does for conquerors and vanquishers.
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
Should get back their HE round as well.
Stupid now only firing AT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ValentineGames wrote:
I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun


I collect DKK so I forget Astra don't get that.

I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus


But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.

Correct...which is not how it works


It does for conquerors and vanquishers.

No I mean that's not what co-axial machine guns are for
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I did my math on the assumption of firing one shot for both the battle cannon and the vanquisher cannon. Firing two shots for both changes nothing in the comparison against each other because you are just multiplying both results by two. It only changes it when you are comparing it against other things. I still stand by my assessment.

-Re-rolls wounds against Monsterous Creatures + Vehicles
-3d3 damage

This is the level required to see vanquishers even make sense from a mathematical standpoint and even then it may still need more buffs on top of this to get people to take them in any kind of numbers. The ONE SHOT hurts!

As I said I would much rather see them going to 1d3 shots, it would make them so much easier to balance.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




6 flat damage is also very attractive vs shenanigans like serpent shields.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




w1zard wrote:
I did my math on the assumption of firing one shot for both the battle cannon and the vanquisher cannon. Firing two shots for both changes nothing in the comparison against each other because you are just multiplying both results by two. It only changes it when you are comparing it against other things. I still stand by my assessment.

-Re-rolls wounds against Monsterous Creatures + Vehicles
-3d3 damage

This is the level required to see vanquishers even make sense from a mathematical standpoint and even then it may still need more buffs on top of this to get people to take them in any kind of numbers. The ONE SHOT hurts!

As I said I would much rather see them going to 1d3 shots, it would make them so much easier to balance.


No you do need to take into acount the double shooting as it is fundamental to finding a balanced solution not just building the next OP unit.

D3 avarages 2 shots then shooting twice so 4 shots go BS 4 with rerolls 3 hits 2 wounds no saves 12 wounds and one dead predator or leman russ so a 100% return in points cost from a single round of shooting thats filthy OP.
It does double the damage the damage of quad lascannon predator for less points.
   
 
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