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So my friend was telling me about some games he had with his harlies and how his solitaire murdered a blob of 20 genestealers by himself because of the suit of hidden knives. The suit of hidden knives is a relic that if the enemy rolls a 1 to hit you in melee then after all attacks are resolved you roll a dice for every 1. On a 2 plus the attacking unit takes a mortal wound. So what he did was cast a power on him to make him -1 to hit then use lightning reflexes to make him -2 then charged him in so the genestealers would eat mortal wounds on a 1, 2 or 3. Pretty awesome strategy. Anyways this thought occurred to me when thinking about the mechanics of the relic. What if the solitaire dies before all attacks are resolved? The model carrying the relic is now dead so how can the relic take effect? What would be the difference between the relic still working after the model carrying it has been removed and say Kurov's aquila ceasing to function after the guy carrying it has died? Can you reference and apply the rules and abilities of a dead model? Even for explodes you carry out the result before removing the model and it specifies you resolve attacks before you remove slain models from like plasma overheat.

I would of course play it that it still works, but it is something I found interesting and would appreciate it a RAW response to how this would work.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
so the genestealers would eat mortal wounds on a 1, 2 or 3.

If I'm reading that right, that is incorrect. No matter the penalty to hit, possible mortal wounds still only count on physical dice rolls of a 1, not a modified 1. Assuming genestealers only have 1 wound, the GS player would have had to have rolled 20 1's (minus whatever wounds the solitaire caused with normal attacks)

kaotkbliss wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
so the genestealers would eat mortal wounds on a 1, 2 or 3.

If I'm reading that right, that is incorrect. No matter the penalty to hit, possible mortal wounds still only count on physical dice rolls of a 1, not a modified 1. Assuming genestealers only have 1 wound, the GS player would have had to have rolled 20 1's (minus whatever wounds the solitaire caused with normal attacks)

Why do you think it's an unmodified 1? The rule doesn't say so (contrast with several Knight abilities that say unmodified 6).

To the OP: You are correct that negative modifiers increase the chance of Suit of Hidden Knives triggering, since dice cannot be modified below one as per the Designers Commentary.

Because if you roll a 2, then apply a -1 modifier to it, you still rolled a 2, not a 1.

kaotkbliss wrote:
Because if you roll a 2, then apply a -1 modifier to it, you still rolled a 2, not a 1.

... So that means when I have -1 to hit with my BS2+ unit, I still hit on 2's. After all, I rolled a 2 and the rules say I have to roll a 2 to hit.

Think about what you're saying for a moment...

You seem to have fallen into the trap a lot of people do, you think the modifiers change the number you need, rather than the roll itself. This is not the case. If you have -3 to hit, you're generating a number on a D6-3, capped to a low of 1. Which means your possible results are a 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, or 3.

No, I see it as "counts-as" so 2 counts-as 1. But when there is a special rule that says if you roll x number, then the dice actually has to show that number for the rule to apply.

That's my interpretation anyways and it's also the way we've always played and understood the rules.

kaotkbliss wrote:
No, I see it as "counts-as" so 2 counts-as 1. But when there is a special rule that says if you roll x number, then the dice actually has to show that number for the rule to apply.

That's my interpretation anyways and it's also the way we've always played and understood the rules.

Well, you're wrong. No other way to put it really. You're free to make up whatever rules you want, but you are not following the actual rules when you do that.

Why does shooting "count as" 1 but not rolling to hit? "Special Rules" aren't different to the core rules. You can't have it both ways, it has to be the same for both or for neither.

To clarify: I am not asking about the - to hit modifiers. I know that was already legit and worked the way described. I was asking an entirely different question.

Rolling to hit would count too. I never said it didn't. I'm just saying that in any game I've played (WHFB, 40K, WH Quest, D&D, Cyberpunk, Vampire, etc.) in the 30+ years, Special circumstances that happen on a specific number, only happen on that natural number. Not modified.

So if you originally need a 3 to hit, on a 1 you die and you have a -1 to hit.

You roll a 2, you still miss but you did not roll a natural 1, therefore you don't die.

Now say you did hit (rolled a 3) you need a 4 to wound, on a 6 you auto kill your enemy. You have a +2 to wound.

You roll a 4, you wound but do not auto kill because you did not roll a natural 6.

kaotkbliss wrote:
Rolling to hit would count too. I never said it didn't. I'm just saying that in any game I've played (WHFB, 40K, WH Quest, D&D, Cyberpunk, Vampire, etc.) in the 30+ years, Special circumstances that happen on a specific number, only happen on that natural number. Not modified.

So if you originally need a 3 to hit, on a 1 you die and you have a -1 to hit.

You roll a 2, you still miss but you did not roll a natural 1, therefore you don't die.

Now say you did hit (rolled a 3) you need a 4 to wound, on a 6 you auto kill your enemy. You have a +2 to wound.

You roll a 4, you wound but do not auto kill because you did not roll a natural 6.

Which is categorically proven false by the Designers Commentary.

Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this refer to the result of the dice rolls before or after modifiers are applied?
A: It refers to the final result, after re-rolls and modifiers (if any) have been applied. The only exception to this would be abilities that specifically state, for example, ‘unmodified hit rolls of 6’, or ‘hit rolls of 6 before modifiers are applied.’

Sorry, you're flat out wrong.

Ok, I accept that. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

To try and answer the OP's question (finally) I believe all results are still calculated even if there is more than enough wounds to kill the solitaire because "it all actually happened at the same time"

Regarding if the Solitaire dies, you need to resolve attacks one at a time until he dies. You edit: shouldn't batch roll in this case because it disadvantages the nid player, but they can.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Regarding if the Solitaire dies, you need to resolve attacks one at a time until he dies. You can't batch roll in this case because it matters the order things are done in.

I understand the part about resolving attacks one at a time until the model carrying the knives dies because yeah that could result in you having less models die to the knives. I am sure if you are feeling lazy and willing to take the casualties though your opponent won't mind if you batch roll those 20 genestealer attacks. What is stated for a fact though is that the relic's ability kicks in after all attacks are resolved. So if the carrier dies before all attacks are resolved can can you still even roll for the relic to start killing guys?

I'm a little hesitant to answer since my track record in this thread is 0-2 right now LOL
But going on this info, My interpretation is since it states that the relic activates after normal attacks are resolved, then no. It wouldn't do anything if the user died before then.

kaotkbliss wrote:
I'm a little hesitant to answer since my track record in this thread is 0-2 right now LOL
But going on this info, My interpretation is since it states that the relic activates after normal attacks are resolved, then no. It wouldn't do anything if the user died before then.

You're always free to voice your opinion.

But I would say otherwise because how it is written.

"Roll a D6 each time a hit roll of 1 is made for an enemy Model targeting the wearer in the Fight Phase. On a 2+ , that models unit suffers a mortal wounds after the unit has resolved All of it's attacks."
The trigger happens on the hit roll. The Solitaire would still be alive.
So you basicly need to roll the same amount of dice as wounds left on the Solitaire. On any hit roll of 1,roll a dice for the relic. When he dies you stop rolling any more attacks. Then you resolve the mortal wounds.

Weidekuh wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
I'm a little hesitant to answer since my track record in this thread is 0-2 right now LOL
But going on this info, My interpretation is since it states that the relic activates after normal attacks are resolved, then no. It wouldn't do anything if the user died before then.

You're always free to voice your opinion.

But I would say otherwise because how it is written.

"Roll a D6 each time a hit roll of 1 is made for an enemy Model targeting the wearer in the Fight Phase. On a 2+ , that models unit suffers a mortal wounds after the unit has resolved All of it's attacks."
The trigger happens on the hit roll. The Solitaire would still be alive.
So you basicly need to roll the same amount of dice as wounds left on the Solitaire. On any hit roll of 1,roll a dice for the relic. When he dies you stop rolling any more attacks. Then you resolve the mortal wounds.

Right, but by the time the unit has resolved all of it's attacks the carrier is dead thus the relic is no longer in play. If you go to apply the mortal wounds to the attacking unit you are referencing rules of a relic that was on a model that is now dead.

It's weird that it says on a hit roll of 1, implying the artifact takes affect during the initial attack, before wounding. But then goes on to say that the attacker suffers mortal wounds after all the other attacks are resolved.

So I guess you could look at it as roll to hit as normal, artifact queues up it retaliation, solitaire suffers wounds from the attack, then the artifact unleashes it's power.

*edit*

Unless attacks implies just the "to hit" part and not the "to wound" part.

kaotkbliss wrote:
It's weird that it says on a hit roll of 1, implying the artifact takes affect during the initial attack, before wounding. But then goes on to say that the attacker suffers mortal wounds after all the other attacks are resolved.

So I guess you could look at it as roll to hit as normal, artifact queues up it retaliation, solitaire suffers wounds from the attack, then the artifact unleashes it's power.

*edit*

Unless attacks implies just the "to hit" part and not the "to wound" part.

Resolving an attack is the complete process of to hit wound save and apply damage. So while yes the relic triggers during the to hits portion of this per attack it is resolved after all attacks are finished. If I have 30 attacks, but the 29th kills you then you are dead before all of my attacks are resolved. If you are dead and gone how can you use a rule on your datasheet/relic you were carrying?

Edit: To bring up another question and add to what I believe is the RIA argument (that it would still work even if the carrier died) is the Traitor's Embrace relic for the Dark Eldar. It says "Roll a D6 if the bearer is slain in the fight phase. on a 2+ the unit that killed this unit suffers D6 mortal wounds after it has finished making all of its attacks." That is the battlescribe reading so it may not be exactly the same as what the book says so please correct me if I'm wrong. So this relic says it works after the carrier is slain, but it never says before removing as a causality so the intent is that it would work after you have already removed the carrier. However would this work RAW? How could this relic ever work because by the time you go to use it the rule is no longer featured in the game due to the model carrying it being dead.

