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So I will be back in my home country for a few weeks soon and I've noticed a local 500pt tournament that has piqued my interest.
It is a 3 rounder on 4' by 4' tables and allows 0-1 HQ, 0-6 Troops and 0-2 of Elites, FA and HS each. There are 2 objectives set up in no-man's land. This force org means a maximum of 3 CP (unless taking someone like Creed).
The non compulsory HQ is a boon for BA as it allows a lot more points to play with.
A side note - I haven't played a 500pt game for years so any advice at this limit would be appreciated.

Here are the two lists I have come up with so far:

Option A
Imperial Guard Cadian Regiment
Company Commander
Bolter

Platoon Commander
Bolter

Special Weapons Squad
3 plasma guns

Infantry Squad
Lascannon, Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad
Lascannon, Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad
Lascannon, Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad
Flamer

Infantry Squad
Flamer

Heavy Weapons Squad
3 Autocannons

Heavy Weapons Squad
3 Autocannons

500pts

Option B
Blood Angels

5 Death Company with Jump packs
1 power sword

5 Death Company with Jump packs
1 power sword

5 Scouts
Combat knives and Power sword

5 Scouts
Combat knives and Power sword

5 Scouts
Bolters and Storm Bolter

5 Assault Marines with Jump Packs
2 Plasma guns, Plasma pistol, Power sword

500pts

The Guard list massively outnumbers and outguns the BA list but is not very mobile, hence the 2 flamer Infantry Squads for some Move, Move, Move towards objectives without wasting heavy weapons. The BA list will be in the opponents face from the get go but has 30 bodies compared to the Guards 61 and far less specials and no heavies. Taking down vehicles shouldn't be an issue for either list, the Guard has the guns whilst the BA have the +1 to wound on the charge with lots of powersword attacks.

Which list would you go for? And are there any improvements you would make?

I am curious, why are you running
A) Lascannons at such a low pts wise tournament, do you expect a lot of Heavy Tanks (Lemans, Land Raiders,etc)?
B) Autocannon Teams instead of Mortars as HWT?

Wouldn't overall on that point level Autocannons for the Squads be a better option?

Thanks for the reply.

I am not hugely experienced with 500pt games, usually playing somewhere between 1k and 2k points, I included the 3 Lascannons in case I did encounter even light vehicles or MCs. Do they tend to be rare at 500pts? The extra strength and ap difference over an Autocannon, albeit at 1 shot less, is worth the 8pts in larger games.

As to the HWSs, mortars have to be one of the most point efficient units for their firepower in the game, unfortunately, I do not own any mortar teams to use. My Cadians are painted light blue as well, so it is usually difficult to find quick ebay purchases to slip into the force.

I take it by your reply that you prefer the Guard list?

The main problem i see, when i take my renegades out for a spin, is that lascanon = 1 shot.
Autocannons are 12pts, vomit out 2 shots, making them atelast hit once per shooting phase on a guard body. Light vehicles are more common in low point matches, albeit there could be the ocasional clown that brings a knight, or a super heavy thing.
Also Dark Eldar atm are a thing and they react allergic torwards autocannons.
Also a visible HWT squad is a dead HWT squad, no matter if R&H or IG, and IG ones are more expensive then the cheaper R&H ones, so i really reccomend you mortars for those.
Additionally mortars are really good for 5 pts a piece.
I gave you more on the IG list because i play mainly R&H, which basically are traitor guardsmen, therefore i feel better in that scenario, respectively can give you better insight there.

Aye I'm also a R&H player but feel the army has been reduced from one of the most points efficient forces in 7th to one of the worst in 8th. The loss of militia training was HUGE to my play style with them. I have only played 2 games with them in 8th and can't get them to work at all.
The thing about Lascannons with Cadians is that they have a bs4+ rerolling 1s and also have the option of full rerolls with orders, and a strategem that can give +1 to hit (plus relics and WL traits that can help on rerolls to wound) making a Cadian Lascannon far superior to a standard Guard Lascannon, let alone a R&H Lascannon.
What Id been doing with my Guard HWSs was plonking a sideways Chimera in front of them and moving it 1st turn if I didn't get it to ensure at least 1 round of shooting with them, but as you say, they are insanely fragile for their points! And there is no way I could do this at 500pts. Thats why I was taking 2 and the spec weapons squad - thinking the opponent couldn't deal with all of them quickly at range in a 500pt battle.
I don't play at the Gaming Store where this tournament is held so have no idea of the meta, but DE, bikes, Primaris and other 2 wound/light vehicle armies might indeed be a thing there for an oppertunity with Autocannons.
I could invest in some mortars and assemble and paint them in time I suppose.
How about a list like the following:

Company Commander
Bolter

Platoon Commander
Shotgun

Special Weapons Squad
3 Plasma guns

Infantry Squad
Lascannon and Plasma gun

Infantry Squad
Autocannon and plasma gun

Infantry Squad
Autocannon and plasma gun

Infantry Squad
Autocannon and plasma gun

Infantry Squad
Flamer

Infantry Squad
Flamer

Heavy Weapons Squad
3 Mortars

Heavy Weapons Squad
3 Mortars

500pts

Well actually the only real unit that got worse overall is the militia.
Respectively the lack of militia training. (altough there is still a way to make them viable, and it's called playing 2+ command disciples squads with command voxes. Turns out ld 9 for 20 man blobs with a chaos sigil really makes them durable morale wise for 90 pts) Since we anyways need to run command squads after the "rule of three" command voxes are comparatively a small investment. Also there are still militia HWT's at 3 pts. base, making the most effective mortar unit in the game. (albeit i recently did test a 6 HWT stubber squad, lead to some amazing ww1 style battles)

We got stumped in regards to our special rules and abilities, but Disciples are better then ever, Tanks come base bs4+, Marauders are freaking gods for 6ppm, Berserker Ogryins got extremely cheaper and can do massive damage, we still have the unnerved enforcers to play with, in conjunction with the big blob of mutants.

What really hurts us atm is the lack off stratagems, warlod traits, the nerfed Malefic lord, some fluffy units like big mutants, no synergy with CSM/ Daemon adn finally no direct acess to daemon engines. IN 7th we did count as CSM, meaning that our abilities actievly effected other stuff, nowadays, let's just say the lack of Auras, and the removal off warlord traits really is the main problem.
Granted Covenants went to gak really:


Tzeentch: still the best but only overwatchis affected.
Khorne: can be extremely usefull if you blob enough or run disciples with shotguns and champions with Energy weapons.

Nurgle: Atm not existing
Slaanesh: Atm not existing.

The list loooks fine, I think, altough the flamers could be shaved off, still to expensive for what they can do and FRFSRF still does more statistical damage in bullet form without restriction on 8".




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did discover that lower pts are better for R&H, because nobody really can generate as much CP and use it for other elite armies.
Also our Elites can be taken basically as troops in those small matches and most of them are viable in melee and shooting.
Covenants are in such cases fine, most of the time, well except the nurgle one.
after 1000pts we really seem to drop off strength wise, that is when stuff requires huge ammount of stratagems comes into play, aswell the better faction traits.

I used to play with a large militia and HWS and artillery backbone supporting multiple Spawn units and Giant Spawn that would assault the opponent and grab objectives, so the entire backbone of my force got completely nerfed. Giant Spawn and Spawn are still alright but nowhere near the levels of power they held before. Whereas my gunline now can't hit a target from 10 yards away, especially with the artillery now that blasts and barrage are no longer a thing, whilst the HWSs are barely cheaper than guard for 50% less firepower (even less compared to Cadians).
Unfortunately aside from Disciples/Command Squads, all the units you mentioned that make R&H successful in 8th aren't the units I have and investing in them whilst leaving what I already have on the shelf means I may as well just start another army.

Don't get me wrong, I think 8th is far superior to 7th and has benefited 3 of my 5 armies massively, but it's totally boned my R&H with the build I collected and played. Huge body+gun count gunline with fast spawn support just doesnt work in 8th without militia training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aye Ive not played them at low points level so maybe you are right about being better at low points. Unfortunately Ive left all my Imperial Armour indexes back in Shanghai over summer and so can't use them to find out in this tournament as it is in England.

Na, we are way cheaper compared to guard in regards to HWS.
Don't forget that A) we still shoot 2/3rds of average guardsmen and B) are 2/5ths cheaper then a Guard HWS. C) Still 6 HWT per squad is also a huge boon.

Like i said, militia needs to be run with Voxes and Chaos sigils.
90 pts for a 20 man squad that literally can ignore morale.
They don't need to kill, they need to saturate.

I'd reccomend you this in a 1000pts match
2 x 10 command disciples, command vox, plasmagun, autocannon 140pts.

6x 20 militia vox chaos sigil 540

2 renegade commanders 50 pts. warlord with the basic trait of the LD aura.
730 pts total
basic Leman russes, earthshakers etc,after your gusto
i would however avoid any match with more then 1000 pts involved.

Thanks for the advice.

One thing I really miss from the 7th ed days was my bunker of doom, which had a Bunker with An ammo dump and a quad cannon manned by a mutant overlord who had a good chance of (7th ed) BS5, 6 heavy weapons teams with 4 Lascannons and 2 Autocannons with militia training and everyone with cov of tzeentch. It used to put out 4 Lascannon shots and 4 Autocannon shots hitting non flyers on a 4+ and flyers on a 5+ (rerolling 1s) followed by 4 further twinlinked Autocannon shots hitting flyers on a 2+ and non flyers on a 5+ with rerolls to hit. If I was feeling it I would replace the 2 Autocannons with 2 more Lascannons. It was the boss! But Forts are not what they were either now.

When I get a chance I'll try out what you suggest.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Thanks for the advice.

One thing I really miss from the 7th ed days was my bunker of doom, which had a Bunker with An ammo dump and a quad cannon manned by a mutant overlord who had a good chance of (7th ed) BS5, 6 heavy weapons teams with 4 Lascannons and 2 Autocannons with militia training and everyone with cov of tzeentch. It used to put out 4 Lascannon shots and 4 Autocannon shots hitting non flyers on a 4+ and flyers on a 5+ (rerolling 1s) followed by 4 further twinlinked Autocannon shots hitting flyers on a 2+ and non flyers on a 5+ with rerolls to hit. If I was feeling it I would replace the 2 Autocannons with 2 more Lascannons. It was the boss! But Forts are not what they were either now.

