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So the fascists in Italy (who are in Government now, well done Italy.) want to conduct a "census" of all the Roma people in Italy and expel them from the country.

Given I have not been shy in criticising the US over the child kidnapping it's government is doing, I think it's pretty fair to say "WTF, Italy!"

The Roma were subject to genocide by the Nazis. I wonder if there would be more media coverage if Salvini was asking for a census and expulsion of Jewish people? To me, the lack of international condemnation and attention to this is extremely worrying. I know it is not policy yet, but as an EU citizen I am deeply concerned about this proposal in Italy.

How should the EU respond? How do Italians on Dakka feel about it?

 Da Boss wrote:
So the fascists in Italy (who are in Government now, well done Italy.) want to conduct a "census" of all the Roma people in Italy and expel them from the country.

Given I have not been shy in criticising the US over the child kidnapping it's government is doing, I think it's pretty fair to say "WTF, Italy!"

It's not just making a census, it's the prime minister himself saying "unfortunately we'll have to keep the Italian-born ones".

If the Germans did something like this the world would absolutely explode. I do not understand how the Italians are getting off so lightly, given their fascist history.

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Germans did something like this the world would absolutely explode. I do not understand how the Italians are getting off so lightly, given their fascist history.

Its because Italy surrendered in 43. Italy like Austria profits from a partial perception that they were victims of Germany too.

As for the case in itself, Salvini is a waste of human skin. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot of popular pushback against it either inside or outside. I think its on seriously shaky ground and how will you deport people who are EU(or more likely Italian) citizens I presume, unless they have no paperwork in which case where would you even send them too. Seems like he's making a show for his supporters and nothing more. Got to appreciate the crickets from 5 star though, really lets you know what kind of party it really is.

Yes, absolutely. 5 Star have been shown as hollow figures of zero integrity. It is so disappointing.

I'm quite angry at Italy though. This sort of politics should not happen in the European Union.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Germans did something like this the world would absolutely explode. I do not understand how the Italians are getting off so lightly, given their fascist history.

Its because Italy surrendered in 43. Italy like Austria profits from a partial perception that they were victims of Germany too.

As for the case in itself, Salvini is a waste of human skin. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot of popular pushback against it either inside or outside. I think its on seriously shaky ground and how will you deport people who are EU(or more likely Italian) citizens I presume, unless they have no paperwork in which case where would you even send them too. Seems like he's making a show for his supporters and nothing more. Got to appreciate the crickets from 5 star though, really lets you know what kind of party it really is.

You can deport a EU citizen to his home country if they don't have the means to sustain themselves and/or is a draw on the welfare system.

Belgium does it all the time.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/30/belgium-sends-burden-eu-citizens-letters-asking-them-to-leave-the-country

 Da Boss wrote:
Yes, absolutely. 5 Star have been shown as hollow figures of zero integrity. It is so disappointing.

I'm quite angry at Italy though. This sort of politics should not happen in the European Union.

Well it was kind of expected, a movement founded by a guy who wanted to have no responsibility in what actually went on in the movement and some shockingly amateurish displays as a result. I would be surprised if most of them aren't just in it for themselves.

As for anger, its been happening in Europe for the last decade. Quite a few parties have been sniffing around this type of politics. Sadly there isn't a lot you can do if they don't openly cross the line and it will only make them stronger domestically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Germans did something like this the world would absolutely explode. I do not understand how the Italians are getting off so lightly, given their fascist history.

Its because Italy surrendered in 43. Italy like Austria profits from a partial perception that they were victims of Germany too.

As for the case in itself, Salvini is a waste of human skin. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot of popular pushback against it either inside or outside. I think its on seriously shaky ground and how will you deport people who are EU(or more likely Italian) citizens I presume, unless they have no paperwork in which case where would you even send them too. Seems like he's making a show for his supporters and nothing more. Got to appreciate the crickets from 5 star though, really lets you know what kind of party it really is.

