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I’ve been seeing much more -1 to hits with the sudden popularity of all space elves factions; Raven Guard before that though I’m sure most factions have a source of -1 to hits.

What are the best counters to this? I run Tallarn Guard with Sisters, so I can bring up a ton of Flamer death, are there any other good counters we can use??

 davidgr33n wrote:
I’ve been seeing much more -1 to hits with the sudden popularity of all space elves factions; Raven Guard before that though I’m sure most factions have a source of -1 to hits.

What are the best counters to this? I run Tallarn Guard with Sisters, so I can bring up a ton of Flamer death, are there any other good counters we can use??

Good counters are units with good BS. Sadly, Guard isn't really one of them. Another good counter is mass re-roll access. If you normally re-roll 1's and 2's, it'll help offset suddenly missing on 4's and 5's.

The final counter I can think of is just a blizzerd of attacks to overpower the statistcal effect of the -1.

Also keep in mind that many of the -1 traits only apply outside 12". So if you can get close, you can bypass the trait.
Outside that, auto-hit like Flamers are a good choice. As is melee.

Best trick for Guard is to grab a Valkyrie and load it full of Ogryns or something. Jet up turn 1, grav chute out and clobber anything you like with a near guaranteed charge. Nothing else in the game has that kind of melee reach, unless your target is well screened also.

The Ravenguard and Alitoc Eldar is relatively easier to deal with because their -1 to hit only work when you are 12" away. Dark Eldar and Harlequin are more problematic since their -1 work at any range and are on transport that are dirt cheap and carrying powerful units and guns. The best way to deal with them is the S6+ D6/2D6/3D6 auto hit weapons, such as the deathwatch Frag Cannons, or that Valiant Imperial Knight main arm weapon.

SOB Immolators.

12" 2D6 Heavy Flamers that can be used after advancing. What's not to like?

Audustum wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
I’ve been seeing much more -1 to hits with the sudden popularity of all space elves factions; Raven Guard before that though I’m sure most factions have a source of -1 to hits.

What are the best counters to this? I run Tallarn Guard with Sisters, so I can bring up a ton of Flamer death, are there any other good counters we can use??

Good counters are units with good BS. Sadly, Guard isn't really one of them. Another good counter is mass re-roll access. If you normally re-roll 1's and 2's, it'll help offset suddenly missing on 4's and 5's.

The final counter I can think of is just a blizzerd of attacks to overpower the statistcal effect of the -1.

Even most BS3+ factions will struggle if they’re only hitting half the time. Custodes are the only faction that have BS2+ across the board, but they won’t have the numbers.

Audustum wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
I’ve been seeing much more -1 to hits with the sudden popularity of all space elves factions; Raven Guard before that though I’m sure most factions have a source of -1 to hits.

What are the best counters to this? I run Tallarn Guard with Sisters, so I can bring up a ton of Flamer death, are there any other good counters we can use??

Good counters are units with good BS. Sadly, Guard isn't really one of them. Another good counter is mass re-roll access. If you normally re-roll 1's and 2's, it'll help offset suddenly missing on 4's and 5's.

The final counter I can think of is just a blizzerd of attacks to overpower the statistcal effect of the -1.

Rerolls don't help, remember that you can't reroll a miss caused by a penalty. A roll of 4 with a BS 4+ and a penalty of -1 cannot be rerolled.

If you talking about -1 to hit gunlines, then you are toast, they exist to counter guards and T'au. If things get out of hand, they try some hellhounds.

A Vostroyan Baneblade(variant) with Firstborn Pride played on it can hit as usual against -1 to hit enemies. Just 1CP.

Or a Vostroyan Tank Commander (who starts at BS3+) with Executioner Plasma Cannon and Firstborn Pride played on it.

Cannot overheat and hits on 2+ before modifiers, ordering itself to reroll 1s.
Against -1 to hit it hits on a 3+ and can order itself to reroll 1s, which with -1/+1 cancelling each other out it still gets to do.

