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Here's just a couple of ideas I have on improving the list, comments welcome:

Changes to Grey Knights (special rules)

1.  All Grey Knights are now treated as carrying a Grimoire of True Names.

The fluff for grey knights indicates that they carry a book with the names of all known daemons in their chestplates, all this means is that now they can use it.  Gamewise it would now be incredibly risky for any daemons to engage the Grey Knights in close combat, where before most daemons saw little to no difference in fighting GKs over normal marines.

2.  Daemons brought back onto the table via sustained assault are now worth victory points. 

Under the current rules if a DH player wipes out a squad of daemonettes, and the opponent is forced to bring them in too far away to effect the main battle, they would ignore them as it wasn't worth it to destroy them again.  Now Grey Knights should have every reason to keep hunting down daemons wherever they appear on the battlefield.

Changes to Weapons, Wargear, Vehicle Upgrades
1.  Replace the phase "Invulnerable saves may NOT be taken" for Psycannons, Psycannon Bolts, and Incinerators with the following:

"Daemons may not take any saves of any kind against this weapon.  Saves that are from Daemonic Gifts may also not be taken.  This restriction is also on such saves as the Feel No Pain gift as well as bionics on a Daemon Prince."

The current version of the no-invulnerable save weapons (psycannon, etc) are better against Eldar than against Chaos.  This change means they are still good against other armies, but refocuses them to be more effective against the guys they are supposed to be good at fighting.

2.  Sacred Incense is no longer one per army, may be taken by any Grey Knights or Inquisitors, and is increased in price to 15 pts.

Spreading this item around should help out a bit against furious charging CSMs (one of the problem areas), and Slaaneshi units (who again, don't see much difference in fighting GKs over other marines).

3.  New Wargear for Grey Knights:  Psychic Amplifier (40 pts):  The character and any Grey Knight unit he joins replaces the Shrouding rule with the Stealth suit rules (counts as being in cover when charged, and roll 2d6x3 for spotting distance).

I deliberately made this pricy to force the player into having to make sacrifices to take it.  Sure, it makes them much harder to hit at long ranges, but it cuts down on their troop count and severely limits the wargear options for justicars, brother-captains, and grand masters if they choose to take it.

4.  The Blessed upgrade now has the additional effect of giving all of the weapons on the vehicle the same ability of psy-weapons (ignoring daemonic saves).  The price is increased to 20 pts.

It seemed kind of odd that a blessed lascannon is no different than a normal lascannon against a daemon.

Army List changes:

1.  Change the entry for the Brother-Captain to have two wounds, and increase the points cost to 80

One wound ICs don't tend to last too long on the battlefield.  The Grey Knights could use a valid 2 wound command choice (so they don't have to jump from a HQ that is more at home in >1000 pt games to one that's at home in 1850+ pt games).  By modifying the basic Brother-captain, the problem is fixed with the added benefit of giving terminator squads a extra wound.

2.  The Exitus Rifle now has two profiles:  Heavy 1 at full range, Assault 1 at 1/2 range.

Any shots made with the Exitus Rifle may reroll failed to-wound rolls.

The Vindicare is easily the least effective assassin.  These changes make the vindicare a much more attractive choice.

3.  Grey Knight Troops are reduced in price to 20 pts, the Justicar is now 40 pts.

Grey Knights are easily one of the most overpriced troop choices in the game. Dropping them to 20 pts makes them a bit more attractive as an option for Troops in a mixed DH army.  The reduction in cost for the Justicar was for the same reason.

4.  The Predator is added as a heavy support choice.  The entry is the same as the one in the Chaos codex (buys turret and sponsons seperately).  Requires Grey Knight Hero to be purchased.

This gives GKs some much needed anti-vehicle firepower, as there are plenty of daemonic vehicles running around now.

Allied units:

1.  Hellhounds available with same restrictions/requirements as the Leman Russ.

Gives a decent FA option, and, fluffwise, gives them something to "clean up" with after battles.

2.  Basilisks available with same restrictions/requirements as the Leman Russ.

Expands the Heavy Support options available, as well as fixing the relative inability to answer indirect fire.

 

 

I'd agree with everything but the Predator and the Basilisk. The Predator, because the Grey Knights are generally unmechanized; each Marine they use to man a vehicle is one less to battle the daemons, and wasting all the potential of a Grey Knight on a gun turret or driving a tank would be criminal. The Basilisk, because the Grey Knights are depicted as moving fast and light, and lumbering artillery would slow them down.

