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Noticed that the Index appears to be just multiple codex's in one, is this true? Can the index function as a codex without the fluff? Or are the index's out of data/ missing information.

Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

An index has most of the unit rules in it yes, (armies that have gotten new units, like space marines and death guard) don't have those new units in the codex, and the codex has stratigiums, relics and other special rules. but by and large the index is a good place to start if you're looking for several armies on a budget.

Things I'd reccomend an index for:

-If you and a friend are new to 40k or just on a tight budget (although if you're on a tight budget to be honest I'd advise against 40k) and want to play armies that happen to share an index, they're a good place to start.
- or if you're new to 40k over all and want to have a look at a varity of armies before commiting to expensive model choices. well IMHO stratigiums and chapter tactics can often really define an army, you'll have the general ideas just from the index.
- You're an ooold returning player who may have a few legacy options that are in the index but not the codex (Space Marine Bike captains for example) in this case you may want an index to supplement your codex.

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

With 4 current exceptions, the ForgeWorld units are still Index books, in both name and style.

Yep, and they suffer for it. If you're new to 40K and just trying it out, I think you could do worse than buying a cheap used Index to see how the game works.

The indexes were pushed out quickly to give rules for all armies at the start of 8th edition, as the rules changed sufficiently to invalidate all the codexes from previous editions. Since then GW have been updating all the index rules with individual codexes. Codex supercedes index.

And gw made deliberately indexes weaker so you are handicapping yourself without codex.

tneva82 wrote:
And gw made deliberately indexes weaker so you are handicapping yourself without codex.

if by "deliberatly made them weaker" you mean "didn't include all the options in the codex" you're right

Only idiot would think say codex ig trooper is worth same as from index. Free traits etc. There's no real reason 2000pts ig from index couldn't be equal to 2000pts of codex except gw deliberately gave free rules and point discounts. 2000pts index should be weaker(no traits etc) but in return have more of them

Or is gw really stupid enough to think traits etc are worth nothing?

tneva82 wrote:
Only idiot would think say codex ig trooper is worth same as from index. Free traits etc. There's no real reason 2000pts ig from index couldn't be equal to 2000pts of codex except gw deliberately gave free rules and point discounts. 2000pts index should be weaker(no traits etc) but in return have more of them

Or is gw really stupid enough to think traits etc are worth nothing?

You're making the mistake of comparing index and codex rules as if both are supposed to be options you can choose between. They aren't. The index was a $20 tax to keep playing your army until your codex was printed, once you get a codex the index goes in the trash. It doesn't matter if the traits are "free" because there's nothing to compare them to.

Not completely in the trash. There are still somethings that are only in the indexes, which you can field with your codex army. (Gaining all traits and benefits).

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

First few games, or in the case of Orks/Space Wolves/Sisters of Battle/Genestealer Cult the first few years.

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

You don't have to buy a codex to keep playing.
You can play with the indexes just fine.
I'm planning on grabbing them once people start getting rid of theirs, then I'll have Rules of all the armies, and I can always get the card sets if I want the Stratagems.

 Blndmage wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

You don't have to buy a codex to keep playing.
You can play with the indexes just fine.
I'm planning on grabbing them once people start getting rid of theirs, then I'll have Rules of all the armies, and I can always get the card sets if I want the Stratagems.

That's only viable if your group is ok with it. Which they might be, and if they are then ace! But random pick up games or tournaments probably won't be keen on you using outdated rules.

Sure, you are shooting yourself in the foot power wise anyway, so maybe people won't care. But maybe they will.

Stux wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

You don't have to buy a codex to keep playing.
You can play with the indexes just fine.
I'm planning on grabbing them once people start getting rid of theirs, then I'll have Rules of all the armies, and I can always get the card sets if I want the Stratagems.

That's only viable if your group is ok with it. Which they might be, and if they are then ace! But random pick up games or tournaments probably won't be keen on you using outdated rules.

Sure, you are shooting yourself in the foot power wise anyway, so maybe people won't care. But maybe they will.

I don get it, it's not like I'm trying to play from a different edition, the indexes should still be valid, and from what GW has said, they ARE still valid considering the whole flowchart thing. What's the issue with running, say, Necrons, or Tyranids from the index? Why are pick up games different?

You have to use the latest rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You have to use the latest rules.

And this discussion has nothing to do with the legality of rules - it's about the difference between codex and index.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You have to use the latest rules.

Says who?
Will GW's game police come and charge me with something?
If people using Codexes can still use Indexes for options the Codex doesn't have, then the Indexes are still valid to be used in place of a codex.

Pick up games are different in that everyone needs to broadly be agreeing to play by RAW, and that means using the most recent rules. It's different to playing with friends in that there it's much easier to have an agreement for the group to change significant parts of the rules of that's what the group wants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You have to use the latest rules.

Says who?
Will GW's game police come and charge me with something?
If people using Codexes can still use Indexes for options the Codex doesn't have, then the Indexes are still valid to be used in place of a codex.

By the rules of the game that simply isn't true. The most recent rules take precedence.

If you find a game that doesn't want to run it that way then awesome, have fun. It just isn't the default, and you may find yourself having to argue it is all.

