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Hey guys and gals, I've been arguing on these threads https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/8tl9kh/xpost_from_rwarhammer40k_mind_control_ruling/ & https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/8tkpf3/mind_control_ruling/ on this argument about Mind Control, and I'm looking for other opinions:

First some background

So the original question was whether a unit that had been mind controlled could shoot at a character even though they weren't the closest visible unit.

Quite a few posters agreed that you could target a character based on RAW, and that it was an attack based on the shooting phase (the psychic power wording lacks "As if it were your shooting phase..."). However, I wasn't arguing against it, in fact, I was arguing for it, albeit in a different way. I took that line of reasoning, and following RAW, took it to it's fullest I could.

I cite in the rulebook that the restrictions that govern shooting attacks (los and range) only affect shooting attacks done in the shooting phase, and so since this is not done in the shooting phase, those restrictions don't apply anymore. Meaning, a MC'd unit can shoot whatever it wants, however it wants. This completely agrees with the presupposition that you can target characters with an MC'd unit even though they are not the closest.

The main argument was that the shooting steps and the character rule are independent of one another. It doesn't address the fact that the restrictions of LOS and Range are only for shooting attacks done in the shooting phase. Not only because it's listed under SHOOTING PHASE in the rulebook, but because the steps to which they are referenced from, say so.

Rules for reference:

Mind Control:

If manifested, pick an enemy model within 12" of the psyker and roll3D6. If the score is less than that model's Leadership nothing happens, but if it greater, that model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it, as if it were part of your army. Models cannot attack themselves, but they can attack other members of their unit.

SHOOTING PHASE:

1. In your Shooting phase, you can shoot with a model armed with ranged weapons. First you must pick one of your units to shoot with....

2. Having chosen a shooting unit,you must pick the target unit or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.

Mind you, there is another line of reasoning I could've gone down. It was that the power doesn't work at all, since it doesn't have the additional wording of "As if it were your shooting phase..." as all the rules that govern shooting only exist within the parameters of a shooting phase. There are exceptions, but they all have the wording of "As if it were your shooting phase," essentially meaning that they follow all the rules that govern shooting.

My point: I'm of the personal opinion that you have to follow all the rules for shooting when making a shooting attack from a MC'd unit. But I went about it by making them break the original supposition for me, by taking the argument that you can target characters and taking it all the way to the absurdity of it's eventuality. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but the only way I see it's possible is if you can cite where the restrictions for LOS and Range for shooting attacks exist outside the shooting phase, and where the shooting phase is referenced back to ( IE As if it were your shooting phase or overwatch)

Reference the Tau EWO ruling for reference. "As if" means you follow the restrictions of the shooting phase for those abilities.

We haven't had a straight answer from GW of how to treat phases "as if", just a mass of patchy Special Snowflake FAQs that are sometimes contradictory.

Fragile wrote:
Reference the Tau EWO ruling for reference. "As if" means you follow the restrictions of the shooting phase for those abilities.

I’d agree.

This is directly from the GW "Stepping into a new edition" FAQ:

Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?

A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase).

The "Stepping into a new edition" clearly states that an enemy character can be targeted without restriction in the Psychic phase, and then further goes to mention that you may make shooting attacks at enemy characters which occur outside the Shooting phase.

 Nighttail wrote:
This is directly from the GW "Stepping into a new edition" FAQ:

Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?

A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase).

The "Stepping into a new edition" clearly states that an enemy character can be targeted without restriction in the Psychic phase, and then further goes to mention that you may make shooting attacks at enemy characters which occur outside the Shooting phase.

Sadly GW screwed it up by stating "i.e.", rather than "e.g.", thus ONLY shooting characters by Overwatch are affected by this FAQ and nothing else.

This does make a difference, as proven by the change from i.e. to e.g. from Dark Eldar Index to Codex.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sadly GW screwed it up by stating "i.e.", rather than "e.g.", thus ONLY shooting characters by Overwatch are affected by this FAQ and nothing else..

That doesn't invalidate the "You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase[...]" portion of the FAQ though.

 Nighttail wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sadly GW screwed it up by stating "i.e.", rather than "e.g.", thus ONLY shooting characters by Overwatch are affected by this FAQ and nothing else..

That doesn't invalidate the "You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase[...]" portion of the FAQ though.

That isn't referring to shooting, otherwise they wouldn't need the second line about shooting.

 Nighttail wrote:
This is directly from the GW "Stepping into a new edition" FAQ:

Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?

A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase).

The "Stepping into a new edition" clearly states that an enemy character can be targeted without restriction in the Psychic phase, and then further goes to mention that you may make shooting attacks at enemy characters which occur outside the Shooting phase.

That is true, but they have since FAQ'd the "as if" to follow all the shooting phase rules.