That is alot of changes and yet I can think of more I would like to see:

1) Get rid of the Hammerhand Psychic power and get something useful. Why would I pay to get S8 (GK Hero) S6 (Inquisitor) when I already have S6 on the hero that ignores armor. There are only a couple times I can see it being useful and if I play right then I should never be in that situation.
Replace it with a non daemon specifc power that is useful. I would love to see something like FOTD but I would take about anything else

2) Add WH Crusaders to the Inquistors Retinue choices so that I can have a decent HTH Retinue.

3) I would like to see inquistors at S4 T4 just to prevent the S6 instakill risk and make him a real threat to daemons in HtH

4) Assassins as Imperial allies without an Inquisitor

5) Orbital strike is worthless - Either fix it or get rid of it and find some other Hvy Support choices for non allied Radical Inquisitors.

6) If you do get Hellhounds the holy Promethium upgrade would be nice but that is more of a WH themed item.

7) Something for fighting khorne - Don't know what but Khornes great armor saves, fast moves and combat ability make them just about perfect for fighting against GK's. About the only advantage GK's have against them is sacred Incense which probably will not save them if combat starts.

8) It would be nice for GK in power armor to have an option for frag grenades or a special rule equivalent.

Sacred Incense is not one per army but it is limited only to GK Heroes or Inquisitors, it does seem to already be modeled on all Justicars so might as well make it worth something

How about making psycannons AP 3? That and give all GKs the ability to deepstrike, regardless of mission rules. Either that or drop 'em about 5 points.

A couple of corrections:

1. The change in cost to Grey Knight troops would apply to ALL power armoured GKs (including those taken in Fast Attack, and Purgation squads).

2. I'm thinking that Purgation squads should gain the "may always deepstrike" ability. Thoughts on this?

3. I'm also wondering about GK dreads getting the deep striking ability...

lord_sutekh

I had some thoughts on the predator idea last night. Inquisitors can take Land Raiders that aren't crewed by marines (they are crewed by tech-priests, or at least the ones in the WH codex are). So how about requiring a different unit type to be able to take them?

For example: What if they are crewed by stormtroopers, so would require you to take at least 2 stormtrooper squads? (This further reinforces the "support" role of the STs to the main force of GKs).

As far as the Basilisk problem, I'd like to give them some kind of reliable artillery, and there are only three available options (all of them have something that makes them less than desirable):

Basilisk: Represents a slow vehicle, something typically used in a long term battle and not in a quick engagement.

Whirlwind: I'm a bit leery on giving them too many Space Marine vehicles.

Griffon: Perhaps the ideal choice, the only problem being the model is "mail order only."

ptlangely

1. I agree about Hammerhand. How about making Holocaust a ranged power instead?

2. Dunno about the Crusaders, but it might help encourage the use of close combat inquisitors.

3. Maybe for Inquisitor Lords, as they have probably gone through a lot of augmentation by the time they've reached this rank. I'd have trouble justifying that for the Elites inquisitors based on the fact that they're supposed to be normal humans.

4. I dunno, I like the fact that assassins are now limited in scope and don't show up in every army.

5. I was toying around with an idea for orbital strikes which would work similar to the "ruiniation of cities" spell that the undead frog gets in the lizardmen army book. It would be a "pay per shot" weapon, and would probably lose the different "types" (I'm sure that if you were standing at ground zero, there's little difference between dropping a building sized projectile or shooting a ship-killer laser).

7. The Psychic Amplifier would help out here, as you automatically strike first the first round of combat (assuming they charge with no frag grenades). Remember, the Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, Fleshhounds, and Bloodletters are now going to be easy prey for their shooting, so it's just going to be the troops that are trouble.

8. I don't see a problem with frag grenades for power armoured gks...

9. Why did I think that I wonder? Maybe I was thinking of the Grimoire?

ether dude

I'm not sure AP3 Psycannons would be a good idea. It makes them incredibly good against Necrons and loyalist SMs as well (which in all honesty they don't need much help against).