You can deport a EU citizen to his home country if they don't have the means to sustain themselves and/or is a draw on the welfare system.

Belgium does it all the time.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/30/belgium-sends-burden-eu-citizens-letters-asking-them-to-leave-the-country

But that is a very selective and relatively small process. It happens in every country, not just Belgium. But this is within certain parameters, not based on deporting an ethnicity, there is no European standard for that. Its a difference of 2.000 versus about 90.000 in sheer numbers

As well as the fact that half of the Roma are Italian citizens who are going to be treated as third class citizens. The other half comes from Eastern Europe its believed, but if there is no paperwork you can't deport them. So the only precedent Italy will be able to set is large scale deportation of EU citizens based on ethnic profiling. That won't go over well in court I imagine.

I would imagine the ECJ and ECHR will have something to say about it, but I really think there should be more uproar and criticism of Italy. Look at what the Americans are copping for their policies (rightly, I believe), but with Italy it is like we just shrug our shoulders and say "Yeah, well, that's Italy for you". It is not good enough.

I think the problem is two fold, first there is the language barrier which makes it much harder for most people to follow compared to the US. Second, its much less visible, beyond said announcement little has seemingly been done so far. The EU is already in a row with Italy over the handling of ships picking up people in trouble, its sucking up a lot of the oxygen in the room (and probably a reason to not say much on the Roma census yet) versus an issue thay hasn't gotten very far. We went through this with France and Hungary before.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


As well as the fact that half of the Roma are Italian citizens who are going to be treated as third class citizens. The other half comes from Eastern Europe its believed, but if there is no paperwork you can't deport them. So the only precedent Italy will be able to set is large scale deportation of EU citizens based on ethnic profiling. That won't go over well in court I imagine.

Most if not all Roma from Romania and Bulgaria do have papers. You can't claim welfare if you don't have them so the problem of undocumented Roma became a non-issue once there was

They might not be willing to show it to an inquiring officer, but they do have them for sure.

Now, those from Serbia, FYROM, Albania, Bosnia, etc. are a different thing, but they're a small % of the whole thing (problem, using Salvini's parlance).

jouso wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


As well as the fact that half of the Roma are Italian citizens who are going to be treated as third class citizens. The other half comes from Eastern Europe its believed, but if there is no paperwork you can't deport them. So the only precedent Italy will be able to set is large scale deportation of EU citizens based on ethnic profiling. That won't go over well in court I imagine.

Most if not all Roma from Romania and Bulgaria do have papers. You can't claim welfare if you don't have them so the problem of undocumented Roma became a non-issue once there was

They might not be willing to show it to an inquiring officer, but they do have them for sure.

Now, those from Serbia, FYROM, Albania, Bosnia, etc. are a different thing, but they're a small % of the whole thing (problem, using Salvini's parlance).

True, I didn't mean to imply none of those from Eastern Europe had papers, but then it becomes a case of expelling EU citizens based on ethnic profiling. France did that under Sarkozy and (besides not really working) ended up widely condemned. France used a loophole that closed in 2014 though. Its hard to see how it will not obviously violate EU law this time around.

 Da Boss wrote:
So the fascists in Italy (who are in Government now, well done Italy.) want to conduct a "census" of all the Roma people in Italy and expel them from the country.

Given I have not been shy in criticising the US over the child kidnapping it's government is doing, I think it's pretty fair to say "WTF, Italy!"

The Roma were subject to genocide by the Nazis. I wonder if there would be more media coverage if Salvini was asking for a census and expulsion of Jewish people? To me, the lack of international condemnation and attention to this is extremely worrying. I know it is not policy yet, but as an EU citizen I am deeply concerned about this proposal in Italy.

How should the EU respond? How do Italians on Dakka feel about it?

Care to define fascist for me? I believe the Fascist Party is illegal there.