 Blndmage wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

You don't have to buy a codex to keep playing.
You can play with the indexes just fine.
I'm planning on grabbing them once people start getting rid of theirs, then I'll have Rules of all the armies, and I can always get the card sets if I want the Stratagems.

That's only viable if your group is ok with it. Which they might be, and if they are then ace! But random pick up games or tournaments probably won't be keen on you using outdated rules.

Sure, you are shooting yourself in the foot power wise anyway, so maybe people won't care. But maybe they will.

I don get it, it's not like I'm trying to play from a different edition, the indexes should still be valid, and from what GW has said, they ARE still valid considering the whole flowchart thing. What's the issue with running, say, Necrons, or Tyranids from the index? Why are pick up games different?

I'd play you if you were using an index army, rather than the codex version. You wounldn't get stratagems though, besides the three in the main book, and whatever CA gave the index version of your army. Stratagems are a perk of using the codex version.

 Blndmage wrote:
I don get it, it's not like I'm trying to play from a different edition, the indexes should still be valid, and from what GW has said, they ARE still valid considering the whole flowchart thing. What's the issue with running, say, Necrons, or Tyranids from the index? Why are pick up games different?

I mean to start with a lot of the points values are completely different. This is largely shooting yourself in the foot in the case of Necrons since for the most part our points went down instead of up, but the point still stands.

Codex: Somethings Orks don't get.

Index: Something Orks get.

phydaux wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

First few games, or in the case of Orks/Space Wolves/Sisters of Battle/Genestealer Cult the first few years.

TIL June 2017 was a "few years" ago...

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Index = weak, stripped-down set of rules that were used for the first few games of 8th while you waited for a codex.

Codex = your full rules, faction bonuses, stratagems, etc. Codex rules are much more powerful than index rules and you have to buy them if you want to keep playing.

You don't have to buy a codex to keep playing.
You can play with the indexes just fine.
I'm planning on grabbing them once people start getting rid of theirs, then I'll have Rules of all the armies, and I can always get the card sets if I want the Stratagems.

That's only viable if your group is ok with it. Which they might be, and if they are then ace! But random pick up games or tournaments probably won't be keen on you using outdated rules.

Sure, you are shooting yourself in the foot power wise anyway, so maybe people won't care. But maybe they will.

I don get it, it's not like I'm trying to play from a different edition, the indexes should still be valid, and from what GW has said, they ARE still valid considering the whole flowchart thing. What's the issue with running, say, Necrons, or Tyranids from the index? Why are pick up games different?

I'd play you if you were using an index army, rather than the codex version. You wounldn't get stratagems though, besides the three in the main book, and whatever CA gave the index version of your army. Stratagems are a perk of using the codex version.

Even if they had the Stratagem cards? I can understand "You don't have the rules, so you can't use them," but if you had the rules (in the form of the cards) would you still say no strats?

There's no way I can know as your opponent in that scenario if there are any broken interactions between the index Datasheets and the codex Stratagems, so no. If you want to use the strats, use the codex.

Stux wrote:
There's no way I can know as your opponent in that scenario if there are any broken interactions between the index Datasheets and the codex Stratagems, so no. If you want to use the strats, use the codex.

Do you have any actual examples of Indexes breaking Codex Stratagems, or is this just a "What-if" scenario?

Also, if you're playing an Index person, it should be a friendly game, so you should be able to say "Wait a minute, that seems OP," if something breaks, and talk to them about it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Stux wrote:
There's no way I can know as your opponent in that scenario if there are any broken interactions between the index Datasheets and the codex Stratagems, so no. If you want to use the strats, use the codex.

Do you have any actual examples of Indexes breaking Codex Stratagems, or is this just a "What-if" scenario?

Also, if you're playing an Index person, it should be a friendly game, so you should be able to say "Wait a minute, that seems OP," if something breaks, and talk to them about it.

If I'm playing with friends, then sure. If not then I don't really want to put myself in that position where I might need to do that though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention that index entries don't get erratad or points adjusted after the codex is released, so I'd just be a little uneasy about the whole thing

Stux wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Stux wrote:
There's no way I can know as your opponent in that scenario if there are any broken interactions between the index Datasheets and the codex Stratagems, so no. If you want to use the strats, use the codex.

Do you have any actual examples of Indexes breaking Codex Stratagems, or is this just a "What-if" scenario?

Also, if you're playing an Index person, it should be a friendly game, so you should be able to say "Wait a minute, that seems OP," if something breaks, and talk to them about it.

If I'm playing with friends, then sure. If not then I don't really want to put myself in that position where I might need to do that though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention that index entries don't get erratad or points adjusted after the codex is released, so I'd just be a little uneasy about the whole thing

I imagine someone using indexes is playing casually, not going to a bloody tourny yes.

Absolutely. And I might be fine with it depending on the specific circumstances. All I'm saying is that I'd expect them to ask beforehand rather than just assume it's ok to use different rules.

Are Orks still being left out in the cold in 40K then? I mean, at least GW are consistent. I remember that bloody 3rd edition codex lasting me nearly 2 editions.