I think the main problem with the DH Codex is that there are not enough non-Grey Knight Units. let's assume for a moment you want to use Possessed because you're Inquisitor is a rather radical one. ergo, you can't take Grey Knights. which cut's the usuable units from the main Codex down to 5. this is not very much, even for a theme army. they need more not MEq stuff like the WH have. right no, I have absolutly no Idea what that could be, but it should be there.


1.Demons should still be allowed to have an armor-save. that's just the way Khorne demons make up for their lack of psychic powers.

2. the only thing that would be encouragin would be to take more Crusaders, which is IMO the second best vehicle there is right now.

4.Assassins should be allowed as allies wthout taking an Inquisitor

1. The direct result is that Grey Knights remain the worst units to take when fighting against khornate daemons. The idea is that you should WANT to take grey knights to face any type of daemon, and right now I'd bet most DH players would rather take radical DH with space marines against khorne than a puritan list based around grey knights.

2. I believe he was referring to the crusader henchmen (from the WH codex), not the LRCs.

4. Then assassins start showing up in random lists again (does everybody really want to face a callidus assassin in every army list again?)

What I would like to see improved for GK?s is:

1. Reduce the cost of a GK model. A bloodletter is 24pts for a T4, S5, A2, LD10 with a power weapon and 3+/5+ save and can move and assault the turn it comes in.
2. Give all GK units the option to deep strike or allow the use of pods
3. Make the special rules better. Allow true grit to affect terminators, make shrouding better, maybe 2D6 X 4. Make abilities better against daemons.
4. Higher initiative to compliment the higher weapon skills.
5. Reduce the cost of a psycannon. 25pts is expensive and it is the same price as a normal GK model. And costing 35pts for the purgation squad is ridiculous.
6. More options for fast attack. Bike or landspeeders.
7. More HQ choices. I wouldn?t mind seeing a chaplain or a librarian.
8. Some anti-tank options for GKs. Maybe options to use preds, or GK only weapons.

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What I would like to see improved for the inquisition:

1. make the inquisitor lord and inquisitor not suck. Give them better psychic powers. Better henchmen and stats so that you don?t have to spend a lot points on a retinue which is mediocre. Maybe make some of the really good items/powers for use in daemon hunter army only to counterbalance allies taking the uber units.
2. make the assassin independent characters and not act independently. But keep the must have an inquisitor to field an assassin rule. Allies will have to bite the bullet and get the inquisitor lord to field the assassin. Because it would be unfair to the inquisition if allies could just take a callidus meanwhile inquisition must have an inquisitor field a callidus in a daemon hunter/witch hunter army.
3. More options for radical armies. Different weapons and psychic powers.

Demon Hunters should be given access to Predators if a GK Hero is present in the army. These would be used for Lascannons and the like, as such a thing is sorely needed in a GK army and a Lascannon pred isn't exactly the most cost efficient thing in the world so it wouldn't really break the game.
Psycannons should stay as is, probably reduce in points a bit. They should not be made AP3. Because if you do make them AP3 then every SM and IG army in the world will take mined out GK squads with Psycannons, and back it up with las/plas + assault cannons.
GK's should not have access to drop pods. If GK's get pods then Orks should get fleet. Do you really want to see this kind of thing happen? Give them access to rhinos now that 3rd ed is gone.
Shrouding should not be changed.
GK Bikes....would have to cost upwards of 40-50 points a pop, if they were to get them. Perhaps give them access to Meltaguns. GK's should not get access to Landspeeders unless in a radical DH Army. Otherwise, No.
GK's should not get access to a Chaplain or Librarian. They are not Space Marines.

For the Inquisition, they should be made better in general, but you can't make them too good. Imagine if the Inquisitor Lord had access to some pretty sweet Psychic Powers, you'd see him and the Callidus in EVERY SM ARMY. It would not be pretty.

Assassins should stay as they are. The Callidus is too good already.

just something I wanted to say: I think GK tanks are a bit strange. the army somehow loses a bit of it's feel, wenn I see chromed Landraiders or Predators

"2.  Daemons brought back onto the table via sustained assault are now worth victory points."

That's less a problem with Daemonhunters and more a problem with Sustained Assault. All units that come back via Sustained Assault should be worth VP's, not just Daemons.

"3.  New Wargear for Grey Knights:  Psychic Amplifier (40 pts):  The character and any Grey Knight unit he joins replaces the Shrouding rule with the Stealth suit rules (counts as being in cover when charged, and roll 2d6x3 for spotting distance)."