Also what are Roma? I thought they were talking about Romans.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
So the fascists in Italy (who are in Government now, well done Italy.) want to conduct a "census" of all the Roma people in Italy and expel them from the country.

Given I have not been shy in criticising the US over the child kidnapping it's government is doing, I think it's pretty fair to say "WTF, Italy!"

The Roma were subject to genocide by the Nazis. I wonder if there would be more media coverage if Salvini was asking for a census and expulsion of Jewish people? To me, the lack of international condemnation and attention to this is extremely worrying. I know it is not policy yet, but as an EU citizen I am deeply concerned about this proposal in Italy.

How should the EU respond? How do Italians on Dakka feel about it?

Care to define fascist for me? I believe the Fascist Party is illegal there.

Also what are Roma? I thought they were talking about Romans.

He is certainly fascist adjacent. Salvini is extremely xenophobic (going as far as criticizing the Pope when the Pope called for a dialogue with Muslims) and to an extent prejudiced even against people from southern Italy. He is very economically nationalistic and has praised Mussolini (for his "good work"). Now he wants to put the Roma on a government list and deport those except for when they have Italian passports, but they still get to be on the list. So yeah, pretty far right crossing over into fascism in certain aspects.

Roma are an ethnicity, not Romans. Roma perhaps better known as gypsie or something like that stretch?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Roma are an ethnicity, not Romans. Roma perhaps better known as gypsie or something like that stretch?

Roma are gypsies from Romania. Romanians can't stand being lumped in with them as they have a reputation for being a caste of thieves and aggressive beggars.
They moved across Europe due to the welfare states and common movement rules. Uneducated to the point that the women can't read or write, contributing to low employment.

They are highly visible as they often have a duskier skin than other Europeans (though they'd still be considered white) and dress in specific ways. Ireland would be better off without them, but they are not the biggest problem we have by far. Italy has 30 times as many though, so I can see how they'd want to deport so many.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Roma are an ethnicity, not Romans. Roma perhaps better known as gypsie or something like that stretch?

Roma are gypsies from Romania. Romanians can't stand being lumped in with them as they have a reputation for being a caste of thieves and aggressive beggars.
They moved across Europe due to the welfare states and common movement rules. Uneducated to the point that the women can't read or write, contributing to low employment.

They are highly visible as they often have a duskier skin than other Europeans (though they'd still be considered white) and dress in specific ways. Ireland would be better off without them, but they are not the biggest problem we have by far. Italy has 30 times as many though, so I can see how they'd want to deport so many.

No that's incorrect, Roma are Roma. In English the word Gypsie is often used, but its just the same meaning. Romania also has little to do with it, a large group lives in Romania, but it is not their country of origin so to speak, just where they entered Europe first in the middle of the Middle Ages. They have lived all over Europe since the Middle Ages.

So no, they didn't move "across Europe due to the welfare states". The majority has already lived in Western Europe before Romania entered the EU in 2007, unless you want to argue more than a million people suddenly up and left Romania without a peep in 2007. The issues they face are often the result of long term prejudice, while that doesn't excuse the actions of those that break the law, its hard to argue that having been treated like pariahs in Europe hasn't contributed significantly to their socioeconomic status. In many cases they don't even get government welfare unless they actually have the nationality in question, because you can't access the entire welfare system in another EU country like that.

To deport them is ridiculous, considering that the majority are citizens. I mean France deported 15.000 on a total of perhaps as many as a million Roma in France during 2009-2010 with most ending up back in France. Its a total non-solution to get credit from your base.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

He is certainly fascist adjacent. Salvini is extremely xenophobic (going as far as criticizing the Pope when the Pope called for a dialogue with Muslims) and to an extent prejudiced even against people from southern Italy. He is very economically nationalistic and has praised Mussolini (for his "good work"). Now he wants to put the Roma on a government list and deport those except for when they have Italian passports, but they still get to be on the list. So yeah, pretty far right crossing over into fascism in certain aspects.

