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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





For starters, lets say I really miss Battlefleet Gothic, and given GW's revival of specialist games, I'm hoping for a return. I'm a campaign/ narrative player, so I used to use BFG to frame 40k campaigns, and occasionally, we would have BFG games that could influence the 40k campaign and vice versa.

So my background question/ discussion is about whether or not the Imperial Navy has developed stronger relationships with the 40k factions. In the original fluff, military forces were somewhat restricted in that they rely upon the Navy to get them to the theatre of war rather than maintaining their own fleets. Space Marines are an exception, in that they do have some custom ships that are unavailable to the Imperium at large.

With the new Sisters Codex on the way, I find myself wondering how they'll expand the fluff for each of the orders to generate order specific strategems. I want all Sisters to have access to a flier, but I find myself thinking that GW could use that to distinguish one faction from the others. I see a convent in space- their chapel/cathedral is built into a capital ship, and the entire order goes where it is needed at any given moment. These are the Sisters who would have had Guilliman's back during the crusade to take the Imperium back.

Some have said they don't think the Sisters would have their own fliers; given their role as defenders of the faith against heresy and insurrection, I think that's a legitimate point of view. I want fliers, don't get me wrong, but I do understand the argument against them- it's only by a technicality that the Sisters exist at all, and the odds of the Imperium being comfortable with giving intergalactic autonomy to such a force is unlikely. However, I'm hopeful that times are so dire that there will be greater interaction with the Navy and other factions- especially our beloved Sisterhood.

So what do you think? Could sisters fly? Should they? If you had to pick one, which do you think would be fluffiest- fighter, bomber or transport? Do you think an Intergalactic Convent would be cool?



   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

GW has announced they will be making a new BFG style game. It will be set in the 30K era though, and I wouldn't be surprised if they change the scale of the ships some to make it so everyone has to buy now stuff.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hmmm... Haven't bought into any of the 30k stuff- no Sisters by definition, and that's the core of my Imperium.

Without crossover potential for 40k I probably won't invest. That way I can buy the new Sisters when they drop.
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

Sisters have been a long time user of the Avenger Strike Fighter in the fluff

   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




The avenger fighter-bomber is a navy fighter that the sororitas traditionally request as support from the navy, because it was the confederation of light's main fighter during the apostasy. They will be flown by allied navy pilots, though.

The naval assets of the sororitas are always unclear. The sororitas strike force implies they have transport craft able to mount drop pods, but the witch hunter codex implies they're not true warships like their astartes equivalent with orbital gunfire only available when theyre acting in their chamber militant role with inquisitors in tow.

Daemonifuge does feature a battleship called "hammer of thor", but the officers are wearing imperial navy uniforms so I think it's an allied service ship sworn in.

A minor order based on a warship.....its doable. Sb

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




PenitentJake wrote:
So my background question/ discussion is about whether or not the Imperial Navy has developed stronger relationships with the 40k factions. In the original fluff, military forces were somewhat restricted in that they rely upon the Navy to get them to the theatre of war rather than maintaining their own fleets. Space Marines are an exception, in that they do have some custom ships that are unavailable to the Imperium at large.


Even the mighty Space Marines request Navy help if they need to break through a larger enemy fleet or there's a need to establish air superiority for operations on a planet. In the fluff there's also a naval fighter unit that impressed the Black Templars (I think) so much they were granted the right to carry the Chapter symbol as a unit honor in their heraldry.

And as mentioned the SoB like to ask for Avenger Strike Fighter support, but the mandatory division of military forces still means the fighters aren't theirs. Naval Commissars probably keep close watch on the pilots so they don't get any ideas about obeying the Canoness on the ground over their own coordinating officer.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






SoB don't have flyers. Space marines don't have flyers (other than transports poorly suited for combat). IG don't have flyers. The Imperial Navy has them all. GW's decision to go back on that piece of fluff to sell horribly ugly space marine flyer kits was a very stupid one and should be ignored.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 10:12:23


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Peregrine wrote:
SoB don't have flyers. Space marines don't have flyers (other than transports poorly suited for combat). IG don't have flyers. The Imperial Navy has them all. GW's decision to go back on that piece of fluff to sell horribly ugly space marine flyer kits was a very stupid one and should be ignored.