When I get a chance I'll try out what you suggest.

Atm it is either go full elite, or go full on soviet style wasting militia squads left right and center.
Also if you take the khorne covenant don't be afraid of advancing into rapid fire distance and then after you shot charge the enemy. The T4 neutralises the bad ws of the regular militia and the champion has a regular IG profile.
I miss my blody handed reaver and consequently the Renegade grenadiers. Now those were a troop choice you could get behind.

If you can have 0-2 elite units, why arent you bringing a DC dread ? Or a regular dread ? Or a librarian dread ?

At base cost a DC dread will account for 39.4% of the total points cost of the army. It has very limited mobility compared to JP Death Company and is sub optimal compared to them against anything that is not a vehicle or MC. Also at that point level it will be the only armour in the list and so can be foccussed out which is a big deal when it's almost 2/5ths of the points cost.
The idea of running 1W models is that the opponents big guns at best are only killing 20pt models until they get down to the powersword/plasma gun holders. Throwing big models in there takes that philosophy away. With only going for 1W models it means a BA army can field 30 bodies (more if I wasn't going for DC) in a 500pt game which is a large amount for a marine army. For just 11 pts more I can field 10 DC in 2 squads of 5 with a powersword in each squad. They will almost always do more damage than a DC dread.

You are forgetting going first. In low point games going first is a huge advantage. A unit with high point cost reduces your deployment count. Use DC first to take out the opponents heavy weapons and your dread becomes unkillable. The librarian dread can move 18" in one turn and gets the FLY keyword if you use wings of sanguinius. Its a T7 W8 psyker and cant be shot if other friendly units are closer, because its a character. If you fail to take out your opponents heavy weapons you can still hide the dread behind friendly units. With quickening and red rampage it can deliver 9 attacks, hitting on 2s, at S12 it will wound everything at 2s after charging, with red thirst, doing 3 damage for every inflicted wound.

 p5freak wrote:
You are forgetting going first. In low point games going first is a huge advantage. A unit with high point cost reduces your deployment count. Use DC first to take out the opponents heavy weapons and your dread becomes unkillable. The librarian dread can move 18" in one turn and gets the FLY keyword if you use wings of sanguinius. Its a T7 W8 psyker and cant be shot if other friendly units are closer, because its a character. If you fail to take out your opponents heavy weapons you can still hide the dread behind friendly units. With quickening and red rampage it can deliver 9 attacks, hitting on 2s, at S12 it will wound everything at 2s after charging, with red thirst, doing 3 damage for every inflicted wound.

So you would build your whole army on the premise that A) you get a turn 1 charge and B) that you highroll?
Also Dreads are vehicles, they should not per FAQ profit from cannonfodder infront of it?

Not Online!!! wrote:

So you would build your whole army on the premise that A) you get a turn 1 charge and B) that you highroll?

No, of course not. I will still hide the dread either out of LOS or behind friendly units, in case i dont get first turn.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also Dreads are vehicles, they should not per FAQ profit from cannonfodder infront of it?

The BA librarian dread is a CHARACTER with less than 10 wounds, the character protection rule applies. It doesnt matter if its a VEHICLE or not. Only that its a CHARACTER with less than 10 wounds.

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

So you would build your whole army on the premise that A) you get a turn 1 charge and B) that you highroll?

No, of course not. I will still hide the dread either out of LOS or behind friendly units, in case i dont get first turn.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also Dreads are vehicles, they should not per FAQ profit from cannonfodder infront of it?

The BA librarian dread is a CHARACTER with less than 10 wounds, the character protection rule applies. It doesnt matter if its a VEHICLE or not. Only that its a CHARACTER with less than 10 wounds.

I was merley questioning your reasoning, honestly i didn't know that you could do that with dreads, seems to me like that opens up a whole other level of abuse.
First turn atm is anyways skewed, moresoe then ever since shooting is extremly effective

Not Online!!! wrote:
I was merley questioning your reasoning, honestly i didn't know that you could do that with dreads, seems to me like that opens up a whole other level of abuse.
First turn atm is anyways skewed, moresoe then ever since shooting is extremly effective

Not every dread is a CHARACTER, the BA librarian and the FW chaplain dreads are the only ones i know of with less than 10 wounds. Also keep in mind that the +1 to iniative rolls only applies to chapter approved missions. If the tournament doesnt use that rule you will go first if you deploy first.

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I was merley questioning your reasoning, honestly i didn't know that you could do that with dreads, seems to me like that opens up a whole other level of abuse.
First turn atm is anyways skewed, moresoe then ever since shooting is extremly effective

Not every dread is a CHARACTER, the BA librarian and the FW chaplain dreads are the only ones i know of with less than 10 wounds. Also keep in mind that the +1 to iniative rolls only applies to chapter approved missions. If the tournament doesnt use that rule you will go first if you deploy first.

Indeed, i guess information on the TO and what their ruleset is should be also included before we make a list.