Salvini's ideological trip has been quite eventful, though. He started as a far-left anti-globalisation agent within the then-secessionist Northern League, which was a big tent housing everything from his own Communist faction, to quasi-fascist far right), back then his rhetoric was against the backwards, foul-smelling Southerners, through his radio program which was more or less the official voice of the Lega.




"Neapolitans smell so bad even dogs run away"

Then he took over the party after Bossi funding scandal and started to be seen with the Casapound movement which is a through and though fascist moevement. Here's his leader saying "our leader is Salvini a few years back.




He found his way as a small player under the Berlusconi big tent, and tried to appear more palatabe. Asking Neapolitans for forgiveness and saying about his former ties to Casapound "there are some votes I don't want to take" but you know the drill.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
So the fascists in Italy (who are in Government now, well done Italy.) want to conduct a "census" of all the Roma people in Italy and expel them from the country.

Given I have not been shy in criticising the US over the child kidnapping it's government is doing, I think it's pretty fair to say "WTF, Italy!"

The Roma were subject to genocide by the Nazis. I wonder if there would be more media coverage if Salvini was asking for a census and expulsion of Jewish people? To me, the lack of international condemnation and attention to this is extremely worrying. I know it is not policy yet, but as an EU citizen I am deeply concerned about this proposal in Italy.

How should the EU respond? How do Italians on Dakka feel about it?

Care to define fascist for me? I believe the Fascist Party is illegal there.

Also what are Roma? I thought they were talking about Romans.

Defining fascism is difficult, but a man who promises to "cleanse italy of migrants town square by town square" and who wants to make a list of citizens for deporation based on their ethnicity, who supports authoritarian nationalism, certainly fits the bill. As others have said, the Roma Gypsies are a distinct ethnic group within Europe who have long been outsiders and suffered persecution, most notably genocide at the hands of the Nazis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Roma are an ethnicity, not Romans. Roma perhaps better known as gypsie or something like that stretch?

Roma are gypsies from Romania. Romanians can't stand being lumped in with them as they have a reputation for being a caste of thieves and aggressive beggars.
They moved across Europe due to the welfare states and common movement rules. Uneducated to the point that the women can't read or write, contributing to low employment.

They are highly visible as they often have a duskier skin than other Europeans (though they'd still be considered white) and dress in specific ways. Ireland would be better off without them, but they are not the biggest problem we have by far. Italy has 30 times as many though, so I can see how they'd want to deport so many.

People used to say the same things about Irish people in the past, you know.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
So the fascists in Italy (who are in Government now, well done Italy.) want to conduct a "census" of all the Roma people in Italy and expel them from the country.

Given I have not been shy in criticising the US over the child kidnapping it's government is doing, I think it's pretty fair to say "WTF, Italy!"

The Roma were subject to genocide by the Nazis. I wonder if there would be more media coverage if Salvini was asking for a census and expulsion of Jewish people? To me, the lack of international condemnation and attention to this is extremely worrying. I know it is not policy yet, but as an EU citizen I am deeply concerned about this proposal in Italy.

How should the EU respond? How do Italians on Dakka feel about it?

Care to define fascist for me? I believe the Fascist Party is illegal there.

Also what are Roma? I thought they were talking about Romans.

Defining fascism is difficult, but a man who promises to "cleanse italy of migrants town square by town square" and who wants to make a list of citizens for deporation based on their ethnicity, who supports authoritarian nationalism, certainly fits the bill. As others have said, the Roma Gypsies are a distinct ethnic group within Europe who have long been outsiders and suffered persecution, most notably genocide at the hands of the Nazis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Roma are an ethnicity, not Romans. Roma perhaps better known as gypsie or something like that stretch?

Roma are gypsies from Romania. Romanians can't stand being lumped in with them as they have a reputation for being a caste of thieves and aggressive beggars.
They moved across Europe due to the welfare states and common movement rules. Uneducated to the point that the women can't read or write, contributing to low employment.