Space Marines have ALWAYS pushed the limits of what they're technicly allowed.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





You really can't say space marines don't have fliers. There are seven space marine flier kits if you include the Corvus Blackstar and Nephilim jet fighter. You can argue that the Stormtalon and Stormhawk are different builds of the same kit, just as you can argue that the Stormwolf and Stormfang are different builds of the same kit, but that still leaves you with three options that are available to generic marines with multiple builds, plus two extra options for dogfight specialist and rapid insertion force.

I haven't seen the Astra Militarum dex, but by the index, the Valkyrie has the Astra Militarum tag, meaning it can be included not only in an AM army but also an AM detachment without compromising the CP integrity. While technically not an AM flyer, it effectively fills that role on the battlefield.

That's all I'm asking for as a Sisters player- an Aeronautica Imperialis unit that includes either the Adepta Sororitas (preferred), <Order> (tolerable), Adeptas Ministorum (pretty cool, although it feels like a violation of the decree passive).

We only need one kit; GW can decide whether it should be a fighter, a bomber or a transport. If the new release contains Celestians redesigned to be mid-level close assault, a Corvus Blackstar equivalent with ornamentation similar to the cathedral feel on the Nephilim kit would be an excellent delivery system.

Alternately, there could be a strategem (Order Specific or general) that allowed your faction to include an existing Imperial Flier kit as if it included your faction trait (Sororitas, <Order> or Ministorum as above).

They could also just add one of the existing fliers to the dex for general use. If they didn't release a Sisters upgrade or variant kit, you could always use bits from the Exorcist or Immolator to kitbash a Sisters themed version. That might be the simplest option, though it doesn't feel us fluffy as some of the others.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






PenitentJake wrote:
You really can't say space marines don't have fliers. There are seven space marine flier kits if you include the Corvus Blackstar and Nephilim jet fighter. You can argue that the Stormtalon and Stormhawk are different builds of the same kit, just as you can argue that the Stormwolf and Stormfang are different builds of the same kit, but that still leaves you with three options that are available to generic marines with multiple builds, plus two extra options for dogfight specialist and rapid insertion force.


This is heresy, which should be punished by death. I can't wait until GW matches the fluff and puts the <CHAOS> keyword on these units, representing the fact that any chapter using them has clearly set themselves on a course of treason against the Emperor.

I haven't seen the Astra Militarum dex, but by the index, the Valkyrie has the Astra Militarum tag, meaning it can be included not only in an AM army but also an AM detachment without compromising the CP integrity. While technically not an AM flyer, it effectively fills that role on the battlefield.


This is true rules-wise but not true fluff-wise. Valkyries are Imperial Navy aircraft, detached to support IG units but not under their command. They really shouldn't have the <IMPERIAL GUARD> keyword.

That's all I'm asking for as a Sisters player- an Aeronautica Imperialis unit that includes either the Adepta Sororitas (preferred), <Order> (tolerable), Adeptas Ministorum (pretty cool, although it feels like a violation of the decree passive).


Why? Take a flyer detachment with three Imperial Navy aircraft, problem solved.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Tell me Perigirine, do you also insist that Tigerius is a half-eldar?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






BrianDavion wrote:
Tell me Perigirine, do you also insist that Tigerius is a half-eldar?


That would certainly be a good example of why space marines are prone to heresy and blasphemous acts, and should not be trusted with the full range of military capabilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/07 05:42:01


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Tigurius was never half eldar.

