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Made in pl
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Everything in 40k has a value relative to the opportunity cost of taking something else. I'm wondering how many points people would pay to take a CP if it was required to be paid for out of your points allowance.

This might help us decide whether or not to use a CP at given points in the game - e.g. is my unit worth saving with this stratagem, or 'do the mortal wounds this stratagem causes justify the CP expended'

I imagine that CP are less valuable to armies like pure guard as they have tons of them, good regeneration and few strong stratagems, but really valuable for an army like knights or custodes with few CP and great strats

Most people would pay a CP for D3 mortal wounds on, say a unit of dark reapers, but not on a unit if guardsmen. So we can safely say they'd be worth between 8pts and 60pts in value!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 23:14:09


Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I have thought about this question several times, actually. I think there are several different ways to think about it,

1) Cost to earn: At its most basic you could imagine how much to earn a CP. You could assume that whatever detachment has 0 value for the units in it and then go from there. The guard battalion is the easiest and obvious. ~180 pts buys 5 CP's + the two reroll traits/relics, which are usually worth ~6 more =11 CP's /180 points or ~23 points per CP just as a purchase. This is clearly a good purchase, bought in many many imperial armies. Indeed, I think it might be purchased EVEN IF the guardsmen have no value, although they clearly also are great as chaff. But it still gives us some insight. If we give them some value, we start seeing people willing to just straight buy CP's in guard battalion form as worth at least ~10 points. Since this is an obvious good pick instead of a marginal one so is most likely an underestimate. This gives us some idea of a lower bound, however. An interesting approach might be to look at the cheapest battalion in each faction and then see what a CP costs there.

2) How much would you be willing to spend in list creation for +1 CP?. Here, I mean substituting towards a slightly weaker army to earn more CP. The strongest armies of course, don't have to pay much tax for it, but for many, you have to build in slightly less effective troop choices or unnecessary HQ's to get more CP's. Here I'm talking about lists like Eldar/DE, where the troops don't do much, or necrons, with expensive troops. Here my answer is much more just from personal observation. I'm typically willing to consider upgrading a spearhead, outrider or vanguard to a battalion if the upgrade will cost less than ~150 points, putting my value for the CP's at ~ 37.5 points, again assuming those are troops or HQ's I don't really want. Obviously the troops have some value, so this is likely an overestimate of the value of a CP.

3) Value of use: You give a good example of CP for d3 mortal wounds on dark reapers but not guardians. That would be a reasonable place to look for where we spend CP's. Similarly, people will often try to reroll a d6 damage result to get the last wound off a valuable vehicle. If we pick a marginal situation (where many but not quite all would spend the CP), we might gain some insight. How about a Rhino on a small number of wounds left with the last lascannon you have, rerolling a d6? a living rhino has almost full value, protecting the squad inside since its guns are weak. If we take the Rhino to be fairly costed (Which is a major assumption). we would say

2 W left= 5/6 * 70pts= 58 points. I think most people would spend a CP on that.
3 W left= 4/6 * 70 pts = 46 pts. I think most would still spend for the reroll
4 W= 3/6*70-35 points.
5 w= 2/6 *70= 23 points. I think this is about where people start considering whether to reroll.
6W = 1/6 *70= 11 points. Probably not many takers.

So somewhere at about 23 points, based on the rhino example, I think, in this scenario. We could work it through in several other scenarios as well. I think this is the most robust of my answers.

4) The hard cap: Most of the strongest lists I see built from some armies (imperial or chaos soup for example), use such efficient HQ's and troops that they run out of detachments before they run out of troops or HQ's that are independently valuable. I'm talking about guard battalions, smashcaptain+scouts, Demon princes+nurglings, abaddon or ahriman+cultists etc. Here, some lists are routinely earning 18 CP's without much 'tax'. (3 battalions+battle forged). Under this assumption, your CP's are not really limited by a points constraints but remain a finite resource. Not really helpful in answering the question, but you still end up with a number like 1 CP per 111 points. Clearly an overestimate.

5) the bargin method: Ask players how many points they would pay to have an extra CP? Here, ther obvious feature is that the value of the first CP is much much greater than the 15th or 20th. That first will be on the single most important strategem in the entire game. The 2nd, hopefully, on the 2nd most, and so on. The 15th reroll is much less valuable than the first. I think I'd usually be willing to give up ~15 points for 1 more CP in many lists, the last marginal one that I can't squeeze in any other way. This is more subjective and personal though. It also depends on how strong your stratagems are for your army (the rhino example, sort of).

So putting it all together? I think the first is worth on the order of 25-30 points and the ~12th more on the order of 10-12 points.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





TN/AL/MS state line.

As for Tyranids using cheapest Detachments and dividing by the amount of CP they provide you get between 30-50pts per CP(if you count the 3 for battleforged or not). For my personal opinion that’d sound pretty high me if we had to pay points for CP. To get my normal amount of CP(8ish for 1500pt games) I’d be spending 240-400points. That’s a tyrannofex or two worth of models- I just don’t see the see the benefit for strategems over losing that much board presence.

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Made in gb
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755239.page I made a list
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I don't think that's quite the way to think about it, since the first 5 or so are basically free for everyone. Every gets 3 and probably at least 2 more for assorted detachments that you have to take anyway. I would think about it as only spending those 30 points per Cp for numbers 5 through 8 or so. the. you are thinking of maybe 200 pts spent on cps which seems plausible.

Also, since they aren't truly purchased in the same way as models, you could think about them existing under a higher point cap. Imagine a 1700 point list where you have 1500 worth of value in models and 200 of value in command points or something to that effect.

The question of the value of them doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay for them although that's one way to think about it.

Also, I think more like 20 to 25 pts is the correct value.
   
 
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