Don't see the point honestly. Why would you pay 40 points to slightly decrease the distance you can be seen at when you are primarily a HTH force. If anything, the only 'sighting' upgrade should be a shrouding upgrade for GK Dreads.

"1.  Change the entry for the Brother-Captain to have two wounds, and increase the points cost to 80"

He'd be worth 80 if he had 3 wounds. 70 at most for a W2 character.

"Any shots made with the Exitus Rifle may reroll failed to-wound rolls."

Whilst that would go a long way to improving the utulity of the Vindicare, the first and most important fix that needs to be made is that all Assassins have to become Independant Characters once again. As Independant Units they just die too easily.

"3.  Grey Knight Troops are reduced in price to 20 pts, the Justicar is now 40 pts."

It'd be far better to just give GK Marines A2 as standard.

"4.  The Predator is added as a heavy support choice.  The entry is the same as the one in the Chaos codex (buys turret and sponsons seperately).  Requires Grey Knight Hero to be purchased."

As others have said, the Predator doesn't really fit with the GK's. It doesn't feel right.

"Hellhounds/Basilisks available with same restrictions/requirements as the Leman Russ."

I don't really have a problem with that. LatD can get up to 3 Basilisks, so why can't Daemon/Witch/Hello Kitty Hunters get 1.

BYE

"1) Get rid of the Hammerhand Psychic power and get something useful."

I agree. Hammerhand is nice for nostalgic Rogue Trader players, but for everyone else it's just an overpriced power that doesn't do anything useful to begin with.

"2) Add WH Crusaders to the Inquistors Retinue choices so that I can have a decent HTH Retinue."

Would you allow 3 Crusaders and 3 Combat Servitors to be taken?

"3) I would like to see inquistors at S4 T4 just to prevent the S6 instakill risk and make him a real threat to daemons in HtH"

I think that taking Terminator Armour should make them base Toughness 4, so there's a reason to take it and you won't be splatted by S6 and S7.

"4) Assassins as Imperial allies without an Inquisitor"

As allies in a different army, yes. In a Daemonhunter I'd still want an Inquisitor to be there.

"5) Orbital strike is worthless - Either fix it or get rid of it and find some other Hvy Support choices for non allied Radical Inquisitors."

Orbital Strike useless? I'd actually further restrict it. I hate weapons that cannot be stopped. Nothing sucks more than being bombarded with Indirect Fire when you can't kill that which is causing the shots.

In the Daemonhunter Codex our group wrote for 40K Revisited, we removed 'Orbital Strike', as an option, and made the slot into a 'Damocleas Command Rhino'. The Orbital Strike functioned as normal, except that you could reposition it to somewhere where either the Damocleas or an Inquisitor Lord could see. Killing the Damocleas stopped the Orbital Strike from happening.

BYE

Things that we did in our Daemonhunter Codex:

Inquisitor's Retinue option in games lower than 1500 points. Increased size of Retinue (Lord up to 15, regular up to 8 or so).

Beefed up the Retinue Options a bit, including several 0-1 Henchmen.

Cygryn - Cyber Ogryn.
Paladin - Seconded Justicar
Cyber-Hound - As it sounds.
Rogue Trader - Everyman armed to the teeth with Xenos stuff.

Added Inquisitorial Commissars as an HQ choice and further expanded the role of the Inquisitorial Stroom Trooper (Land Speeder-bourne combat teams, Sniper Teams etc.).

Changed Terminators dramatically so the basic profile is:

WS4 BS4 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv2+/5+(I).

This applies to all Terminators, so all characters gain the extra wound from Termy Armour (so GK Grand Master became WS6 BS5 S4(6) T4(5) W4 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)).

True-Grit applies to models in Terminator Armour.

Psycannon to Heavy/Asssault 4.

Added a weapon called the Redeemer - AP3 Lascannon for Purgation Squads only.

When Deep Striking GK's, a Hit allows them to assault that turn as well as shoot. When taking them as allies in a Marine/Guard army, you can roll all GK's on a single reserve roll if you wish.

Made Daemonhosts, Death Cultists and Assassins far more scary, especially the Eversor and Daemonhosts, so that it was worth taking them over GK's. In other words, made a good reason to go Radical.