That was Ilyan Nastase - astropath and not even a full marine, anyway. I'm told he played a mean game of Ta'nis, too.
He also had a temper to rival KHAAAAAAAAAN! and some minor imperial hero called MC Enroe.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I could just add a flier detachment from an allied force. And I suppose no one would care if I modded them up in sisters theme as long as it didn't alter any of the rules. I just want all the vehicles I field to have an aesthetic that is consistent with the exorcist and the immolator. The Nephilim fighter has almost the perfect look, but its iconography is very obviously Dark Angels.

It is true that fliers and superheavies don't necessarily fit into every army based on fluff, but if you play an army that doesn't have access to a particular unit type, you do feel like you might be missing out on an element of the game. I was floored when I heard Forgeworld made the Avenger an Adepta Sororitas vehicle, and equally bummed when they took it away. It just made my army feel more real, more valid.

Don't worry, I'm not a whiner- I know it's a stretch to ask for a flier and a superheavy in the long awaited dex, and I won't let it wreck me if we don't get it. Heck, they're giving us a trial run in CA 2018 to make sure they get our dex right and they're releasing plastic sisters- after years of neglect, I'm thrilled!

But wow, would it ever be cool to get one or the other. Or both... Dare to dream!

(On a sidenote, fewer armies have superheavies than fliers I think)
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

I personally have no problem with SoB having flyers in the fluff. IRL the US army cannot even have ground attack aircraft, but a Televangelist can have multiple private jets. The separation of flyers and ground troops is only for the Officio Munitorum, not for the churches private army.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




PenitentJake wrote:
I could just add a flier detachment from an allied force. And I suppose no one would care if I modded them up in sisters theme as long as it didn't alter any of the rules. I just want all the vehicles I field to have an aesthetic that is consistent with the exorcist and the immolator. The Nephilim fighter has almost the perfect look, but its iconography is very obviously Dark Angels.

It is true that fliers and superheavies don't necessarily fit into every army based on fluff, but if you play an army that doesn't have access to a particular unit type, you do feel like you might be missing out on an element of the game. I was floored when I heard Forgeworld made the Avenger an Adepta Sororitas vehicle, and equally bummed when they took it away. It just made my army feel more real, more valid.

Don't worry, I'm not a whiner- I know it's a stretch to ask for a flier and a superheavy in the long awaited dex, and I won't let it wreck me if we don't get it. Heck, they're giving us a trial run in CA 2018 to make sure they get our dex right and they're releasing plastic sisters- after years of neglect, I'm thrilled!

But wow, would it ever be cool to get one or the other. Or both... Dare to dream!

(On a sidenote, fewer armies have superheavies than fliers I think)


As noted; the Avenger was available to sororitas armies, but it was always an attached navy unit - it wasn't sisters flying it, like navy units embedded in a guard army.
Flyer wings work perfectly well.

That said, unlike the decree passive, or the 'rules' about the astartes fleet or their command of guard units, there isnt an actual rule saying all fliers are aeronautica, just that the guard themselves don't get them. So a sororitas flyer is technically possible.




Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






PenitentJake wrote:
And I suppose no one would care if I modded them up in sisters theme as long as it didn't alter any of the rules. I just want all the vehicles I field to have an aesthetic that is consistent with the exorcist and the immolator.


You could do that, using the standard IG flyer rules in a flyer detachment and converting them to have more decoration, but it would be un-fluffy.

It is true that fliers and superheavies don't necessarily fit into every army based on fluff, but if you play an army that doesn't have access to a particular unit type, you do feel like you might be missing out on an element of the game. I was floored when I heard Forgeworld made the Avenger an Adepta Sororitas vehicle, and equally bummed when they took it away. It just made my army feel more real, more valid.


