Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We have now had some time to experiment with the endless spells and I thought I might be interesting to start an in-depth discussion on them; which one are good, which ones are bad, when you should take a certain spell over another, how many you should be including, and other random observations. I thought I would start thing off with my general opinion on each spell.

Aethervoid Pendulum - (good) does great damage and hard to back fire on you.

Balewind Vortex - (good) really any wizard can take advantage of it, some more than others

Chronomantic Cogs - (great) two really good abilities that you can flip between

Emerald Lifeswarm - (fair) give access to healing

Geminids of Uhl-Gysh - (great) probably the hands down best predatory damage spell, far casting range, 2d3 damage, two really strong de-buffs, expect this thing to get a points increase in the future

Malevolent Maelstrom - (good) I didn't like it at first for its predictability but, has a far casting range, is really cheap, and great anti wizard ability

Prismatic Palisade - (great) great counter to range and good for hampering enemy movement

Purple Sun of Shyish - (fair) I think its too expensive for what it does

Quicksilver Swords - (good) nice cheep spell and would suggest taking as long as your not Chaos

Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws - (good) best mobility on a spell with a nice debuff

Soulsnare Shackles - (good) cheep, good casting range, good for zoning and board control

Suffocating Gravetide - (bad) due to its size and short cast range it has to start next to the caster meaning your wizard would have to be out front, couple that with a confusing ability that gives cover

The Burning Head - (fair/bad) short cast range and standard damage, its not so much as bad as it is outclassed by the other spells; maybe you can take advantage of the combat buff, but so could your enemy

Umbral Spellportal - (fair/great) this really depends on the caster/spells you have in your army

To me Soulsnare Shackles has proven to be one of the most OP spells seen it only costs 20 pts. if it goes of and does its thing an army can be partially dead in the water for a turn(and even a few if someone gets really unlucky) which is more powerful then a few mortal wounds IMHO. cost should go up.

 minisnatcher wrote:
To me Soulsnare Shackles has proven to be one of the most OP spells seen it only costs 20 pts. if it goes of and does its thing an army can be partially dead in the water for a turn(and even a few if someone gets really unlucky) which is more powerful then a few mortal wounds IMHO. cost should go up.

I agree, the shackles are one of the best.

Overall it's funny because in gaming it happens over and over that the direct-damage spells/abilities/whatnot are heavily tested in order to make sure they are balanced, but buffs/debuffs easily slip through the cracks. And all the best endless spells are like that--Shackles, Cogs, Portals...

But another factor is that the predatory spells are more or less straight-up worse than ones that stay put. Exploiting double-turns is still the most effective means of winning a game, so spells that can be utilized with that are naturally preferred.

At any rate, cogs has to be MVP of the spells (MVS?) because of the utility and power; for deep striking armies getting that +2" to charge means you need a 7 instead of a 9--huge difference, while any wizard can use the extra spell and more powerful monster-wizards or just combat-oriented ones really benefit from the re-rolled saves as well. Portals can be more useful but only for niche builds while cogs are just great for everyone; unless you are hurting bad for points they are auto-take for almost any faction.

I agree. Geminids, pallisade, shackles and portal are the best IMHO. Pallisade + shackles for 50 points that can utterly deny shooting is very strong. I think the cogs come a very close fifth, but that's because they are used by the enemy too

Predatory Endless Spells are a gamble on turns and control - I think the key with them is that they work better with a battle mage that wants to rush up fast so that you can cast the predatory spell as far into the enemy areas as you can; so that even on your opponents turn, the spell is still too far from your own forces to be a risk.

The pendulum at least lets you control the attack path so that it can at least plan around it not harming you when/if the opponent takes control.


Another trick is to cast predatory Endless spells near the edge of the map so that you can cast, move and have them do damage and then fly off the map so that they automatically get removed from play.


I've a feeling that the new comet from Sigmar is going to prove very powerful in objective games; throwing down an area effect damage spell that doesn't move is going to be very good at securing or at least denying an objective.

