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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Hi guys, looking for some assistance building a list.

I recently got my ass handed to me big time at the Warhammer World 40k GT Heat 1 and hope to do better at the next one!

I dont play often (mostly just paint) and went just to get some games in. The competition was very stiff and I got 5 straight losses (tabled 3 times).

I did not feel I had a chance of winning any of the games I played and do not want to repeat this experience.

Here is the list I took:

Word Bearer Battalion
Chaos Lord Jump Pack 2x Lightning claws - Warlord
Chaos Lord on Jugger Axe of Blind Fury

10 Cultists Assault weapons
20 Cultists Autoguns
10 Chaos Marines with 2 plasma guns in a Rhino

5 Chaos Terminators 4 combi-plas 1 H/flamer all power axes
Helbrute MM & Fist
Helbrute Plasma & Fist

Word Bearer Spearhead
Deamon Prince wings warp bolter Warptime power

5 Havocs H/Bolters
5 Havocs Autocannons
5 Havocs Missiles launchers

I felt like I had brought a knife to a gun fight!

Main issues I identified were a lack of mobility and no hard hitting units.

I am not expecting to win the heat but I need to drastically change my list to at least have a good game. Qualifying would be a bonus but from 5 losses to trying for 3+ wins seems a big leap!

Here is what I have come up with:

Word Bearer Battalion
Deamon Prince wings bolter and Miasma Power
Sorcerer Jump pack Presience and warp time
10 cultists
10 cultists
10 cultists
1 Spawn

Renegade Knight Det
Armiger with Thermal spear, chain cleaver and Meltagun
Armiger with Thermal spear, chain cleaver and Meltagun
Knight with RFBC, Chainsword and Stormspear Pod

Super Heavy Aux
Mortarion

11CP, not sure who to make Warlord. Probably Deamon Prince.

Mort, prince and Sorc all start together oposite biggest threat he has. Jump forward 12", they both buff Mort with Miasma (-1 hit) and Presience (+1 hit) if Imperial opponent for more Death to the False Emp chances then warp time him forward. Use chaos familiar strategy to give him death hex power and cast if what he wants to charge has an invun. Cast blades of putrefaction for extra damage.

The 3 Knights move as far forward as the can and unleash everything using the reroll all hits stratagem on main knight. Morty shoots and charges biggest threat. Death to false now triggers on a 5.

Hopefully 3 Knights plus Morty to the face will at least cause a few problems for people!

Please let me know what you think!
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Your problem with your first list was that it wasn't optimised at all. It was all over the place.

Great lists are built around power, flexibility and durability. (I've simplified things, but you'll get the jist of it, because I could write over a hundred pages and still do a hundred more if I went in proper detail)

The basis of building a tournament worthy winning list is around these principles:

In terms of power it must be able to deal with all three of these elements:

Anti-hordes
Anti-MEQs (Space Marine Equivalents)
Anti-Tank (+ MC = Monstrous Creatures)

Which are then split in three further categories.

Gunlines
FAF (Fast As F#@K armies)
WTF (Where The F#@K armies) Basically, ones that rely on stacking negative shooting modifiers against you like any Eldar armies to ensure you never hit them.

In terms of flexibility:

How well can it rapidly redeploy from one side of the map to the other during the game?

How will your army work if you lose 30% of it in the first turn and you haven't had your first turn yet?

In terms of durability:

How well does it cope against the onslaught of other armies and lists that are considered top tier? Whether it's surviving first turn damages or while holding an objective.

How well does it stand up to other armies when they get first turn (because your chances of going first are pretty much 50/50 and you should NEVER rely on going first to win games. Always prepare to go second, because when you're prepared for the worst, then winning becomes that much easier.

When you understand the game well enough, you know one thing. Some games are won by who gets first turn. It's just how the game is made.