Some rules – such as Early Warning Override in Codex: T’au Empire, the Ever Vigilant Stratagem in Codex: Adeptus Custodes, and the Auspex Scan Stratagem in Codex: Space Marines – allow units to shoot at enemy units that have just arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements, as if it were the Shooting phase. Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character, can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest enemy unit? A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that allows them to target a Character even if it is not the closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the Shooting phase still apply

Clearly this Faq breaks that battle primer.

But at the same time they have FAQed that "as if it were the movement phase" doesn't follow all the movement phase rules.

For example ?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Nighttail wrote:
This is directly from the GW "Stepping into a new edition" FAQ:

Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?

A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase).

The "Stepping into a new edition" clearly states that an enemy character can be targeted without restriction in the Psychic phase, and then further goes to mention that you may make shooting attacks at enemy characters which occur outside the Shooting phase.

Sadly GW screwed it up by stating "i.e.", rather than "e.g.", thus ONLY shooting characters by Overwatch are affected by this FAQ and nothing else.

This does make a difference, as proven by the change from i.e. to e.g. from Dark Eldar Index to Codex.

Please see the YMDC Tenet about “GW English”. Please. You keep trying to use this I.E. not E.G. thing as some cast-iron proof when everyone understands perfectly what they meant.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Nighttail wrote:
This is directly from the GW "Stepping into a new edition" FAQ:

Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?

A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase).

The "Stepping into a new edition" clearly states that an enemy character can be targeted without restriction in the Psychic phase, and then further goes to mention that you may make shooting attacks at enemy characters which occur outside the Shooting phase.

Sadly GW screwed it up by stating "i.e.", rather than "e.g.", thus ONLY shooting characters by Overwatch are affected by this FAQ and nothing else.

This does make a difference, as proven by the change from i.e. to e.g. from Dark Eldar Index to Codex.

Please see the YMDC Tenet about “GW English”. Please. You keep trying to use this I.E. not E.G. thing as some cast-iron proof when everyone understands perfectly what they meant.

Yes. On this subject, the first thing dictionary.com has to say on it is:

"What’s the difference between i.e. and e.g.?

They may be small, but their power to befuddle writers and speakers of the English language is mighty."


Given what else we've seen in the rules about the use of their wording, GW would look to be in the category of the "befuddled" on this.

 doctortom wrote:
Yes. On this subject, the first thing dictionary.com has to say on it is:

"What’s the difference between i.e. and e.g.?

They may be small, but their power to befuddle writers and speakers of the English language is mighty."


Given what else we've seen in the rules about the use of their wording, GW would look to be in the category of the "befuddled" on this.

Exactly. If we are permitted to ignore this rule of English, then I can also ignore the meaning of the word "roll" and just place all my dice as 6's on the table.

Or is it against the Tenets to say that "roll" means "to randomly determine a value based on a physical movement that is not possible for a human to accurately predict"?

Mind Control doesn't say anything about the shooting phase though. It just says that unit A can shoot unit B. B is a target selected by the power. There's no restriction on whether B is a character, is the closest or has line of sight.

So the question isn't whether or not the character B can be selected as a target, cause it can. The question is whether or not unit A is allowed to go thru with a shooting attack against B if B doesn't fit the usual restrictions for targeting when making a shooting attack.

 Zimko wrote:
Mind Control doesn't say anything about the shooting phase though. It just says that unit A can shoot unit B. B is a target selected by the power. There's no restriction on whether B is a character, is the closest or has line of sight.

So the question isn't whether or not the character B can be selected as a target, cause it can. The question is whether or not unit A is allowed to go thru with a shooting attack against B if B doesn't fit the usual restrictions for targeting when making a shooting attack.

Yes - this is one way of looking at the point I was trying to make

Did read the psychic power in question, and indeed there's no mention of "as if it were the Shooting phase". It just says the model may shoot at another enemy model, and as per the previous FAQ, an enemy character may be targeted without restriction in the Psychic phase. At this point there's also no conflict with the T'au FAQ, and therefore "stepping into a new edition" provides a pretty clear answer to this rules dilemma.

 Zimko wrote:
Mind Control doesn't say anything about the shooting phase though. It just says that unit A can shoot unit B. B is a target selected by the power. There's no restriction on whether B is a character, is the closest or has line of sight.

So the question isn't whether or not the character B can be selected as a target, cause it can. The question is whether or not unit A is allowed to go thru with a shooting attack against B if B doesn't fit the usual restrictions for targeting when making a shooting attack.

By that logic the unit does not even need to be in range or LoS.

if you ignore the restriction on shooting characters then you should be able to ignore the other restrictions about range and LoS.

Hello all just a quick question...a mind controlled valiant knight gets to shoot all his weapons? or only 1 attack?

He can shoot all his weapons.