Is it worth putting a wizard up on a Balewind to cast another endless spell for the extra 6" range? I was thinking of using the Balewind for my Daemonsmith in the Legion of Azgorh, then perhaps using the Pallisade to block ranged attacks to protect my Bull Centaurs.

I haven't used them all but have played a few games with a variety of them being used.

I primarily play Tzeentch keep in mind.

Favorites:

Balewind - more spells is always good. Increases height of model for LOS purposes as well.

Pendulum - More mortal wounds and fairly easy to avoid damage to yourself.

Spellportals - AMAZING for wizard-heavy armies. Especially deadly in the Realm of Shadow, where the second portal can be setup anywhere on the battlefield. Turn 1 character snipe potential with things like Infernal Gateway etc.

Shackles - Great for their cost. Can be absolutely devastating against certain armies, especially if they have large model bases, and no ability to fly. Can utterly trap or wall-off areas of the board if next to impassable terrain etc. as models cannot go over them and must go around. (ex. if your enemy has multiple models on 40mm bases, space the three shackles so they are less than 40mm apart. Enemy has to go around and cannot fit in between the shackles. They will likely use up a spell to dispel this instead of doing that. Almost always worth it.

Good:
Cogs - Exceptionally good for certain armies (Orruks, Death, Sigmarites etc) that specialize in close combat or deep striking. But, have the downside that if up against a similar army, you are also helping the enemy. Ex. My Khorne army loves it if you bring this. You help me just as much as yourself.

Lifeswarm - Keeps stuff alive and is fairly reliable. When stacked with multiple "life gain" type spells can be very annoying.

Prismatic Pallisade - good for blocking line of sight and blinding units for the -1 to hit. Not reliable, but can help reduce damage from things that do mortal wounds on 6s to hit etc.

Meh:
Swords - Cheap, but not very effective

Burning Skull - Can be decent with certain armies, mainly for the combat buff

Geminids - No opinion. Never seen them yet

Ravenacks Jaws - No opiniom. Never seen them.

Malevolent Maelstrom - No opinion. Never seen them.

Bad:
Suffocating Gravetide - I mainly see it as a big model to just get in the way and make a charge more difficult. Haven't seen it used bc opponent didn't really know how or where to use it.

Purple Sun - Too expensive.

Just my thoughts. Overall I am loving the new spells. I usually take at least the Balewind Vortex and the pendulum or shackles in my Tzeentch lists. However, I mostly build a list and then use the extra 80ish points to fill with whatever spells I feel like using that day.

- VardenV2

 VardenV2 wrote:
Cogs - Exceptionally good for certain armies (Orruks, Death, Sigmarites etc) that specialize in close combat or deep striking. But, have the downside that if up against a similar army, you are also helping the enemy. Ex. My Khorne army loves it if you bring this. You help me just as much as yourself.

Basing spell performance off a player deliberately using it to harm their chances is like rating a predatory spell assuming the summoning player ran it through their own guys.

Without having used them, the Shackles don’t seem that good to me. I mean, their Effect is certainly good, but the opponent get two chances to dispel them, and second only has to beat a mere five casting value.

Personally I’m all about the Cogs. The extra spell is gravy, but I’m in for the plus two to charges. My Sylvaneth needing nines after teleport or summoning shenenigans is a hard sell, but a seven is much more doable.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:
Cogs - Exceptionally good for certain armies (Orruks, Death, Sigmarites etc) that specialize in close combat or deep striking. But, have the downside that if up against a similar army, you are also helping the enemy. Ex. My Khorne army loves it if you bring this. You help me just as much as yourself.

Basing spell performance off a player deliberately using it to harm their chances is like rating a predatory spell assuming the summoning player ran it through their own guys.

