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After a few games, several discussions at my FLGS, and reading some threads here, I've been convinced that vanilla Marines are just not in a very good place for 8th edition. Wait, wait, this isn't another thread to complain about Marines, I swear! The consensus at my FLGS is that if I like my Marines in theory (which I do) but I want to field a competitive army (which I also do) then I'll need to bite the bullet and spring for some AdMech or Guard to address the weaknesses Marines have as a stand-alone force.

My problem with that is that if I start buying AdMech or Guard to supplement my Marines I'll eventually just be playing a pure AdMech or Guard army. Unless [and here is the real question and point of the thread] unless there are things that Marines do better than Guard or AdMech that would make it worth playing the mixed force.

I'm leaning more toward AdMech than Guard on pure aesthetics and for having the more limited line-up (and having to paint about half the infantry...) but I haven't ruled anything out yet.

well to start with what chapter do you run?

I've tried them as Iron Hands and Salamanders so far, Raven Guard for the sweet -1 to be hit is next on the list. I suspect that will match up better with my preferred play style.

The best use for marines that I have seen thus far is through blood angel smash captains. You could also try allying in deathwatch to deepstrike them in for lots of dakka.

For being Deathwatch.

Seriously though just wait until the Space Wolves codex comes out. Then we can see if they're best at being either Soace Wolves or Deathwatch.

Playing a marine (Raven Guard)/Guard (Vost) army (New player, just had my first "real" win today)

I use guard for CP, and some Heavy Weapon Support (I run a battalion of 3 Infantry, Company Commander warlord wit Aquila, Primaris Psycher, and a Heavy Weapon Squad, about 350 Points)

The other 1650 is mostly Primaris, using Raven Guard OOS and other Deap Striking to get in and strike hard...

I have so far come in second in a team tournament (but feel my partner carried me), and personal record is 2 W, 3 L, with one win being a "technical" win (I was loosing, but was able to wrestle control of one of the objective markers on the last turn to win, if the game had continued I would have been tabled the next turn). The losses were all when I was still building up my basic structure (still technically working on it)

If one were to play the current game and slowly optimize with no limitation of money and no loyalty to any faction fluff-wise, they would most likely end up with zero marine units in their list.

Marines aren't good for much of anything right now.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
If one were to play the current game and slowly optimize with no limitation of money and no loyalty to any faction fluff-wise, they would most likely end up with zero marine units in their list.

That's basically asking if they're the best army in the game, which they're not.

However, a few Space Marine units do stand on their own merits, scouts most notably.


If you're trying to be pure marines, I'd look to tanks for your salvation, since Predators are passable and Razorbacks are fairly decent, and possibly also look into airpower.

if you're trying to be marines, but don't mind allies, definitely take your IG battalion. Even 2 CC's and 3 Infantry are worth it for the CP, since it's so cheap, and you probably won't regret the heavy artillery and expendable bodies.

Space Marines are not garbage. They have some good units and it’s easy to build a battalion with two HQ and three scout squads. RG overrated I say.

Marines and IG is not a good combination since you can take max three detachments. Can’t wait til CP farm hits the skids.

The Newman wrote:
After a few games, several discussions at my FLGS, and reading some threads here, I've been convinced that vanilla Marines are just not in a very good place for 8th edition. Wait, wait, this isn't another thread to complain about Marines, I swear! The consensus at my FLGS is that if I like my Marines in theory (which I do) but I want to field a competitive army (which I also do) then I'll need to bite the bullet and spring for some AdMech or Guard to address the weaknesses Marines have as a stand-alone force.

My problem with that is that if I start buying AdMech or Guard to supplement my Marines I'll eventually just be playing a pure AdMech or Guard army. Unless [and here is the real question and point of the thread] unless there are things that Marines do better than Guard or AdMech that would make it worth playing the mixed force.

I'm leaning more toward AdMech than Guard on pure aesthetics and for having the more limited line-up (and having to paint about half the infantry...) but I haven't ruled anything out yet.

Primaris are in a good place. That 2nd wound is a must for elite sized armies, 1 wound doesn't cut it anymore, its okay for orks or guard but not for SM's.

This thread happened again fast.