High BS (the higher your BS, the lower the effect it will have on you).
Auto-hit weapons (circumnavigates the to hit modifier).
Run a melee army (there are only a few negative to hot modifiers in the game that apply in melee).

Besides that, draw them into positions that remove their modifier to hit: get ravenguard within 12", make Custodes leave their -1 to hit bubble, make chaos use their psychic powers on smite instead, etc.

-1 to hit is around. The problem is when it stacks to -2. Or when you play as an ork. Although paying for a high premium for bs skill do not like to get it reduced.

Melee overcomes this.

Spoletta wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
I’ve been seeing much more -1 to hits with the sudden popularity of all space elves factions; Raven Guard before that though I’m sure most factions have a source of -1 to hits.

What are the best counters to this? I run Tallarn Guard with Sisters, so I can bring up a ton of Flamer death, are there any other good counters we can use??

Good counters are units with good BS. Sadly, Guard isn't really one of them. Another good counter is mass re-roll access. If you normally re-roll 1's and 2's, it'll help offset suddenly missing on 4's and 5's.

The final counter I can think of is just a blizzerd of attacks to overpower the statistcal effect of the -1.

Rerolls don't help, remember that you can't reroll a miss caused by a penalty. A roll of 4 with a BS 4+ and a penalty of -1 cannot be rerolled.

If you talking about -1 to hit gunlines, then you are toast, they exist to counter guards and T'au. If things get out of hand, they try some hellhounds.

I wasn't saying this in the slightest. I was saying that if you are BS 3+ (for example) and have a way to re-roll 1's and 2's then the 'hit' you take from the -1 one on your average number of hits is lessened: you're still hitting the vast majority of shots even if 3's now miss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 davidgr33n wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
I’ve been seeing much more -1 to hits with the sudden popularity of all space elves factions; Raven Guard before that though I’m sure most factions have a source of -1 to hits.

What are the best counters to this? I run Tallarn Guard with Sisters, so I can bring up a ton of Flamer death, are there any other good counters we can use??

Good counters are units with good BS. Sadly, Guard isn't really one of them. Another good counter is mass re-roll access. If you normally re-roll 1's and 2's, it'll help offset suddenly missing on 4's and 5's.

The final counter I can think of is just a blizzerd of attacks to overpower the statistcal effect of the -1.

Even most BS3+ factions will struggle if they’re only hitting half the time. Custodes are the only faction that have BS2+ across the board, but they won’t have the numbers.

BS3+ with full re-rolls doesn't miss a ton against -1. It's why a Chapter Master with Fire Raptors was actually a valid tactic against Alaitoc builds (in addition to curb stomping a lot of other things).

 davidgr33n wrote:
I’ve been seeing much more -1 to hits with the sudden popularity of all space elves factions; Raven Guard before that though I’m sure most factions have a source of -1 to hits.

What are the best counters to this? I run Tallarn Guard with Sisters, so I can bring up a ton of Flamer death, are there any other good counters we can use??

Yeah, -1 is all over the place. Best solution: more dakka

The best solution is to play the -1 to hit armies yourself because they are the best. Or beg GW to use common sense and remove such a BS army trait in the first place.

Fast, typically flying melee units such as Custodes Jetbikes, Celestine, Slamguinius and the gang, shining spears or daemon princes do well usually.

As a guard player Celestine and 3 Dawneagle Captains tends to help me overcome Aliatoc armies, but if they're flier heavy it can still be uphill because the guard just do so little vs -2.

Deepstriking.

Closing the gap as fast as possible is really the best way.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The best solution is to play the -1 to hit armies yourself because they are the best. Or beg GW to use common sense and remove such a BS army trait in the first place.

agreed... but then they should remove too all those bucket of re rollable dice you roll every fire phase and will be fair, remove only 1 thing... no ty (and i dont play stackable -1/-2).

On the Sisters side, Immolators, Dominions (most -1 to hit are from greater than 12" away), and Celestine are the best options.

