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This happened in my home country, and in the same region as i'v living in...

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/07/after-ten-days-trapped-in-a-cave-in-thailand-a-difficult-rescue-lies-ahead/564407/

After ten days of missing, trapped in a rain-filled cave in Chiangrai Thailand. Thirteens, (12 teenage footballers and an accompanying coach) were found by a team of british professional adventurers.

Yet, heavy rains in rainy season and in a creek-tribunary hill (The cave itself named "Tam Khun Nam Nang Naun" (Nang Naun Creek Tribunary Cave) complicated things further.... how to get them out alive

Three methods are proposed.
1. Crash-course scuba dive train those to be rescued.... this will be done by RTN SEAL team to train them and escort them out dive alive. underwater
2. Excavations
3. Supply the trapped for 4-5 months (entire season) or until the cave is dry enough to evacuate.

One interesting fact is that Japanese news coverage did make a diorama to explain the entire situations and possible rescue operations to use. I don't know if any other news agency make uses of dioramas in any previous grand scale rescue operations like this one? Did they also make dioramas for Chilean Mine rescue operations?

https://www.facebook.com/happyarthy/posts/10160554945900608

I was reading up on this, and such an amazing story.

I really hope these poor kids get out alright. I cannot imagine those 10 days they were sitting there in the dark, starving, not know what was going to happen. It had to have been such the greatest feeling when they were found.

Let us have hope they all make it out. Trying to get them out via diving sounds terribly dangerous.

I am surprised they gave not gone the Chile option and started drilling a shaft to them.

 Frazzled wrote:
Let us have hope they all make it out. Trying to get them out via diving sounds terribly dangerous.

I am surprised they gave not gone the Chile option and started drilling a shaft to them.

They're looking at that option, but it's a time concern. They had .6 miles to drill through, and they had significant concerns about heavy rain this week that would force their hand on the diving option.

 djones520 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Let us have hope they all make it out. Trying to get them out via diving sounds terribly dangerous.

I am surprised they gave not gone the Chile option and started drilling a shaft to them.

They're looking at that option, but it's a time concern. They had .6 miles to drill through, and they had significant concerns about heavy rain this week that would force their hand on the diving option.

Probiem with mining is finding safe spot. The area the kids are is very small. Wouldn't want kids get crushed.


They are now also trying to find alternative route as kids reported animal and human sounds.

Personally, I'd go for the diving option. It really, really can't be that hard to strap a mask to your face, and breath.

Tie off to each other, let someone professional (like the Seal team members) lead them out and ta-daa! Magic rescue time.

I would be terrified of someone trying to drill / excavate me out. I've worked around those machines and the thought of being anywhere near the business end gives me the heebie-jeebies.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Personally, I'd go for the diving option. It really, really can't be that hard to strap a mask to your face, and breath.

Tie off to each other, let someone professional (like the Seal team members) lead them out and ta-daa! Magic rescue time.

I would be terrified of someone trying to drill / excavate me out. I've worked around those machines and the thought of being anywhere near the business end gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Not as easy as it sounds. If kids panic...drowned on arrival. That route is seemingly tough even for experts and these kids have zero diving experience. Maybe(memory fails) not even able to swim.

Safest option is probably wait...

Though if diving chosen soon would be good. Now part of route is clear of water so part route can be walked

Hope all ends well, glad they're ok, definitely cannot imagine being stuck in that circumstance.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Personally, I'd go for the diving option. It really, really can't be that hard to strap a mask to your face, and breath.

Tie off to each other, let someone professional (like the Seal team members) lead them out and ta-daa! Magic rescue time.

I would be terrified of someone trying to drill / excavate me out. I've worked around those machines and the thought of being anywhere near the business end gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Yeah, the SEAL's were saying it was a very tough, dangerous dive, and you don't get more expert on that type of thing then SEAL's. There is no great option here.

They can't swim, and some of the caves are so narrow they'd have to take their air tank off and push it in front of them.