Well the first part of statements says that it can be good fro certain armies like Orruks, Death, and Sigmarites that deepstrike etc. They didn't deliberately use it to harm themselves. But there is a balance to be weighed before using it against certain armies. Against my Tzeentch, it's a great choice to close the gap and get in my face right away. Against something like Khorne, you might want to think twice is what I am getting at. It might be pure upside, or it might have some downside to be considered before casting. Which is why the cogs is a "good" spell and not a "great" one, in my opinion,

- VardenV2

I think if the concern regarding the cogs is what your opponent is bringing then you have to make a tactical choice while playing. Do I need to make a charge with my army (I like to run Legions of Night so 3 units making a first turn or late turn charge in the backline can be amazing), or should I switch them to the plus 1 spell (if you opponent may get off some charges on their turn you don't want) or do I need to even cast it this turn. It is a great utility spell. I have seen the Shackles do a good job sometimes and on the other hand I saw someone cast them to frustrate their opponents move and in the end it cost them the game as they forgot to/couldn't dispelling them and it ended up slowing his unit trying to get on an objective that got seized by his opponent. It is hard to say any spell is auto include, it all depends on your playstyle.
e

 AduroT wrote:
Without having used them, the Shackles don’t seem that good to me. I mean, their Effect is certainly good, but the opponent get two chances to dispel them, and second only has to beat a mere five casting value.

Remember it is only 20 pts and if it goes off it can be devastating for the enemy.
2 chances, only if he has a wizard near the target... If you are playing vs tzeentch with a lot of wizards then it will be hard to pull off. (But won't most spells not be hard to pull off in that case?)

If it is on the board it needs and to be dispelled it costs the wizard a casting chance. So that is another + in my book.

Some armies (Like khorne, duardin) cannot dispel the thing as soon as it is on the board. (Units that are not wizards but can unbind cannot dispel endless spells)

It can effectively give you an extra turn to ping a few objectives, while your opponent manoevres and puts effort in getting out your 20 pts trap, might have to break formation etc.

For only 20 pts this spell is quite OP.

 VardenV2 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:
Cogs - Exceptionally good for certain armies (Orruks, Death, Sigmarites etc) that specialize in close combat or deep striking. But, have the downside that if up against a similar army, you are also helping the enemy. Ex. My Khorne army loves it if you bring this. You help me just as much as yourself.

Basing spell performance off a player deliberately using it to harm their chances is like rating a predatory spell assuming the summoning player ran it through their own guys.

Well the first part of statements says that it can be good fro certain armies like Orruks, Death, and Sigmarites that deepstrike etc. They didn't deliberately use it to harm themselves. But there is a balance to be weighed before using it against certain armies. Against my Tzeentch, it's a great choice to close the gap and get in my face right away. Against something like Khorne, you might want to think twice is what I am getting at. It might be pure upside, or it might have some downside to be considered before casting. Which is why the cogs is a "good" spell and not a "great" one, in my opinion,

- VardenV2

You pick between board wide +2" move/charge OR and extra cast for that wizard & re-rolled saves. The latter makes it better for Tzeentch than it is for most, even; a LoC with another spell and re-rollable 4+ armor is quite strong. If you pick the movement buff against Khorne then yeah, it's probably bad. If you summon a predatory spell and send it through your own guys that's bad too. But it's ridiculous to judge the spells based on the potential of a player deliberately screwing themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:
Without having used them, the Shackles don’t seem that good to me. I mean, their Effect is certainly good, but the opponent get two chances to dispel them, and second only has to beat a mere five casting value.

It's not the effect; it's the point cost. Also dispelling it while active isn't free; it eats up a spell that wizard would have cast during the turn.

Currently I'm a big fan of the Comet spell as well. I picked back up my Sylvaneth and started using Gnarlroot for a Stormcast wizard. The range and impact damage of the comet can seriously deter your opponent from going places or just hit some critical heroes instantly. It's not very hard to call in and it works well enough.

 mmzero252 wrote:
Currently I'm a big fan of the Comet spell as well. I picked back up my Sylvaneth and started using Gnarlroot for a Stormcast wizard. The range and impact damage of the comet can seriously deter your opponent from going places or just hit some critical heroes instantly. It's not very hard to call in and it works well enough.

Which Comet spell?

 jreilly89 wrote:
Which Comet spell?

- Everblaze Comet (100)
- Celestian Vortex (40)
- Dais Arcanum (40)

Were these released in the new Stormcast book? Or a separate publication? Nighthaunt got three as well, which I've not heard much about.