For example, if I gained sufficient LOS (Line of Sight) to all your units on the field and was within range with my Cadian tank army and used the relic of lost Cadia. I'd have a pretty good chance of wiping out about 70% of your army reliably in just one turn, leaving you just with a half dead knight, a sorcerer and a daemon prince.

And what if I used a Tau army with 4 hammerhead tanks with Ion cannons and 2 riptides and pathfinders. Chances are, you wouldn't do well, even if you got first turn.

I think you get the picture, but before I or anyone else helps you, I think we need to address the biggest question first.

What are you prepared to do to be a better player to get a better result in your next tournament?

Are you willing to only play Chaos?

Are you willing to spent money on an entire new army. Whether it be Chaos or another?

Once we have the answers to those first 2 questions. Then, we will be able to help you better. Wouldn't you agree?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 12:29:51


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Thanks for the detailed reply.

As I stated I mostly paint and dont get to play often so alot of that got me thinking!

I am not looking to purely net list a killer army to win. I just want help to bring something a bit more competitive.

I am willing to buy new models but my biggest constraint is time. It is less than 2 months till the next heat and I am working away from home at least 2 weeks in that time. I simply cannot start a whole new army.

Also, as I enjoy painting I do not want to 3 colour units just to play!

Everything in my 2 lists above is built and painted other than the Armigers - just bought those.

Also painted are 10 more chaos marines and a rhino, 3 plague drones with spitters, 5 raptors with 2 melta(not quite finished).

I have about 10 plague marines built but not painted plus the starter set for Death Guard unbuilt.

From your reply I can see my Morty list is very binary - I get first turn and can hit hard or I dont get it an you can focus on just a few units.

It also does not have great horde killing ability.

Mobility and potential damage on big units is pretty good though!

From everything I saw at Heat 1 there was ALOT of armour put onto the field and first turn shooting was pretty crippling from alot of armies.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Dudley, UK

I'm no expert and only tend to play at events now, so take my advice with a pinch of salt

If it was me, I would be thinking about the lists and players that beat me and try and work out if it was something I played wrong, something my opponents did much better than me or if it was something that their armies let them do a lot better because of what they could do. I would also be thinking about what common trends were in the lists and if it was something that my army would be really good against or not.

So what lists did you face over the Heat and how did they beat you? Was all the results due to you being tabled or due to your opponent winning on points/objectives?

Also what models do you have available?

Stuffem, Tankem, Ammeran

My Ramblings - http://ineptusgameus.blogspot.com/

In the West Midlands, UK? PM me if you want a game! 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





First game was against Harlequins.
He first turn charged with 3 bike units. Tied up most of my havocs.
I charged the bikes with my close combat units and wiped them out. His second turn he multi charged most of my army with 4? units of clowns all from transports plus characters.
A reasonable fight but I never got out of my own deployement zone!

Second game was against Guard.
3 Leman Russ battle tanks, 3 Vanquisher? tank destroyer Tank commanders, 3 Artemis Hell Hounds and about 6 squads of guards.
He got first turn again and took out my havocs, I ran forward, second turn he pounded me again and I had nothing left to hurt tanks. Jumped around next 2 turns scoring as much as I could but he tabled me and I barely scratched his paint.

Third game was Custodes and Marines
Big squad of bikes, shield captain on bike, 4 Allarus termies, cant remember the rest - definately a primaris psycher plus some incepters.
Did a bit better in this one, got lucky and took down his bikes with shooting early on. His captain on bike kicked my ass big time though! 3++ rerolling is tough!

4th game was a mixed chaos army. 20 pink horrors, 20 bloodletters, 2 squads of bezerkers in rhinos Kharn with 1 and a Khorne lord of skulls.
Made a few mistakes in this game and opponent positioned well. Had no answer to the Lord of skulls so tried to ignore it. Was a close game but he scored everything at the end, think I was tabled.