That's what I figured
But rereading the rule multiple times, it sounds like the enemy models are already hit by the relic before the solitaire dies and so does not need to be in play to resolve the wounds from the hits from the relic.

kaotkbliss wrote:
That's what I figured
But rereading the rule multiple times, it sounds like the enemy models are already hit by the relic before the solitaire dies and so does not need to be in play to resolve the wounds from the hits from the relic.

They are absolutely hit by it, but by the time you go to apply the damage from the hits the relic is no longer in play. You are referencing an ability that no longer exists.

Right, but they've already taken the hit so it's still going to do damage.

I guess think of it like you're pointing a gun at someone who is pointing a bow at you. You both fire. Your bullet reaches him before his arrow reaches you. He dies, but his arrow is still going to hit you.

kaotkbliss wrote:
Right, but they've already taken the hit so it's still going to do damage.

I guess think of it like you're pointing a gun at someone who is pointing a bow at you. You both fire. Your bullet reaches him before his arrow reaches you. He dies, but his arrow is still going to hit you.

Yeah I totally get the RAI argument and support it, but RAW I am still not sure you can use a relic on a model that is no longer in play. You are hit by it, but by the time you go to apply the wounds you have no reason to apply wounds. At that point in the game there is no ability that calls for you to apply wounds to yourself.

I see that side too as it's like a mob attacking a mob. One side rolls all it's attacks for all it's models, then the other side rolls it's attacks for the models it has left, not the total amount it started with.

kaotkbliss wrote:
That's what I figured
But rereading the rule multiple times, it sounds like the enemy models are already hit by the relic before the solitaire dies and so does not need to be in play to resolve the wounds from the hits from the relic.

I have to say you are reading it wrong:

"Roll a D6 each time a hit roll of 1 is made for an enemy Model targeting the wearer in the Fight Phase. On a 2+ , that models unit suffers a mortal wounds after the unit has resolved All of it's attacks."

What does this mean?
1. The attacker makes his attack rolls.
2. A d6 is rolled for each attack roll of 1. Count up the number of 2+. The unit is now assigned that number of Mortal Wounds, but does not suffer them until after it resolves it attacks.
3. The attacks are resolved.
4. The Mortal Wounds are delivered.

It is not necessary for the Relic to be in play after step 2. The damage is assigned to the unit at that point, but resolving it's effect is delayed.

 alextroy wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
That's what I figured
But rereading the rule multiple times, it sounds like the enemy models are already hit by the relic before the solitaire dies and so does not need to be in play to resolve the wounds from the hits from the relic.

I have to say you are reading it wrong:

"Roll a D6 each time a hit roll of 1 is made for an enemy Model targeting the wearer in the Fight Phase. On a 2+ , that models unit suffers a mortal wounds after the unit has resolved All of it's attacks."

What does this mean?
1. The attacker makes his attack rolls.
2. A d6 is rolled for each attack roll of 1. Count up the number of 2+. The unit is now assigned that number of Mortal Wounds, but does not suffer them until after it resolves it attacks.
3. The attacks are resolved.
4. The Mortal Wounds are delivered.

It is not necessary for the Relic to be in play after step 2. The damage is assigned to the unit at that point, but resolving it's effect is delayed.

You make a good point, the rules for fast rolling don't care "if it would make a difference" (my bad!), it only cares that "all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit."

So yeah, the Tyranid Player can fast roll his attacks, and even though he might trigger enough mortal wounds to wipe the squad, it doesn't matter because the rolls to wound still happen, even though the mortal wounds could kill the squad. However, the Tyranid Player is better off rolling his attacks one model at a time because he might kill the Solitaire without needing all his attacks, thus lowering the number of mortal wounds he might take.

Agreed, can die and still give the mortal wounds I reckon. It seems to read as alextroy posted above

 BaconCatBug wrote:
However, the Tyranid Player is better off rolling his attacks one model at a time because he might kill the Solitaire without needing all his attacks, thus lowering the number of mortal wounds he might take.

Don't you need to resolve all the attacks you declare even if the target dies though? Say you fire three overcharged Plasma guns, and the target dies after two guns have fired, you'd still need to do the hit rolls for the third gun to see if any 1s are rolled. This would apply for the Genestealers' attacks against the Solitaire, where all declared attacks into the Solitaire would be resolved even if the Solitaire dies before all attacks are done.

The Plasma example would be relevant to the Genestealers due to page 183 in the BRB: "The attack sequence for making close combat attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks (pg 181) except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls".

Page 179: "In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next".

I bolded the part where it says "shooting unit" to further clarify that this applies on a unit basis and not on a model basis.

You don’t roll to hit for guns if the unit has already been killed by earlier shooting, though.

I'd love to see your reasoning behind that, though. My reading of the rule is that you must resolve all shots that a unit fire, whether you roll them one by one or all at once. So any model declared to shoot, must shoot no matter if the target unit has died from earlier shooting. Now, for the vast majority of time this obviously doesn't matter so there's no need to roll, but for overcharged Plasma and certain other things it would matter.

It's another one of those situations GW didn't bother to write the rules correctly for, nor grant us a Special Snowflake FAQ from on-high like the dirty ungrateful peasants we are.