More from the BBC

I'd take the Seal team's advice, of course. I'm imagining taking a rope from the exit, bring it to the trapped, and then putting them in scuba gear and following the rope to safety. I'm sure it's harder than that... but I'd want out ASAP and that seems like a "We could do it today" kind of option.

 djones520 wrote:
Yeah, the SEAL's were saying it was a very tough, dangerous dive, and you don't get more expert on that type of thing then SEAL's. There is no great option here.

And the RTN SEALs themselves called in international experts who had previously dived those caves before attempting it - the group that found them had a Brit in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


(From the BBC

 greatbigtree wrote:
I'd take the Seal team's advice, of course. I'm imagining taking a rope from the exit, bring it to the trapped, and then putting them in scuba gear and following the rope to safety. I'm sure it's harder than that... but I'd want out ASAP and that seems like a "We could do it today" kind of option.

It's not a we could do it today option. You don't teach kids diving in a day. And they are malnutrioned having been 10 days basically water diet. Not in a shape to try that. Now they are getting them food so they can get strenght back.

The SEALs are not experts on this. They may have dived in the caves but they are not international experts in cave rescue. The three guys from the BCRC are experts in cave rescue and have worked around the world. They seem to be the people who have done most of the work along with cave rescue experts from other countries.

With regards to the rescue, cave diving is dangerous at the best of times, and is only done by people who are both expert cavers and expert divers. They have to be skilled in both before combining them. Trying to get the kids out is incredibly difficult and dangerous. If one panics and gets stuck in one of those tight bits it’s not just them dead but anyone behind them could be stuck. The accounts are that the boys can’t even swim.

Yeah. Diving is dangerous, climbing around in caves is dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves is incredibly dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves while carrying someone who can't swim seems positively suicidal.
I can easily see why the experts are not entirely enthusiastic about this. Drilling a shaft down to a part of the cave that is closer to the boys may be safer.
Does anyone know where the water in the cave comes from? If it is an underground river they could possibly divert it to lower the water level again. That would be more difficult of course if the water comes down from the surface or wells up through porous rock.
Then again, there may not be time for all of that. Water levels could rise even further. Teaching the boys basic swimming and diving principles and then getting them out with the aid of experts may be the only option. I really hope they can get them out safely.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah. Diving is dangerous, climbing around in caves is dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves is incredibly dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves while carrying someone who can't swim seems positively suicidal.
I can easily see why the experts are not entirely enthusiastic about this. Drilling a shaft down to a part of the cave that is closer to the boys may be safer.
Does anyone know where the water in the cave comes from? If it is an underground river they could possibly divert it to lower the water level again. That would be more difficult of course if the water comes down from the surface or wells up through porous rock.
Then again, there may not be time for all of that. Water levels could rise even further. Teaching the boys basic swimming and diving principles and then getting them out with the aid of experts may be the only option.

Sounds like it's just drainage from surrounding areas, with the emphasis that they were putting on concerns about forecasted heavy rains.

Not to be a giant ass about this, but if they're tethered to a rope, they don't really need to know how to swim. If they have rocks and a bag, they can adjust their buoyancy to neutral, and just comfortably float. Pull yourself along the rope, and you're there.

Take them one at a time, or a pair. I get that caving is dangerous. I get that spelunking underwater is dangerous. But so is being stuck in a fething underwater cave until who knows when, hoping some donkey-cave doesn't punch a hole in your cave that suddenly causes a cave-in.

I acknowledge that this is my own bias here, but I'd be getting out of there as soon as I possibly could. I couldn't imagine being stuck underground in the dark, waiting for the water to rise up and drown me. I would be getting out of that place pronto. I'm twitchy just thinking about it! I'd be fighting with someone to give me their tank... and I'd probably die trying to get out. But feth me I wouldn't stay in that hole.

 djones520 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah. Diving is dangerous, climbing around in caves is dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves is incredibly dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves while carrying someone who can't swim seems positively suicidal.
I can easily see why the experts are not entirely enthusiastic about this. Drilling a shaft down to a part of the cave that is closer to the boys may be safer.
Does anyone know where the water in the cave comes from? If it is an underground river they could possibly divert it to lower the water level again. That would be more difficult of course if the water comes down from the surface or wells up through porous rock.
Then again, there may not be time for all of that. Water levels could rise even further. Teaching the boys basic swimming and diving principles and then getting them out with the aid of experts may be the only option.