To go back to the OP: I feel that marines over IG is that they have much more resilient troops (as a whole)

In today's game a unit of 5 Hellblasters held off 3 Chaos characters (after being about 40% of what took down a LoW first round) for 2 rounds. 2 units of guardsmen fell in 1 round by 2 models.... (near the same cost when you factor in Hvy Weapon Team). Marines feel like they have more deep strike. Guard has more heavy hitting weapons, but SM adds a manueverability angle to it IMO...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
After a few games, several discussions at my FLGS, and reading some threads here, I've been convinced that vanilla Marines are just not in a very good place for 8th edition. Wait, wait, this isn't another thread to complain about Marines, I swear! The consensus at my FLGS is that if I like my Marines in theory (which I do) but I want to field a competitive army (which I also do) then I'll need to bite the bullet and spring for some AdMech or Guard to address the weaknesses Marines have as a stand-alone force.

My problem with that is that if I start buying AdMech or Guard to supplement my Marines I'll eventually just be playing a pure AdMech or Guard army. Unless [and here is the real question and point of the thread] unless there are things that Marines do better than Guard or AdMech that would make it worth playing the mixed force.

I'm leaning more toward AdMech than Guard on pure aesthetics and for having the more limited line-up (and having to paint about half the infantry...) but I haven't ruled anything out yet.

Primaris are in a good place. That 2nd wound is a must for elite sized armies, 1 wound doesn't cut it anymore, its okay for orks or guard but not for SM's.

This. Primaris are what Marines are supposed to be on the tabletop. Regardless of fluff nonsense they are the Marines as wished for and how they are supposed to operate.

I've often thought Primaris Marines where designed with 7th edition in mind, in 8th edition they're mearly "solid" in 7th edition though (assuming they had that second wound) they would have been TERRIFYING.

AP 4 range 30 bolt guns would have made intercessors pretty solidly hard hitting, and hellblasters would likely have been terrifying anti tank under the old Hull points. assuming they where pointed reasonably well, 7th edition Primaris Marines would have been a terrifying meta changer.

 Insectum7 wrote:
This thread happened again fast.

Yeah man didn't you see my post about the endless cycles?

My favourite part is the math and then the denial

 buddha wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
After a few games, several discussions at my FLGS, and reading some threads here, I've been convinced that vanilla Marines are just not in a very good place for 8th edition. Wait, wait, this isn't another thread to complain about Marines, I swear! The consensus at my FLGS is that if I like my Marines in theory (which I do) but I want to field a competitive army (which I also do) then I'll need to bite the bullet and spring for some AdMech or Guard to address the weaknesses Marines have as a stand-alone force.

My problem with that is that if I start buying AdMech or Guard to supplement my Marines I'll eventually just be playing a pure AdMech or Guard army. Unless [and here is the real question and point of the thread] unless there are things that Marines do better than Guard or AdMech that would make it worth playing the mixed force.

I'm leaning more toward AdMech than Guard on pure aesthetics and for having the more limited line-up (and having to paint about half the infantry...) but I haven't ruled anything out yet.

Primaris are in a good place. That 2nd wound is a must for elite sized armies, 1 wound doesn't cut it anymore, its okay for orks or guard but not for SM's.

This. Primaris are what Marines are supposed to be on the tabletop. Regardless of fluff nonsense they are the Marines as wished for and how they are supposed to operate.

I have no clue what you mean, all armies are meant to be on the tabletop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've often thought Primaris Marines where designed with 7th edition in mind, in 8th edition they're mearly "solid" in 7th edition though (assuming they had that second wound) they would have been TERRIFYING.

AP 4 range 30 bolt guns would have made intercessors pretty solidly hard hitting, and hellblasters would likely have been terrifying anti tank under the old Hull points. assuming they where pointed reasonably well, 7th edition Primaris Marines would have been a terrifying meta changer.

Yeah the helblasters and the inceptors would have been crazy in 7th. Same with the gravis armour. Toughness doesn't really matter in this edition, it only matters at both ends of the spectrum.

Tactical Marines - the jack of all trades, but the master of none.
Primaris are the way to go these days unless you have a specific battle plan (BA, DA, SM with traits).

I like Salamander bricks with a couple of Dreads, and some walking Dudes. Take Vulcan, go for tons of rerolls on your weapons. Give your Sergeants a CC upgrade, so that if they're in combat, they can take advantage of rerolling hits and wounds.

Use that brick to support some slow-rolling Russes. Take a couple of disposable Infantry Squads to surround them. Give them weapons, or not.. whatever suits your fancy.


