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Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

While traveling, I ran into a group of players using houserules for charges. Seemed strange at first, but made sense the more I thought about it.

Instead of a charge roll on 2d6, they rolled against leadership. A successful roll allowed units to make a charge at a distance up to twice their movement characteristic.

The guys told me this started with dissatisfaction over charge rules in general. They hated the idea you could do all this stuff to set up a melee unit for a charge only to roll snake eyes and get blown away the next turn. They wanted to reward dedicated melee units with a simpler mechanic that recognizes different units should handle charges differently.

I watched a couple games using these rules at 1000 points. World Eaters v Imperial Fists and Eldar v Tyranids. There were a few things I liked about it.

1) It made it easier to surround units and prevent fall-backs. I feel like melee units need a boost in general and this might be a good way to offset the natural advantages of shooting.

2) Leadership buffs from characters increase the likelihood of a charge going off. That just felt right.

3) It created a faux-tank-shock with Rhinos. They would disembark passengers, move, and tie up something else before the troops charged - but a lot more reliably.

4) It's simple and doesn't require fundamental changes to the game. It's the same dice roll, you just compare the result with a characteristic instead of a distance.

What I like most about it is the idea of a gut check before running across the battlefield. Some units would necessarily be better at doing this than others, but the current rules aren't built around psychology. It feels like, once you convince a group to go over the top, they are going to run wherever their legs will take them. Especially with Berzerkers, who don't care much about their personal safety.

My concern was this may not work well for all armies. Their gaming group includes Vanilla Marines, CSMs, Eldar and Tyranids. I thought this would work well for Orks, it might be very good for Eldar and might be very bad for Necrons.

My other concern was reliability, it makes some units very reliable. Part of the fun of charges is the fact they don't always work, and this affects how you play the game. This change flips the tables, now your changes of failing a 12 inch charge depend on the leadership value of the unit. I could make that charge almost 100% of the time with certain units.

What do you think?

   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




That rule might need a minimum charging distance of 9". Cataphractii Terminators can't charge after deepstriking that way bc they only have 4" of movement.

Apart from that, this rule should come with something to prevent units of 9 bikers to konga between all enemy units and bind them.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Trollbert wrote:
That rule might need a minimum charging distance of 9". Cataphractii Terminators can't charge after deepstriking that way bc they only have 4" of movement.

Apart from that, this rule should come with something to prevent units of 9 bikers to konga between all enemy units and bind them.


That's a good example of problems with charging in general.

What's stopping a conga line of bikers from charging multiple units right now? Is it just charge distance, or something else?

   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 techsoldaten wrote:
Trollbert wrote:
That rule might need a minimum charging distance of 9". Cataphractii Terminators can't charge after deepstriking that way bc they only have 4" of movement.

Apart from that, this rule should come with something to prevent units of 9 bikers to konga between all enemy units and bind them.


That's a good example of problems with charging in general.

What's stopping a conga line of bikers from charging multiple units right now? Is it just charge distance, or something else?


The maximum charging distance is 13" currently, plus heavily restricted 6" of pile in and consolidate.

With twice the movement characteristic as charging distance, bikes can freely move up to 28".
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Trollbert wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Trollbert wrote:
That rule might need a minimum charging distance of 9". Cataphractii Terminators can't charge after deepstriking that way bc they only have 4" of movement.

Apart from that, this rule should come with something to prevent units of 9 bikers to konga between all enemy units and bind them.


That's a good example of problems with charging in general.

What's stopping a conga line of bikers from charging multiple units right now? Is it just charge distance, or something else?


The maximum charging distance is 13" currently, plus heavily restricted 6" of pile in and consolidate.

With twice the movement characteristic as charging distance, bikes can freely move up to 28".


Good point. I asked because (right now) I sometimes take 6 bikers and charge 6 different units.

You're absolutely right, there would need to be some limit, 28 inches is too much.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Can't a flying Hive tyrant / daemon prince charge 32" . I know for sure the hive tyrant is 9"/16". Wings changes the profile. thats a guaranteed first turn charge, pretty sure thats not good for the game.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Interesting idea but this does allow Custodes Bikes to charge 28" across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote:
Can't a flying Hive tyrant / daemon prince charge 32" . I know for sure the hive tyrant is 9"/16". Wings changes the profile. thats a guaranteed first turn charge, pretty sure thats not good for the game.

My thoughts exactly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 15:10:52


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




The rule that you only may declare a charge at units within 12" of you still exists.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

mhalko1 wrote:
Can't a flying Hive tyrant / daemon prince charge 32" . I know for sure the hive tyrant is 9"/16". Wings changes the profile. thats a guaranteed first turn charge, pretty sure thats not good for the game.