Sounds like it's just drainage from surrounding areas, with the emphasis that they were putting on concerns about forecasted heavy rains.

Yeah, most water in caves is drainage, but the way it gets into the cave is important. If there is a river, the rainwater will make it swell in size, flooding the cave. If the rock is porous, the rainwater will seep through, also flooding the cave. In the first case, to drain the cave of water you need to block the river from streaming into it. In the second case, you could just pump the water out, but you'd have to do so again after every rain shower.
After reading some more, it appears that it is indeed being fed by underground streams. There is talk of a strong current coming from deeper within the cave, which indicates water is streaming in from somewhere. Also, Lone Cat's translation of the name suggests that it is part of a river system. They are in fact already busy blocking as many entrances for the water as they can (as well as pumping out the water that is already in). They are also looking for more entrances in the jungle above the cave. But given that a big rain storm is approaching, it is looking like they won't have enough time to get the cave dry enough again for the boys to crawl out. So currently it looks like they are going to try to get the kids out by diving before the whole thing gets flooded in the coming storm.

Best of luck to them. No good options, just the least bad I guess.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Not to be a giant ass about this, but if they're tethered to a rope, they don't really need to know how to swim. If they have rocks and a bag, they can adjust their buoyancy to neutral, and just comfortably float. Pull yourself along the rope, and you're there.

Take them one at a time, or a pair. I get that caving is dangerous. I get that spelunking underwater is dangerous. But so is being stuck in a fething underwater cave until who knows when, hoping some donkey-cave doesn't punch a hole in your cave that suddenly causes a cave-in.

I acknowledge that this is my own bias here, but I'd be getting out of there as soon as I possibly could. I couldn't imagine being stuck underground in the dark, waiting for the water to rise up and drown me. I would be getting out of that place pronto. I'm twitchy just thinking about it! I'd be fighting with someone to give me their tank... and I'd probably die trying to get out. But feth me I wouldn't stay in that hole.

You realize you are claiming it's easy when experts are claiming it's not as easy? And that there's real danger of kids dying if they go for that route. So could you tell exactly what credentials you have to tell it's easy?

They would have to take out their air canisters and push those ahead. Under water. That's not easy.

Now maybe they have to do if water levels start to rise. No doubt they will start training boys for that as soon as they are physically restored to level where it's possible. But it's not easy and safe just like that so they are likely going to consider and try other options. Like that possible second route since kids reports hearing animal and human sounds so it's possible other routes exists.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying its a better chance for survival than staying put. I'm saying that trying to bore a hole to a space the size of a living room, from nearly a kilometer above, is almost impossible.

I don't know much about scuba, but I do know a bit about drilling and mining. Imagine dropping a dart from the tallest skyscraper, and trying to hit a specifi car. Except you're in a dense fog, and can't see the car.

That's what hitting that pocket would be like. Even the slightest mistake and you miss. And you have to get down there before they drown. You don't just blow a hole 800 m down overnight. And it can't collapse. You can't collapse what's underneath.

What happens if you hit a waterway, on the way down? Sorry kids, speed drowning!

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that would be my preference.

The kids could likely be taught basic scuba in a day, but cave diving takes a lot of experience and practice. If the kids were tethered and buddied with a rescuer each, using a 7ft hose (rescuer carries tank) and full face mask, all it would take is a touch of panic and the rescuer would have little chance at assisting while the kid drowned in their arms. Granted, the kids made it in, so they likely are not too claustrophobic, but many people are VERY uncomfortable underwater and there is no safe environment for them to practice in.
Diving out is a possibility, but not a great one.
If I was responsible for the kids, there's no chance I'd suggest diving out.
Edit: Even with thousands of dives under my belt, I'd be very hesitant to try it myself.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying its a better chance for survival than staying put. I'm saying that trying to bore a hole to a space the size of a living room, from nearly a kilometer above, is almost impossible.

I don't know much about scuba, but I do know a bit about drilling and mining. Imagine dropping a dart from the tallest skyscraper, and trying to hit a specifi car. Except you're in a dense fog, and can't see the car.