They are highly visible as they often have a duskier skin than other Europeans (though they'd still be considered white) and dress in specific ways. Ireland would be better off without them, but they are not the biggest problem we have by far. Italy has 30 times as many though, so I can see how they'd want to deport so many.

People used to say the same things about Irish people in the past, you know.

Well the Soviets did the same with their pogroms (there's the rumir Stalin was poisoned to avoid another Jewish one). Is that it? As Italy invented the party I thought there was something more definitive here.

Salvini saying Mussolini did "good things" is about as definitive as you're going to get unless they start marching down the street in black shirts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

He is certainly fascist adjacent. Salvini is extremely xenophobic (going as far as criticizing the Pope when the Pope called for a dialogue with Muslims) and to an extent prejudiced even against people from southern Italy. He is very economically nationalistic and has praised Mussolini (for his "good work"). Now he wants to put the Roma on a government list and deport those except for when they have Italian passports, but they still get to be on the list. So yeah, pretty far right crossing over into fascism in certain aspects.

Salvini's ideological trip has been quite eventful, though. He started as a far-left anti-globalisation agent within the then-secessionist Northern League, which was a big tent housing everything from his own Communist faction, to quasi-fascist far right), back then his rhetoric was against the backwards, foul-smelling Southerners, through his radio program which was more or less the official voice of the Lega.




"Neapolitans smell so bad even dogs run away"

Then he took over the party after Bossi funding scandal and started to be seen with the Casapound movement which is a through and though fascist moevement. Here's his leader saying "our leader is Salvini a few years back.




He found his way as a small player under the Berlusconi big tent, and tried to appear more palatabe. Asking Neapolitans for forgiveness and saying about his former ties to Casapound "there are some votes I don't want to take" but you know the drill.

That's a great summary and shows quite clearly that Salvini, like many of his political breed, are just opportunists at heart dressing up in a certain ideology for personal gain.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Salvini saying Mussolini did "good things" is about as definitive as you're going to get unless they start marching down the street in black shirts.

Good point. Black shirts? Italians are always snazzy dressers, even their bad guys.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Salvini saying Mussolini did "good things" is about as definitive as you're going to get unless they start marching down the street in black shirts.

Good point. Black shirts? Italians are always snazzy dressers, even their bad guys.

Yeah brown was for the Germans, black was Italian. I mean if you get to pick why would someone ever pick brown

It was cheap. The brown was surplus government uniforms (mail I think).

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Salvini saying Mussolini did "good things" is about as definitive as you're going to get unless they start marching down the street in black shirts.

Good point. Black shirts? Italians are always snazzy dressers, even their bad guys.

Yeah brown was for the Germans, black was Italian. I mean if you get to pick why would someone ever pick brown

Black and red were already taken, while gray was already the colour of army uniforms, so with the primary evil colours unavailable they had to make do with the next best thing.

Salvini is a total fascist, yes. But that said, there are a lot of problems with the Roma people. There are praiseworthy exceptions, but many of them refuse to do any work as a matter of principle and instead travel around committing petty crimes. And it has been like that for the past 1000 years or so. In the countries with large Romani populations they really cause a lot of trouble. I can understand why you would want to deport the ones that come into the country illegally. And to be able to know which ones come into the country illegally and which ones are 'native', you'd first have to do a census. Doing a census is a good idea anyways, since the Roma normally refuse to register themselves with a government. That means there is little data available on their population which makes things really difficult for aid programs as well. Not to mention that it means that Roma who have the right to Italian (or another country's) citizenship, usually are unable to obtain it, which means they do not have access to legal work, healthcare, education and other essential things. Registering the Roman would be the first essential step in improving their lives and maybe finally integrating them in European society. Although unfortunately, I don't think a man like Salvini is interested in that. He just wants to use the census to kick as many out as possible.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Roma are an ethnicity, not Romans. Roma perhaps better known as gypsie or something like that stretch?