I don't know the answer to that one. I saw a Hive Tyrant charge like 20 inches in one of those games, and it didn't seem unreasonable, but it was definitely different.

If we're basing our thoughts about charging on how far a human being could run in a few moments of time, sure, that's crazy.

If we're considering the idea that Xenos are a completely different species, that's different. I've seen horses charge cross an area the size of a football fields in a couple seconds. I think Tyranids could come up with the equivalent and it would not be too far fetched.

Another case I was considering was the Heldrake, which can move 30 inches. A 60 inch charge sounds crazy until you consider everything that an opponent can do with shooting. I mean, why are we so concerned about charge distance when there are armies that can pump out over 400 shots at 28 inches?

I'm not positive it's necessary to nerf these units. Open to other ideas, but right now I'm leaning towards saying it's not actually a bad thing.

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 techsoldaten wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
Can't a flying Hive tyrant / daemon prince charge 32" . I know for sure the hive tyrant is 9"/16". Wings changes the profile. thats a guaranteed first turn charge, pretty sure thats not good for the game.


I don't know the answer to that one. I saw a Hive Tyrant charge like 20 inches in one of those games, and it didn't seem unreasonable, but it was definitely different.

If we're basing our thoughts about charging on how far a human being could run in a few moments of time, sure, that's crazy.

If we're considering the idea that Xenos are a completely different species, that's different. I've seen horses charge cross an area the size of a football fields in a couple seconds. I think Tyranids could come up with the equivalent and it would not be too far fetched.

Another case I was considering was the Heldrake, which can move 30 inches. A 60 inch charge sounds crazy until you consider everything that an opponent can do with shooting. I mean, why are we so concerned about charge distance when there are armies that can pump out over 400 shots at 28 inches?

I'm not positive it's necessary to nerf these units. Open to other ideas, but right now I'm leaning towards saying it's not actually a bad thing.

So we'd have:
Hive Tyrants with 44" threat ranges,
Daemon Princes with 40",
Custodes Bikes with 42",
Magnus with 64",
etc.

You've made CQC better, which is good because it makes mediocre or average CC units good but you also make the already good (some say broken) CC units disgusting. Not only that but, for these units, you lose any tactics when it comes to CC; it's simply point and click without even ranges slowing you down. These units being able to hop to anywhere on the board and charge a unit are just as bad as Guard artillery that don't need to move nor do they need LoS to shoot anything on the board.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Don't you need LoS to make a charge currently?

Either way LoS restrictions would stop some of these crazy charges and just put an "X" inch restriction on max charge distance, maybe give some units an extra couple inches for charging.

I like the idea as a whole, but can we make flamers work no matter where they are charging from?
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 fraser1191 wrote:
Don't you need LoS to make a charge currently?

Either way LoS restrictions would stop some of these crazy charges and just put an "X" inch restriction on max charge distance, maybe give some units an extra couple inches for charging.

I like the idea as a whole, but can we make flamers work no matter where they are charging from?

You don't need LoS to charge, in fact it is better if you don't have LoS so ypur opponant can't overwatch.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

Trollbert wrote:
The rule that you only may declare a charge at units within 12" of you still exists.


Exactly.

There is already a max restriction on how far you can charge, it's 12". So al these silly 44" charges you talk about would have to be in a spiral or something, as you can't declare a charge on anything past 12"... (unless your rules have a change for that too, but you didn't mention it)
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I'd have to hard no this. Otherwise, my Shining spears can make a 32" charge. And with Quicken cast on them, they are moving double already. So 16" move + another 16" move + 32" charge.
It's basically "Make an LD test, auto-charge" All you have to do is get within 12". Currently, rolling 2d6 charge has potential to fail. This change would take that away. "Deep strike" would need to be outside 12"

This change helps already fast units FAR too much. Maybe instead of double you M, you charge M+d6"? But that is still a huge advantage to Eldar, whose basic infantry move 7"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 22:04:11


   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

This sounds terrible.

There are units with low leadership that need to charge. For example, Hormagants. While they are *effectively* fearless when under synapse, there is no relationship between fearlessness and Leadership in 8th edition. It just prevents losses due to morale, not automatically passing leadership tests.

Also, move distance is ridiculous once you start factoring in Cavalry, or Eldar in general. It'd be stupid to see Eldar moving 40" on the charge.


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:

It's basically "Make an LD test, auto-charge" All you have to do is get within 12". Currently, rolling 2d6 charge has potential to fail. This change would take that away. "Deep strike" would need to be outside 12".