5th was admech. 4 big robots all shooty, 3 destroyers with grav, 2 sniper assasins, a dunecrawler, Cawl, loads of normal guys.
We set up, he got first turn, I lifted 1/2 my army up before I got my first turn!
60 shots from the robot squad plus 15 from the destroyers took out all my shooty units, i think he also killed 1 brute and the big cultist squad first turn.
it was all over that first shooting phase. Everything hitting on 3's rerolling all misses was brutal. Think I only killed about 300 points worth all game.
I played on but was tabled turn 3 I think.

Listed the models I have above and am willing to buy more as required, mostly limited by time as to what I can add.

I can see that I did not have enough good anti tank, and the havocs I brought were an easy target.

Trends in lists were brutal first turn shooting!

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Dudley, UK

Hopefully I don't come across as too much an armchair general here! Looking at the games I think the problems you had are.....

# Deployment issues (having things being able to be multi charged, not using Cultists to act as a speed bump, not thinking what happens if you don't get first turn)
# Limited Anti Tank
# Limited Movement

Some of these we can fix by buying new models but for me the deployment one is only fixed through experience. Do you get chance to watch games? Might be worth watching a few reports on YouTube or on the Warhammer TV and commentating on them to yourself to see how you would play it. Also it depends on how much you want to stick with your theme vs being effective as some of the really effective armies don't look like armies.

Personally, as you are using Word Bearers I would be thinking about...

Daemons
Have a Daemon Detachment as it gives you access to some of the cool stuff they can do. Having blobs of Bloodletters turning up using the Denizens of the Warp stratagem means your opponent will have to deploy differently and the amount of attacks they can churn out is scary!

Thousand Sons
A Thousand Sons Detachment could be cool. Similar to above, using a load of Tzaangor and popping out the the webway is scary plus you get access to different powers. Personally I think the Thousand Sons are a lot stronger than people give them credit but that's mainly if you turn the army into a Age of Sigmar type army by only taking Daemons and Tzaangor!

Renegade Knights
You could possibly add in some Armigers to help give you some punch. The Warglaives seem a nice option as they are fast and can turn heavily armoured targets to molten ruin quickly!

As for your army, I would either ditch the Helbrutes or make them long ranged (Lascannons) and have a lot of them. Also I would bulk up your Chaos Space Marine squads if you can. I think a nice example of the sort of list you might want to run was on game four of the coverage of Heat one on Warhammer TV twitch stream.

It's tough to offer advice as I know what it's like having limited time as you won't want to change your army too much.

Stuffem, Tankem, Ammeran

My Ramblings - http://ineptusgameus.blogspot.com/

In the West Midlands, UK? PM me if you want a game! 
   
Made in it
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





terminators in competitive sucks, you dont play the best chaos has... DP's ,then you keep playing world bearers probably the worst legion to play right now, why play world bearers just to re roll morale when you can play either black legion for morale immunity or Iron warriors for the same? Why hellbrutes with plasma? play them with twin laser and missiles at least they can damage something, you are too slow, you might play or a large blob of alpha legion cultists to infiltrate or play a demon detachment with nurglings (they can infiltrate as well), my 2 cents. If you keep playing that list, outside casual game ,u will keep lost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/17 19:16:51


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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Cheers for the input guys!

Watched game 4 and see what you mean about the list.

I think I want to go more mech rather than deamons but he played really well.

With why I play Word Bearers over other Legions is because they are painted as Word Bearers! Rules pack clearly states if painted as a chapter/legion you MUST play as them. I do not have time to paint a new army due to rules changes.

I know the legion trait sucks and I am disadvantaged by it but I have a large army and I love how it looks.

The help I am after is how to optimise it!

Think alot of the analysis is similar to what I experienced. Jugger sucked, as did brutes. My only threat was havocs so they were killed quick each game leaving me with no ranged damage dealers.

I think the core of new army will be a renegade Knight plus 2 armigers. Not sure if it will be morty or another knight with them. Not sure i can paint the 2 armigers plus another knight in time. 1 Knight plus Morty all painted up already!
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Dudley, UK

Tremble wrote:
I know the legion trait sucks and I am disadvantaged by it but I have a large army and I love how it looks.