But you're not missing anything. The fluff of the Avenger was that it was an Imperial Navy unit that the SoB liked to request more frequently than other aircraft, still flown by Navy pilots under the Navy chain of command. Rules-wise it was exactly identical to the version IG armies could take, with no SoB-specific bonuses or anything. Now you can take Imperial Navy aircraft as a flyer detachment, getting exactly the same thing that you had in the past. There was never a point where you had access to true SoB aircraft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tygre wrote:
I personally have no problem with SoB having flyers in the fluff. IRL the US army cannot even have ground attack aircraft, but a Televangelist can have multiple private jets. The separation of flyers and ground troops is only for the Officio Munitorum, not for the churches private army.


The difference is that the US army doesn't get fixed-wing aircraft because of politics between branches and the US air force not wanting its funding to be at risk of being declared redundant, while Imperial factions are restricted in what they get because of that civil war that nearly destroyed the Imperium. The whole point is that no Imperial faction or unit has all of the resources to fight a successful war against unified opposition. If an IG regiment turns traitor they're stranded on a planet because they have no ships to transport them, and they have little chance of winning a ground war because they're a pure infantry/artillery/armored/etc regiment with none of the other parts of a combined arms force. If an Imperial Navy ship turns traitor it will have no ground combat ability. If a space marine force turns traitor it will have nothing but elite infantry and no ability to fight wars of attrition without being wiped out. Etc. Having each of the Imperium's factions depend on the cooperation of the others is a matter of religious faith, merely suggesting breaking that separation would be likely to get you executed on suspicion of treason.

As for the whole "church's private army" idea, that's something that would get them even more suspicion. SoB are already an attempt to exploit a loophole in the rules, putting the church's loyalty in doubt. I would imagine they'd be grudgingly tolerated as long as they continue to demonstrate absolute loyalty to the Imperium, but attempting to get their own aircraft and independence from Imperial Navy support would look, at best, like attempting to find another loophole to get away with something. At worst it would be a red flag that their loyalty is no longer beyond question. After all, if the church is not plotting treason why does it need its own aircraft? The Imperial Navy will gladly provide death from above when called on by the Imperium's loyal servants, so the only reason to need independent SoB aircraft would be if the soon-to-be traitors know that the Navy will reject their heresy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/08 07:41:05


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Perigrine, perhaps you could find the post heresy reconstruction passage that restricts the sisters of battle from having their own flier?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

The answer to fluff is always more fluff.

"Sister Superior, what are those? You know your Order cannot operate its own fliers!"
"Those? Those are Navy fliers, maintained by our lay followers, and flown by Battle Sisters since the pilots were unfortunately struck down by food poisoning 12 years ago. We are prepared to return them to their ship as soon as the ISS Inevitable Victory returns from the Tyr Segmentum Crusade."
"But that's five sectors away!"
"And until the ship returns we will care for them to the best of our abilities."

 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK


You could do that, using the standard IG flyer rules in a flyer detachment and converting them to have more decoration, but it would be un-fluffy.


Its been established quite a few times that Imperial Navy Squadrons may well have decoration and plates showing campaign honours and comendations - often from Astartes, having similar ones from Sisters - the Daughters of the Emperor would not be that unlikely.

The Sisters do have some void warships - class and capabilities have not been defined other than they are reltaively fast, they are likely to be similar to Marine Escorts and maybe a few Strike Cruisers but they will rely on Navy support for the most part as noted earlier thats part of the whole point of the way the Imperial Military works. No one is supposed to be able to do everything - Espeically not Marines.


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Thanks for all the contributions to the conversation folks; I'm kind with Kid Kyoton the answer to fluff is fluff- that's how I'll make it work when the time comes. I've still got some other parts of the sisters army that need painting, so I'll work on that until the dex drops.

If there are fliers and superheavies, I'll buy them. If there aren't I will kitbash them, use them as allied detachments and fluff it up.

I have a walker idea too- Raging Heroes War Pulpit. The limbs don't look GW enough, so I'll probably just take the torso and mash it up with a warglaive. But that model will look sooo good flanked with Penitent Engines.

   
 
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