I don't know much about Guard, but Bullgyn come to mind. Weight of fire can often overcome a -1 to hit depending on the target. And with many -1 to hit modifiers being distance-based, you can drop some Scions or something.

Scions are pretty hot.

Spartacus wrote:
Best trick for Guard is to grab a Valkyrie and load it full of Ogryns or something. Jet up turn 1, grav chute out and clobber anything you like with a near guaranteed charge. Nothing else in the game has that kind of melee reach, unless your target is well screened also.

A unit that has to get out 9" from any enemy, doesn't have fly and makes a guaranteed charge into whatever the outer ring of your opponent's screen is?

Lots of things in the game have that kind of melee reach. There's also the matter of you needing to be actually good when you get into that melee, which is where those 3 bullgryns and a priest kind of fall apart: they're not actually that threatening, especially not to common screen units.

Martel732 wrote:
Scions are pretty hot.

Maybe? When I think of dealing with a -2 to hit Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Exarch, I’m not really wanting a plasma gun. Are you thinking Melta or GLs?

the_scotsman wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Best trick for Guard is to grab a Valkyrie and load it full of Ogryns or something. Jet up turn 1, grav chute out and clobber anything you like with a near guaranteed charge. Nothing else in the game has that kind of melee reach, unless your target is well screened also.

A unit that has to get out 9" from any enemy, doesn't have fly and makes a guaranteed charge into whatever the outer ring of your opponent's screen is?

Lots of things in the game have that kind of melee reach. There's also the matter of you needing to be actually good when you get into that melee, which is where those 3 bullgryns and a priest kind of fall apart: they're not actually that threatening, especially not to common screen units.

You shoot the screening stuff of course. The Ogryns are wasted on that. Doesn't need to be Ogryns either. Make it Melta guns or something.

Anythings better than the typical derpy Guard tactic of piling a square of battlecannons and earthshakers into one corner of the table, screening them with 4 point bodies 4 ranks deep, then rolling fistfulls of dice with full rerolls until one army is destroyed.

What would you recommend, keep trying the gunline(cube?) when it neither works nor does anything interesting?

Thousand Sons psykers don't care about no -1 to hit. Hit them with ALL THE SMITES!!! Not as effective against one of the most annoying -1 to hit things in the game, that being large units of Plaguebearers, as they get a 5+ Disgustingly Resilient roll. Plaguebearers have it even better, as their -1 also applies in melee, as long as there are 20 or more models in the unit.

Spoletta wrote:

Rerolls don't help, remember that you can't reroll a miss caused by a penalty. A roll of 4 with a BS 4+ and a penalty of -1 cannot be rerolled.

In point of fact, if you give a BS 4+ unit the ability to re-roll misses, it exactly cancels out the effects of -1 to hit. That is, it puts the firing unit back to exactly a net 50% to hit. And yes, that is taking into account the fact that you can't re-roll 4s.

Incidentally, the same thing happens to be true for BS 3+. Re-rolling 1s and 2s, to hit on 4, 5, or 6, exactly cancels out a -1 to hit penalty.

It's my opinion that a lot of people dramatically overestimate/overstate the actual practical impact of -1 to hit. I'd offer the above statement that re-rolls "don't help," when they actually completely negate the penalty (for the by far most common BS ratings in the game), as a data point in support that.

meleti wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scions are pretty hot.

Maybe? When I think of dealing with a -2 to hit Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Exarch, I’m not really wanting a plasma gun. Are you thinking Melta or GLs?

Probably just ignore it. You're IG and have infinite tanks and infinite dudes.

For imperial guard defensive spotlights and salamander command tanks help, assuming FW rules aren't an issue.

Otherwise, get close and flamer away.

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scions are pretty hot.

Maybe? When I think of dealing with a -2 to hit Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Exarch, I’m not really wanting a plasma gun. Are you thinking Melta or GLs?

Probably just ignore it. You're IG and have infinite tanks and infinite dudes.