EDIT #8: Celestrian Vortex doesn't seem bad. 12 @ 6+ mortals within 1" + -1 to hit for shooting within 6". Rando predation notwithstanding.

- Salvage

All the Stormcast specific spells are in the new Battletome. (Same w/ Nighthaunt)

For completness, here's the Nighthaunt ones:



- Mortalis Terminexus (60)
- Shyish Reaper (40)
- Vault of Souls (40)

Not overly impressive, given that they're all predatory. Terminexus (hour glass?) has some potential I guess, as it can heal or hurt depending, and the other two doing possible damage per model not unit is a thing. But as noted damage dealing predatory spells aren't topping the Endless list.

- Salvage

Scythe to proxy the pendulum, hourglass to proxy the cogs.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Scythe to proxy the pendulum, hourglass to proxy the cogs.

Nailed it

- Salvage

Anyone got a page reference for the rule that limits you to one endless spell of any one type per player in a match? Since I spent the last 20mins trying to find it in both the main rule book and the MS book and can't find it I figure its one of those things worth mentioning enough times to drive home where this statment is in the rules (Esp as the Endless Spell page actually suggests you can cast as many as you've models for on the ES page itself)

 Overread wrote:
Anyone got a page reference for the rule that limits you to one endless spell of any one type per player in a match? Since I spent the last 20mins trying to find it in both the main rule book and the MS book and can't find it I figure its one of those things worth mentioning enough times to drive home where this statment is in the rules (Esp as the Endless Spell page actually suggests you can cast as many as you've models for on the ES page itself)

Is this what you're looking for? From page 48 of the General's Handbook (Picking Your Army):

A player cannot take the same endless spell model more than once for their army, but can take any number of different endless spell models (for example, you could not take two Balewind Vortex models).

Thanks Ghaz!!
I recalled it being in a very daft place (ergo not on the Endless Spell page nor in the Pitched play page in the MS book).

Page 310in the big rule book (middle column first paragraph).

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Which Comet spell?

- Everblaze Comet (100)
- Celestian Vortex (40)
- Dais Arcanum (40)

Were these released in the new Stormcast book? Or a separate publication? Nighthaunt got three as well, which I've not heard much about.

EDIT #8: Celestrian Vortex doesn't seem bad. 12 @ 6+ mortals within 1" + -1 to hit for shooting within 6". Rando predation notwithstanding.

- Salvage

That's the one~! It's 100 points just like the sun, but I feel like this one is MUCH more useful. a 36" cast range can drop this right in the middle of the enemy deployment zone at turn 1. It can't be moved because it's not predatory and just..doesn't move. Lastly, it's simple enough to cast that you can bring it back if they get rid of it. Honestly them dispelling it once it's out is the bigger mistake. It's far more annoying to have it dropped on you than it is to leave it alone and move away. So drop it on an objective and force them to do so. The only big problem is that you need a stormcast wizard to actually use it. So only my Sylvaneth can use it for now.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:
Cogs - Exceptionally good for certain armies (Orruks, Death, Sigmarites etc) that specialize in close combat or deep striking. But, have the downside that if up against a similar army, you are also helping the enemy. Ex. My Khorne army loves it if you bring this. You help me just as much as yourself.

Basing spell performance off a player deliberately using it to harm their chances is like rating a predatory spell assuming the summoning player ran it through their own guys.

Well the first part of statements says that it can be good fro certain armies like Orruks, Death, and Sigmarites that deepstrike etc. They didn't deliberately use it to harm themselves. But there is a balance to be weighed before using it against certain armies. Against my Tzeentch, it's a great choice to close the gap and get in my face right away. Against something like Khorne, you might want to think twice is what I am getting at. It might be pure upside, or it might have some downside to be considered before casting. Which is why the cogs is a "good" spell and not a "great" one, in my opinion,

- VardenV2

You pick between board wide +2" move/charge OR and extra cast for that wizard & re-rolled saves. The latter makes it better for Tzeentch than it is for most, even; a LoC with another spell and re-rollable 4+ armor is quite strong. If you pick the movement buff against Khorne then yeah, it's probably bad. If you summon a predatory spell and send it through your own guys that's bad too. But it's ridiculous to judge the spells based on the potential of a player deliberately screwing themselves.