I ran into the exact problem in 7th, with my Guard. I started allying in pieces to improve my Guard force, and wound up running straight Ult-red Marines, because Blood Angels were terrible.

If you like PA dudes, then a Sally brick with a couple Dreads is a good start. Remember, that if you have a reroll for your heavy weapon, it's got a 75% chance to hit, even on the move. If you keep Vulkan nearby, you can have very accurate, mobile Dev squads.

Just a point on Primaris. The 2nd wound makes them resilient but the Intercessors do very little offensively. Per wound, they have half the firepower of tactical squads. Slightly better quality shots, but they are still offensively outclassed by tacticals.

Banville wrote:
Just a point on Primaris. The 2nd wound makes them resilient but the Intercessors do very little offensively. Per wound, they have half the firepower of tactical squads. Slightly better quality shots, but they are still offensively outclassed by tacticals.

No they don't, the have the same firepower better range and AP. Tactical squads are only better in one way, that they can have special/heavy weapons, 1 shot or 2 with special/heavy weapons never really does anything it was nice to have but meh, same with a powerfist, they were only really good for finishing off units that were nearly dead, very situational, their role is better fitted to sitting on objectives, for that i'd rather have tougher models. Its better to have intercessors and make up for their lack of options with different units.

The obvious answer is '...absolutely nothing'.

Kudos if you get it : )

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
The obvious answer is '...absolutely nothing'.

Kudos if you get it : )

WAR!

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Banville wrote:
Just a point on Primaris. The 2nd wound makes them resilient but the Intercessors do very little offensively. Per wound, they have half the firepower of tactical squads. Slightly better quality shots, but they are still offensively outclassed by tacticals.

No they don't, the have the same firepower better range and AP. Tactical squads are only better in one way, that they can have special/heavy weapons, 1 shot or 2 with special/heavy weapons never really does anything it was nice to have but meh, same with a powerfist, they were only really good for finishing off units that were nearly dead, very situational, their role is better fitted to sitting on objectives, for that i'd rather have tougher models. Its better to have intercessors and make up for their lack of options with different units.

I said 'per wound' tacs have more firepower. 10 tacs put out more firepower than 5 Intercessors. I agree that Intercessors primary role is to camp.

Tac squad with storm bolter, plasma gun and heavy bolter puts out 23 shots at 12", some of them good quality, too. 5 Intercessors put out 10. There's a 3" rapid fire advantage that is negated by the HB and plasma gun's range and AP.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
The obvious answer is '...absolutely nothing'.

Kudos if you get it : )

WAR!

You get a cookie Sir!

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
This thread happened again fast.

Yeah man didn't you see my post about the endless cycles?

My favourite part is the math and then the denial

I probably should have phrased the original question differently, what I was looking for was less "what are Marines good for?" and more "do AdMech or Guard have any weak spots in their line-up where Marines could pick up the slack?"

It's basically the same question but with the focus reversed.

In terms of Infantry and Vehicles, Guard give you so much more for your points. Power armour is nothing compared to equivalent points of guard for durability in most circumstances, and the Leman Russ has pretty much every Marine vehicle beaten.

The one thing Marines do have is scary characters. I think you could make an argument for including a melee Captain with a unit to accompany them. Blood Angels are the obvious choice for this, though Dark Angels can make a decent bomb too with Company Champions though they'd need transport.

Finally, if you plan to bring Raven Guard there are a few neat tricks you can pull that Guard don't have, namely the Strike from the Shadows strat. It's a gimmick and relies on getting the first turn, but dropping a unit right on your opponent that can still move is pretty scary. Use Aggressors Vs hordes, Hellblasters Vs elite armies, or Vanguard Vets tooled up as you please.

Scouts and fast, hard-hitting Captains, particularly of the Blood Angel variety for the latter. There are some really nice Forge World units that Marines have access to, namely the Leviathan.

Realistically though, almost everything else can be done better by another Imperial faction.

I guess the first step would be figuring out what vanilla marines do better than Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

A.T. wrote:
I guess the first step would be figuring out what vanilla marines do better than Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

They do the Raven Guard strat and tactic. Not to be flippant, but that really is the only significant advantage vanilla marines bring I'm afraid :(

EDIT: Oh, and Guilliman of course. Ultras are worth it if you're exploiting their Primarch!