That's what hitting that pocket would be like. Even the slightest mistake and you miss. And you have to get down there before they drown. You don't just blow a hole 800 m down overnight. And it can't collapse. You can't collapse what's underneath.

What happens if you hit a waterway, on the way down? Sorry kids, speed drowning!

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that would be my preference.

I do know a bit (but not a lot) about cave diving. My dad did a bit. I know enough to know that it is very dangerous. We are not talking about film type “it’s a million to one chance but worth a shot”. It is properly dangerous. Staying put means they have to wait 4 months to get out when the rains subside. They would not make it out diving. The three guys from the UK are exprinced cave rescue people who do cave diving and cave diving rescue. They are very fit, very exprinced and very skilled. Those three are some of the best in the world, have done cave rescues all over the world and apparently are asked for by name to help in complex rescues. They said it was almost impossible. I believe them. The best (probably only) chance of getting them out in less than 4 months is finding another way out, which they are looking for. They have claimed to have heard voices and animal noises, but that could be hallucinations from lack of food and darkness.

I think we're both afraid of the devil we know.

I would not ever want to be underground, underwater, period. For damned sure not while someone was drilling or excavating above me. I'd rather take the chance with a devil I don't know, in that case, which for me is diving out.

If anyone here has the idea that drilling and or blasting their way down is in someway "safe" it is not. I don't dispute the danger of diving, but the ground there is apt to be soft, if not saturated. A cave-in is almost certain in that kind of situation.

You wouldn't have a way to keep the walls from collapsing as you dig / drill. When you get close to the "bottom" you have no real way of knowing. You drill into that pocket, and all the slop that's at the bottom of the hole suddenly fills that cavity. You're crushed / drowned in mud. That's a very real possibility too.


The problem is, there's no guarantee they won't be flooded out in 1 month. Or 1 week. Or tomorrow. A sudden increase in groundwater and they could drown anyway. I'm really not saying it's a good option. I'm saying it's better than drowning, or being crushed when a rescue attempt collapses. I could not wait for months in a cave. I just couldn't do it.


I'd bet all solutions being considered have been told, "This is a bad idea, think of something else." Waiting is dangerous. Diving is dangerous. Digging is dangerous. I'm not ignoring the advice of the Divers, but I'm also considering the (presumed advice) of the other options.

Talinsin wrote:
The kids could likely be taught basic scuba in a day, but cave diving takes a lot of experience and practice. If the kids were tethered and buddied with a rescuer each, using a 7ft hose (rescuer carries tank) and full face mask, all it would take is a touch of panic and the rescuer would have little chance at assisting while the kid drowned in their arms. Granted, the kids made it in, so they likely are not too claustrophobic, but many people are VERY uncomfortable underwater and there is no safe environment for them to practice in.
Diving out is a possibility, but not a great one.
If I was responsible for the kids, there's no chance I'd suggest diving out.
Edit: Even with thousands of dives under my belt, I'd be very hesitant to try it myself.

They would probably panic in one of the tight points, not only dieing but blocking the cave and possibly treaping the person they are with.

Lifeguards can die from someone panicking above water. I’ve been around people being rescued inside a structure on fire, and their panic almost killed the firefighters.

Hell, I’ve done plenty of buddy breathing excercises wearing SCBA. In those excercises someone turns of the bottle you are wearing, then you have to wait until your low air alarm goes off, and once your line is empty and that mask sucks to your face instead of giving you air you have to try and pull out your emergency connection and plug it into the SCBA on the back of the guy in front of you. I’ve seen grown and experienced men panic and rip that mask off.

I’ve never done underwater rescue, all my work has been in dark smoke filled buildings, trying to navigate small spaces and making it through wall studs by taking off my SCBA and trying to keep it connected to my mask without exposing myself to fire.

The danger of panic is real, and it’s a great threat.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think we're both afraid of the devil we know.

I would not ever want to be underground, underwater, period. For damned sure not while someone was drilling or excavating above me. I'd rather take the chance with a devil I don't know, in that case, which for me is diving out.