That's still worse than bringing ranged weapons.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Cool concept, but I'm not sure it actually does what you think it does.

 techsoldaten wrote:


1) It made it easier to surround units and prevent fall-backs. I feel like melee units need a boost in general and this might be a good way to offset the natural advantages of shooting.

2) Leadership buffs from characters increase the likelihood of a charge going off. That just felt right.

3) It created a faux-tank-shock with Rhinos. They would disembark passengers, move, and tie up something else before the troops charged - but a lot more reliably.

4) It's simple and doesn't require fundamental changes to the game. It's the same dice roll, you just compare the result with a characteristic instead of a distance.


Assuming that we add a rule to allow charges beyond 12" (because otherwise you're talking about auto-passing charges for all units with Movement of 6" or more)....

1. Sounds like the goal here is to charge farther and more reliably. You're just as likely to flub a charge roll by rolling an 11 or 12 on a leadership test as you are to roll a 2" or 3" charge. So the potential for a flubbed, short-range charge is still there. Also, there are oddball units that would suddenly have shorter average charge ranges (like spore mines), though these are few and far between.

2. I agree. On the other hand, leadership debuffs lowering your ability to get off a charge, though arguably fluffy (they're too scared or disoriented to charge) could get out of hand quickly. Imagine a hemlock giving a -2 or -3 debuff to a unit's leadership. Imagine those units then trying to charge some coven or harlequin units with an additional Leadership debuff. You could make it nearly impossible for a unit to pass an old-fashioned leadership test. Khorne players would likely be displeased.

3. I'm not sure it's actually more reliable. At least, not for everyone. My eldar vehicles move fast enough to generally end up making relatively short, reliable charges. A 2d6 leadership test would just give me a roughly 40% chance of not being allowed to attempt the charge in the first place. Similar issues would exist for a marine rhino. Assuming leadership 7, you could end up 2" away after moving and then fail a leadership test, thus not being able to make a 2" charge.

4. You'd have to reintroduce leadership tests (which don't currently exist), figure out how to handle maximum charge distances, account for deepstriking chargers, and rethink a bunch of miscellaneous unit abilities that may or may not be too good after such a change was made. So it's probably not quite as simple a change as it first seems.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Fantasy was 2d6 + move stat, for flying units it was 2d6 + 10 OR move stat IIRC, simple enough and worked fine.
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

I like the concept of leadership based charges. There is a lot of sky falling down in the posts above that walk in circles though. I would be interested to hear more about what that group is doing and pose some considerations on how to implement it in a more robust way.

May I propose a tweak for the sake of discussing the topic? That a charge roll be leadership+d3 against distance, maintaining the maximum 12" requirement to declare the charge in the first place. There would need to be some changes such as synapse counting as a specific number (let's say 9). Overall this would make short charges consistently doable, deepstrike charges easy for most elite units, and put much more importance on terrain such as forests, craters, and elevation (for non-fly chargers). My concern is that there aren't many modifiers that would be effective in evening it out, so at the least the leadership would need to be modified by auras as if in base contact with the target (and a few things would need to be erratta'd slightly like tau grav drone).

Contingent tweak: Take -1 leadership for each unit declared in a multi-charge.
Also: when you select a unit to charge you may also select additional units all of which must share at least 1 target. Add 1 to the charge distance for each unit charging after the first, to each charge roll. Each successful charging unit must end its charge closer to the shared target unit. Resolve overwatch once for the charge against any charging units that can be targeted.

Scenario: A Shield-Captain (LD9) declares a charge 8.5" away and in a crater against a Night Lords raptor with icon of despair, and multi-charges the adjacent NL demon prince (-6 penalty). He selects for a unit of Vertus Praetors to charge the same raptors (+1 bonus) and not the prince (2 fewer penalty).
The captain rolls a 3 resulting in a total of 7 and fails.
The praetors roll a 2 resulting in a total of 8 and succeeds.
Here we see morale Auras and terrain are very powerful, be glad there isn't a butcher cannon firing overwatch .

Looking at the bulky suggestions I put up I see the merit of how gw ended up doing it.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Because Hormagants are worse at charging things than a Guardsman, seems legit.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Wow. a lot of people in this post (Except a few people) dont see to realise that YOU CAN ONLY DECLARE A CHARGE TO UNIT'S WITHIN 12" OF YOU

rooling a ld test sound more intuitive than the current randomness that is 2d6. The movement types i can see a problem but all you need to do is just add an additional clause (To a maximum of 12") to the end of the charge thing to stop all these shenanigans of people being able to fly over whole squads and get them tied into CC.