Roma are gypsies from Romania. Romanians can't stand being lumped in with them as they have a reputation for being a caste of thieves and aggressive beggars.
They moved across Europe due to the welfare states and common movement rules. Uneducated to the point that the women can't read or write, contributing to low employment.

They are highly visible as they often have a duskier skin than other Europeans (though they'd still be considered white) and dress in specific ways. Ireland would be better off without them, but they are not the biggest problem we have by far. Italy has 30 times as many though, so I can see how they'd want to deport so many.

Actually, the Roma come from India, not from Romania. The similarity in name is purely a coincidence. The name Romania is derived from Latin, from the name of the city of Rome (Roma), while the Roma are named after their word for men. Roma means 'men' in the Roma language. The Roma language is not related to Latin (only very, very distantly like all Indian and European languages). Romania does have a large population of Roma, but countries like Turkey, Spain, France, Bulgaria and many others also have very large populations. They are a traveling people who are normally not registered, so estimating their population is difficult.

 Frazzled wrote:
It was cheap. The brown was surplus government uniforms (mail I think).

True, it was army surplus, still though, brown...

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Salvini saying Mussolini did "good things" is about as definitive as you're going to get unless they start marching down the street in black shirts.

Good point. Black shirts? Italians are always snazzy dressers, even their bad guys.

Yeah brown was for the Germans, black was Italian. I mean if you get to pick why would someone ever pick brown

Black and red were already taken, while gray was already the colour of army uniforms, so with the primary evil colours unavailable they had to make do with the next best thing.

Salvini is a total fascist, yes. But that said, there are a lot of problems with the Roma people. There are praiseworthy exceptions, but many of them refuse to do any work as a matter of principle and instead travel around committing petty crimes. And it has been like that for the past 1000 years or so. In the countries with large Romani populations they really cause a lot of trouble. I can understand why you would want to deport the ones that come into the country illegally. And to be able to know which ones come into the country illegally and which ones are 'native', you'd first have to do a census. Doing a census is a good idea anyways, since the Roma normally refuse to register themselves with a government. That means there is little data available on their population which makes things really difficult for aid programs as well. Not to mention that it means that Roma who have the right to Italian (or another country's) citizenship, usually are unable to obtain it, which means they do not have access to legal work, healthcare, education and other essential things. Registering the Roman would be the first essential step in improving their lives and maybe finally integrating them in European society. Although unfortunately, I don't think a man like Salvini is interested in that. He just wants to use the census to kick as many out as possible.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Roma are an ethnicity, not Romans. Roma perhaps better known as gypsie or something like that stretch?

Roma are gypsies from Romania. Romanians can't stand being lumped in with them as they have a reputation for being a caste of thieves and aggressive beggars.
They moved across Europe due to the welfare states and common movement rules. Uneducated to the point that the women can't read or write, contributing to low employment.

They are highly visible as they often have a duskier skin than other Europeans (though they'd still be considered white) and dress in specific ways. Ireland would be better off without them, but they are not the biggest problem we have by far. Italy has 30 times as many though, so I can see how they'd want to deport so many.

Actually, the Roma come from India, not from Romania. The similarity in name is purely a coincidence. The name Romania is derived from Latin, from the name of the city of Rome (Roma), while the Roma are named after their word for men. Roma means 'men' in the Roma language. The Roma language is not related to Latin (only very, very distantly like all Indian and European languages). Romania does have a large population of Roma, but countries like Turkey, Spain, France, Bulgaria and many others also have very large populations. They are a traveling people who are normally not registered, so estimating their population is difficult.

The Romani are undocumented Natives?

Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.

It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.

I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?

jouso wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Germans did something like this the world would absolutely explode. I do not understand how the Italians are getting off so lightly, given their fascist history.

Its because Italy surrendered in 43. Italy like Austria profits from a partial perception that they were victims of Germany too.