BYE

"2.  Daemons brought back onto the table via sustained assault are now worth victory points."

That's less a problem with Daemonhunters and more a problem with Sustained Assault. All units that come back via Sustained Assault should be worth VP's, not just Daemons.

No arguement here, was just patching a problem until they decide to fix the sustained assault rules.  Even if they did however, I believe the DH codex even states you don't get VPs for recycled daemon units (so it would override any such change made to the core rules).

"3.  New Wargear for Grey Knights:  Psychic Amplifier (40 pts):  The character and any Grey Knight unit he joins replaces the Shrouding rule with the Stealth suit rules (counts as being in cover when charged, and roll 2d6x3 for spotting distance)."

Don't see the point honestly. Why would you pay 40 points to slightly decrease the distance you can be seen at when you are primarily a HTH force. If anything, the only 'sighting' upgrade should be a shrouding upgrade for GK Dreads.

There's two reasons for this:

#1  Shrouding is one of the reasons GKs don't have transports, yet it's a poor mechanism for protecting them against getting shot at on their way across the battlefield.  This way there's a better chance of more GKs making their way into h2h.

#2  Another side effect to their low mobility is that they're on the receiving end of more charges than they make.  Typically this means that anybody with furious charge (or method of reducing initiative) and a transport or alternate movement mode (bikes/jetpack/etc) has a good chance of clearing their kill zone before the GKs even get to strike.

This item, should the GK player choose to use it, reduces the number of turns they get shot at (one or more rounds of not being shot at can mean a lot more GKs reach the enemy), and makes them better able to absorb charges from the enemy's (often better) close combat troops (see also, daemonettes).

"1.  Change the entry for the Brother-Captain to have two wounds, and increase the points cost to 80"

He'd be worth 80 if he had 3 wounds. 70 at most for a W2 character.

I purposely aimed high with his cost so it could be reduced with playtesting.

"Any shots made with the Exitus Rifle may reroll failed to-wound rolls."

Whilst that would go a long way to improving the utulity of the Vindicare, the first and most important fix that needs to be made is that all Assassins have to become Independant Characters once again. As Independant Units they just die too easily.

Actually I agree, I believe all of the assassins should be treated as ICs (they just can't join units).

"3.  Grey Knight Troops are reduced in price to 20 pts, the Justicar is now 40 pts."

It'd be far better to just give GK Marines A2 as standard.

Actually, I'm not sure even giving them A2 would justify the pricetag.  One attack + 1 for true grit seems to work against most opponents just fine, the main problem is getting enough bodies on the battlefield.

"4.  The Predator is added as a heavy support choice.  The entry is the same as the one in the Chaos codex (buys turret and sponsons seperately).  Requires Grey Knight Hero to be purchased."

As others have said, the Predator doesn't really fit with the GK's. It doesn't feel right.

What about the idea with stormtroopers then?  To take the preds you need to take at least two stormtrooper squads.

True-Grit applies to models in Terminator Armour.

I actually have no problem with this.

Psycannon to Heavy/Asssault 4.

I'd have no problem with this if it had the modifications I listed above.  With this modification it becomes too good against the armies it's not supposed to be (ie:  Eldar).

Added a weapon called the Redeemer - AP3 Lascannon for Purgation Squads only.

Not a bad idea, but why give them a worse lascannon where every other weapon they have is a better version of something else (unless it's an assault 1 weapon)?

Why not just give them a meltagun option instead?

When Deep Striking GK's, a Hit allows them to assault that turn as well as shoot. When taking them as allies in a Marine/Guard army, you can roll all GK's on a single reserve roll if you wish.

I like the whole "roll on a single reserve roll" idea, but the whole "can charge if you roll a hit" just screams daemon summoning to me.  Besides, what happens if you are under the effect of a teleport homer?

Made Daemonhosts, Death Cultists and Assassins far more scary, especially the Eversor and Daemonhosts, so that it was worth taking them over GK's. In other words, made a good reason to go Radical.

Actually, I'd love to see radical inquisitors be able to take a small allowance of daemonic gifts (say 50 pts, restricted to non-lord only gifts), and be able to take any of the undivided daemon weapons (kai gun, dread axe, ether lance, darkblade).

oh yeah, that would be cool. but they would still need more options. especially fast attack...maybe Chaos Hounds