So the rulling can be like this

After the enemy unit or units have fired their Overwatch (if any) the player unit then rolls 2d6 and compares that to their leadership value, if the total is above that value then the charge fails, if the total is below then the unit can move up to double it's Current movement (To a Maximum of 12") towards the enemy units declared, if the unit is at least 1" away from any model in the enemy unit declared, the charge is successful

Also, i can see nids having problems with this (unless there was an added house rule to synapse that made units ld 10 or something)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/08 05:02:16


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






mchammadad wrote:
Wow. everyone on this post, (Except a few people) dont see to realise that YOU CAN ONLY DECLARE A CHARGE TO UNIT'S WITHIN 12" OF YOU

This whole "My guy can leap across the battlefield" means NOTHING when you still follow the main core rule of only able to DECLARE A CHARGE WITHIN 12" OF A UNIT

So guys..... remember. THE MAIN RULES STILL EXIST


While this is fair there are other good criticisms in there.

Hormagaunts have to pass a Ld 6 test to charge. Making Nids Ld10 doesn't fix it either. Then Nids basically always pass AND reach their targets. Automatically passing the test and reaching targets at any possible range is just as bad as having basically a 40% chance to pass the test. Potentially worse.

Anything with Speed 6+ automatically reaches every potential charge range while melee oriented terminators can only get in 8" which is too short to charge from a deepstrike.


The mechanic has issues that would need to be addressed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/08 04:57:02



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




mchammadad wrote:
Wow. a lot of people in this post (Except a few people) dont see to realise that YOU CAN ONLY DECLARE A CHARGE TO UNIT'S WITHIN 12" OF YOU

rooling a ld test sound more intuitive than the current randomness that is 2d6. The movement types i can see a problem but all you need to do is just add an additional clause (To a maximum of 12") to the end of the charge thing to stop all these shenanigans of people being able to fly over whole squads and get them tied into CC.

So the rulling can be like this

After the enemy unit or units have fired their Overwatch (if any) the player unit then rolls 2d6 and compares that to their leadership value, if the total is above that value then the charge fails, if the total is below then the unit can move up to double it's Current movement (To a Maximum of 12") towards the enemy units declared, if the unit is at least 1" away from any model in the enemy unit declared, the charge is successful

Also, i can see nids having problems with this (unless there was an added house rule to synapse that made units ld 10 or something)


Did not expect someone to post so fast. Just re amended my post

also, last i remember. Assault Terminators have 5" Movement

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/08 05:06:53


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Cataphracti are 4".

Which by extension means deathshroud terminators are also 4. The ones with scythes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/08 05:33:33



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Hell no. The last thing we need is to make 12" charges even more reliable and compress the table worse than it already is. Just accept that melee is a secondary part of the game and shooting should be the core of your army.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

mchammadad wrote:
Wow. a lot of people in this post (Except a few people) dont see to realise that YOU CAN ONLY DECLARE A CHARGE TO UNIT'S WITHIN 12" OF YOU

rooling a ld test sound more intuitive than the current randomness that is 2d6. The movement types i can see a problem but all you need to do is just add an additional clause (To a maximum of 12") to the end of the charge thing to stop all these shenanigans of people being able to fly over whole squads and get them tied into CC.

So the rulling can be like this

After the enemy unit or units have fired their Overwatch (if any) the player unit then rolls 2d6 and compares that to their leadership value, if the total is above that value then the charge fails, if the total is below then the unit can move up to double it's Current movement (To a Maximum of 12") towards the enemy units declared, if the unit is at least 1" away from any model in the enemy unit declared, the charge is successful

Also, i can see nids having problems with this (unless there was an added house rule to synapse that made units ld 10 or something)

Well since OP made mention of a Hive Tyrant charging across the board, it would seem they've left out the 12" charge rule.

And in any case, if we kept the 12" max-charge rule, what would be the point of the new double movement rule? Just make it a flat 12" charge then rather than double the models movement.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Charging should be based on the movement characteristic. Its a mystery to me how 4" cataphractii terminators have the same chance of making the charge like 16" scout bikes have, which is ridiculous. Something like 1D6 + half movement characteristic would make more sense.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

One of the people from the gaming group is lurking in this thread. Writing to encourage him to speak up and talk about his own experiences

He did take the time to tell me the way they play is not as broken has been made it out to be. They do limit charge range to movement + 6 inches and there's only a few units that can reach this distance.

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






I like this idea.

But "up to twice their movement characteristic" is way too much for the faster units. I think their movement characteristic + 6" would work better, since most foot-sloggers move 6".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/10 19:46:19


 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Wouldn't this make Ork mobs terrifying?

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
 
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