As for the case in itself, Salvini is a waste of human skin. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot of popular pushback against it either inside or outside. I think its on seriously shaky ground and how will you deport people who are EU(or more likely Italian) citizens I presume, unless they have no paperwork in which case where would you even send them too. Seems like he's making a show for his supporters and nothing more. Got to appreciate the crickets from 5 star though, really lets you know what kind of party it really is.

You can deport a EU citizen to his home country if they don't have the means to sustain themselves and/or is a draw on the welfare system.

Belgium does it all the time.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/30/belgium-sends-burden-eu-citizens-letters-asking-them-to-leave-the-country

Is that the correct interpretation though as the UK decided tried to deport people because they were homeless (and there can't be many more that could be considered as being unable to sustain themselves) and the UK High Court judged it illegal under EU law.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/homeless-eu-citizens-deporting-illegal-policy-home-office-high-court-ruling-brexit-stop-a8110001.html

There are around a million of them living in the United States, but we do not count them as their own group so it is a rough guess.

Honestly I've never had contact with them, besides seeing a few of their funerals at a graveyard near my town. There usually was a large caravan of them in pretty nice cars when going to the graveyard

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.

It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.

I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?

No, and even if they are registered they often refuse to pay taxes. In turn, they often also do not have access to basic infrastructure such as electricity, running water and sewage, especially in Eastern Europe.
The fact that they have always lived under the radar can be explained by their semi-nomadic nature. They travel a lot, including between countries, which makes it hard to get a grasp on them. But most importantly, they have faced discrimination and racism from sedentary "white" European populations and their governments for as long as they have lived in Europe. That obviously has made them very distrustful and wary of governments, which is why they often do not want to register themselves. They prefer to stay hidden. Thirdly, a lot of them simply do not know any better. They live the same way as their parents did who lived the same way their parents did etc. etc. A lot of them simply do not see or understand the need for governments and their paperwork. A lack of formal education certainly contributes to that.
The communist governments in Eastern Europe put a lot of effort in getting the Roma 'under control', and they made a lot of advances in registering them, settling them down in sedentary communities with electricity, running water and such, sending Roma children to school and generally integrating them into society. Forcibly of course, because the Roma often weren't really willing. But then the communist states collapsed and in the upheaval a lot of the paperwork and progress was lost, and the new nationalist governments that replaced the communists were not at all interested in putting any effort into integrating the Roma. The forcible communist integration of Roma had not lasted long enough to leave a lasting imprint on the Roma people. If multiple generations of Roma children had grown up with the benefits of schools and jobs under the communist governments, it probably would have been quite different. But now they just went back to isolating themselves from society and governments. Not that I can blame them for that with how racist these new nationalist governments were to them (and still are).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Germans did something like this the world would absolutely explode. I do not understand how the Italians are getting off so lightly, given their fascist history.

Its because Italy surrendered in 43. Italy like Austria profits from a partial perception that they were victims of Germany too.

As for the case in itself, Salvini is a waste of human skin. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot of popular pushback against it either inside or outside. I think its on seriously shaky ground and how will you deport people who are EU(or more likely Italian) citizens I presume, unless they have no paperwork in which case where would you even send them too. Seems like he's making a show for his supporters and nothing more. Got to appreciate the crickets from 5 star though, really lets you know what kind of party it really is.

You can deport a EU citizen to his home country if they don't have the means to sustain themselves and/or is a draw on the welfare system.

Belgium does it all the time.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/30/belgium-sends-burden-eu-citizens-letters-asking-them-to-leave-the-country

Is that the correct interpretation though as the UK decided tried to deport people because they were homeless (and there can't be many more that could be considered as being unable to sustain themselves) and the UK High Court judged it illegal under EU law.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/homeless-eu-citizens-deporting-illegal-policy-home-office-high-court-ruling-brexit-stop-a8110001.html

There is a difference between deporting people and politely asking them to leave though.