If anyone here has the idea that drilling and or blasting their way down is in someway "safe" it is not. I don't dispute the danger of diving, but the ground there is apt to be soft, if not saturated. A cave-in is almost certain in that kind of situation.

You wouldn't have a way to keep the walls from collapsing as you dig / drill. When you get close to the "bottom" you have no real way of knowing. You drill into that pocket, and all the slop that's at the bottom of the hole suddenly fills that cavity. You're crushed / drowned in mud. That's a very real possibility too.

The problem is, there's no guarantee they won't be flooded out in 1 month. Or 1 week. Or tomorrow. A sudden increase in groundwater and they could drown anyway. I'm really not saying it's a good option. I'm saying it's better than drowning, or being crushed when a rescue attempt collapses. I could not wait for months in a cave. I just couldn't do it.


I'd bet all solutions being considered have been told, "This is a bad idea, think of something else." Waiting is dangerous. Diving is dangerous. Digging is dangerous. I'm not ignoring the advice of the Divers, but I'm also considering the (presumed advice) of the other options.

You never want to rush a rescue like this. Especially if the rescue is much more dangerous than staying put and waiting it out. Is it awful they will be stuck down there longer? Absolutely. These poor kids are going through an awful ordeal. Is it better to risk the lives of the children and rescuers, putting even more people in danger, just to get them out quicker? Feth no that is stupid. You never rush in to a situation like this. You do not want to add more people to the list of people being rescued.

Sit back. Take a deep breath. You are freaking out. Let the experts do the things the experts were trained to do. Nobody rushes in like a cowboy in situations like this. That is how you felt up.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think we're both afraid of the devil we know.

I would not ever want to be underground, underwater, period. For damned sure not while someone was drilling or excavating above me. I'd rather take the chance with a devil I don't know, in that case, which for me is diving out.

If anyone here has the idea that drilling and or blasting their way down is in someway "safe" it is not. I don't dispute the danger of diving, but the ground there is apt to be soft, if not saturated. A cave-in is almost certain in that kind of situation.

You wouldn't have a way to keep the walls from collapsing as you dig / drill. When you get close to the "bottom" you have no real way of knowing. You drill into that pocket, and all the slop that's at the bottom of the hole suddenly fills that cavity. You're crushed / drowned in mud. That's a very real possibility too.

The problem is, there's no guarantee they won't be flooded out in 1 month. Or 1 week. Or tomorrow. A sudden increase in groundwater and they could drown anyway. I'm really not saying it's a good option. I'm saying it's better than drowning, or being crushed when a rescue attempt collapses. I could not wait for months in a cave. I just couldn't do it.


I'd bet all solutions being considered have been told, "This is a bad idea, think of something else." Waiting is dangerous. Diving is dangerous. Digging is dangerous. I'm not ignoring the advice of the Divers, but I'm also considering the (presumed advice) of the other options.

You never want to rush a rescue like this. Especially if the rescue is much more dangerous than staying put and waiting it out. Is it awful they will be stuck down there longer? Absolutely. These poor kids are going through an awful ordeal. Is it better to risk the lives of the children and rescuers, putting even more people in danger, just to get them out quicker? Feth no that is stupid. You never rush in to a situation like this. You do not want to add more people to the list of people being rescued.

Sit back. Take a deep breath. You are freaking out. Let the experts do the things the experts were trained to do. Nobody rushes in like a cowboy in situations like this. That is how you felt up.

The problem is that they may have to rush it because the cave is at risk of flooding entirely when more rain storms come.

Couldn't they pump the water out somehow? Drilling worked in Chile but isn't it a lot farther and not mapped well enough so it's easy to miss? Or could they drill horizontally and make a tunnel that's above the water line?

 Necros wrote:
Couldn't they pump the water out somehow? Drilling worked in Chile but isn't it a lot farther and not mapped well enough so it's easy to miss? Or could they drill horizontally and make a tunnel that's above the water line?

They're currently doing just that - "About 128 million litres of water had been pumped out by Thursday, with the water levels coming down at an average rate of 1.5cm per hour. Rescue workers are now able to walk through a 1.5km (0.9 mile) stretch from the entrance to what's being called the third chamber." (BBC)