I think you're missing the point of my argument here. Let's say you are playing a 'deep strike' heavy Sigmarite army, and you have brought the Cogs to help you get those charges off. I am playing Khorne or Ironjawz. You activate the +2" move and charge bonus on the turn you drop in a large amount of units, hoping they get the charge off with the +2." Let's say, a few of your units don't make the charge. All of my Khorne or Ironjawz stuff now has the same buff, and it is a BAD thing for you. So, you have to think if you want to use the +2" charge bonus or not. Or maybe hold some of your stuff back and just use the +1 spell, whihc may not be that useful. It is not an auto-use. That is what I am getting at. They are a great utility spell but they CAN help your opponent depending on what he/she is playing. Nobody is going to deliberately hinder themselves. But they may help themselves AND the opponent and come out on the losing side of things if luck doesn't go their way.

 VardenV2 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:
Cogs - Exceptionally good for certain armies (Orruks, Death, Sigmarites etc) that specialize in close combat or deep striking. But, have the downside that if up against a similar army, you are also helping the enemy. Ex. My Khorne army loves it if you bring this. You help me just as much as yourself.

Basing spell performance off a player deliberately using it to harm their chances is like rating a predatory spell assuming the summoning player ran it through their own guys.

Well the first part of statements says that it can be good fro certain armies like Orruks, Death, and Sigmarites that deepstrike etc. They didn't deliberately use it to harm themselves. But there is a balance to be weighed before using it against certain armies. Against my Tzeentch, it's a great choice to close the gap and get in my face right away. Against something like Khorne, you might want to think twice is what I am getting at. It might be pure upside, or it might have some downside to be considered before casting. Which is why the cogs is a "good" spell and not a "great" one, in my opinion,

- VardenV2

You pick between board wide +2" move/charge OR and extra cast for that wizard & re-rolled saves. The latter makes it better for Tzeentch than it is for most, even; a LoC with another spell and re-rollable 4+ armor is quite strong. If you pick the movement buff against Khorne then yeah, it's probably bad. If you summon a predatory spell and send it through your own guys that's bad too. But it's ridiculous to judge the spells based on the potential of a player deliberately screwing themselves.

I think you're missing the point of my argument here. Let's say you are playing a 'deep strike' heavy Sigmarite army, and you have brought the Cogs to help you get those charges off. I am playing Khorne or Ironjawz. You activate the +2" move and charge bonus on the turn you drop in a large amount of units, hoping they get the charge off with the +2." Let's say, a few of your units don't make the charge. All of my Khorne or Ironjawz stuff now has the same buff, and it is a BAD thing for you. So, you have to think if you want to use the +2" charge bonus or not. Or maybe hold some of your stuff back and just use the +1 spell, whihc may not be that useful. It is not an auto-use. That is what I am getting at. They are a great utility spell but they CAN help your opponent depending on what he/she is playing. Nobody is going to deliberately hinder themselves. But they may help themselves AND the opponent and come out on the losing side of things if luck doesn't go their way.

You're saying that an extra spell & re-roll all failed saves "may not be that useful". I... don't have a response for that.

One of the Tzeentchiest things I can think of would be a model with the Paradoxical Shield with +2 to save rolls but rerolling successful saves AND the Cogs for rerolling failed saves.

If you deep strike your stuff but fail all the changes, it’s not going to matter that much if the enemy has +2 move.

Well the faq has nerfed the Geminids and the Spellportal, though who couldn't see that coming. Even with the nerf they are still both some great spells. At least now the Geminids are in line with the other D3 damage spells meaning there is actually a reason to take something like Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Well the faq has nerfed the Geminids and the Spellportal, though who couldn't see that coming. Even with the nerf they are still both some great spells. At least now the Geminids are in line with the other D3 damage spells meaning there is actually a reason to take something like Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws.

Im glad it got nerf, if it didnt i would just take them every game and nothing else, they were way to good.