So one of the lists floating around right now is 3 Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 3 Hemlock Wrathfighters, and a battalion with three Wave Serpents. That's a majority of the army operating with -2 to hit, possibly better through psychic powers. You can't really just ignore your opponent's whole army. The only answer I've got for dealing with this, though, is to just run a bunch of Hellhounds (preferably Artemia Pattern) or other heavy flamer units.

meleti wrote:

Spoiler:

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scions are pretty hot.

Maybe? When I think of dealing with a -2 to hit Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Exarch, I’m not really wanting a plasma gun. Are you thinking Melta or GLs?

Probably just ignore it. You're IG and have infinite tanks and infinite dudes.

So one of the lists floating around right now is 3 Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 3 Hemlock Wrathfighters, and a battalion with three Wave Serpents. That's a majority of the army operating with -2 to hit, possibly better through psychic powers. You can't really just ignore your opponent's whole army. The only answer I've got for dealing with this, though, is to just run a bunch of Hellhounds (preferably Artemia Pattern) or other heavy flamer units.

Hemlocks, while awesome, have guns that are only 16" and powers that are only 18". In my experience, they rarely get -2 to hit past the first turn because they end up very close to most of the enemy. Often because their ideal targets are deep within the enemy deployment.
Also, there are no psychic powers that affect those particular units for an additional -1 to be hit. Just a stratagem that can only affect 1 unit at a time. Ignore that unit, shoot the others.

The best counter to that particular list is anything that can spam a lot of melee units with Fly. Blood Angels come to mind.
If you can get past the -1/-2 to hit the Flyers are pretty fragile. Serpents might give you issues, but they have a hard time getting -2 to be hit since they:
A) have to advance and
B) want to be close for their cargo

So they like only get -1 for either bonus, but rarely even both.

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 Galef wrote:

meleti wrote:

Spoiler:

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scions are pretty hot.

Maybe? When I think of dealing with a -2 to hit Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Exarch, I’m not really wanting a plasma gun. Are you thinking Melta or GLs?

Probably just ignore it. You're IG and have infinite tanks and infinite dudes.

So one of the lists floating around right now is 3 Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 3 Hemlock Wrathfighters, and a battalion with three Wave Serpents. That's a majority of the army operating with -2 to hit, possibly better through psychic powers. You can't really just ignore your opponent's whole army. The only answer I've got for dealing with this, though, is to just run a bunch of Hellhounds (preferably Artemia Pattern) or other heavy flamer units.

Hemlocks, while awesome, have guns that are only 16" and powers that are only 18". In my experience, they rarely get -2 to hit past the first turn because they end up very close to most of the enemy. Often because their ideal targets are deep within the enemy deployment.
Also, there are no psychic powers that affect those particular units for an additional -1 to be hit. Just a stratagem that can only affect 1 unit at a time. Ignore that unit, shoot the others.

The best counter to that particular list is anything that can spam a lot of melee units with Fly. Blood Angels come to mind.
If you can get past the -1/-2 to hit the Flyers are pretty fragile. Serpents might give you issues, but they have a hard time getting -2 to be hit since they:
A) have to advance and
B) want to be close for their cargo

So they like only get -1 for either bonus, but rarely even both.

-

The Hemlocks are getting the -2 more often than you might think, they can move close enough to their target without being within 12” of every other unit in a Guard player’s army. It’s not a 100% thing (you can deploy all castled up and squeeze more units into a 12” window with a move), but it’s not a 0% thing either.

The Wave Serpents aren’t really carrying important infantry in this list. It’s only like ~200 points total of infantry to accommodate for all the vehicles and flyers.

And yeah, the only thing that gets buffed by psychic powers to -3 are Rangers potentially. Lightning-fast Reactions is what contributes to -3 on vehicles, I should have mentioned that.

meleti wrote:

The Hemlocks are getting the -2 more often than you might think, they can move close enough to their target without being within 12” of every other unit in a Guard player’s army. It’s not a 100% thing (you can deploy all castled up and squeeze more units into a 12” window with a move), but it’s not a 0% thing either.

Fair enough, but I would argue that those situations are more an error in the Guard players deployment than a comment on how good Hemlocks are.

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