This I think is key here. I think it's easy for a lot of people to suggest stuff but at end of the day, it will be more likely using a completely new army which is not what you want. I've had a think and I think this is an option depending on your time. This is going off what you have listed above plus painting up some new models.


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Word Bearers

+ HQ +
Chaos Lord: 2x Lightning Claws

+ Fast Attack +
5 Raptors: 2 x Meltaguns
5 Raptors: 2 x Meltaguns
5 Raptors: 2 x Meltaguns

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Word Bearers

+ HQ +
Daemon Prince
Sorcerer with Jump Pack

+ Troops +
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Questor Traitoris) ++

+ Lord of War +

Renegade Armiger: Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
Renegade Armiger: Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
Renegade Knight: Meltagun, Reaper chainsword, Stormspear Rocket Pod, RFBC



You will need to tweak but this could be up your street. You can drop the Raptors in to try and take out or cripple something which might effect your knights and they can move around a lot. This might win you a game or two

Stuffem, Tankem, Ammeran

My Ramblings - http://ineptusgameus.blogspot.com/

In the West Midlands, UK? PM me if you want a game! 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I really like that list Gaz!

Not sure if I can paint build and paint all the Raptors in time but is definately something to work towards. I have started painting 5 Raptors but got so frustrated with how fiddly they are to paint they got shelved part done!

I also have 10 bloodletters painted, after watching the battle report mentioned above I am tempted to try a few deamons.

Maybe a 20 strong unit of bloodletters plus a cheap herald. Nice deepstriking unit with almost guaranteed charge with banner of blood.

Do you think using Morty is a bad idea?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Dudley, UK

Tremble wrote:
I really like that list Gaz!


Thanks. Not sure it's mega competitive but should be fun to use and has the right theme which is something I think you want to have as well

Not sure if I can paint build and paint all the Raptors in time but is definately something to work towards. I have started painting 5 Raptors but got so frustrated with how fiddly they are to paint they got shelved part done!

I also have 10 bloodletters painted, after watching the battle report mentioned above I am tempted to try a few deamons.

Maybe a 20 strong unit of bloodletters plus a cheap herald. Nice deepstriking unit with almost guaranteed charge with banner of blood.


I think if you dropped the Outrider detachment and had another Battalion using models from the Daemon codex you could try....

HQ
Bloodmaster
Poxbringer

Troops
30 Bloodletters with Standard and Musician
10 Plaguebearers with Standard and Musician
10 Plaguebearers with Standard and Musician

This lets you pop the Bloodletters and Bloodmaster in for charging something and should give you plently of command points to try and make this happen as if I remember correctly there is a Khorne Daemon one that lets you charge with 3D6 (you still need to be in 12" though). Plaguebearers are for helping contesting/holding Objectives

Do you think using Morty is a bad idea?


No I think he is good but I have no experience with him and not sure he fits the theme of your list. At end of day up to you if you want to use him as he's a nice model and it's your list

Stuffem, Tankem, Ammeran

My Ramblings - http://ineptusgameus.blogspot.com/

In the West Midlands, UK? PM me if you want a game! 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I have narrowed it down to 3 lists so hopefully you can give opinions on which is likely to be the best!

List 1:

Chaos Marine Battalion
Jump pack Lord with powerfist
Jump pack Sorc

3x 10 Cultists

Chaos Knight Det
Knight with Battle cannon and chain sword
2 Warglaives melta, swords and stubbers
1 armiger twin autocannons

Mortarian

This gives the most command points (11) so allows use of all the helpfull strategems plus has some cultists as chaff/objective holders. Also the armiger with autocannons is only in this list. Would need to buy and paint this sharpish though!

List 2
Chaos marine speahead?
Jump pack Sorc

5 havocs 4 missile launchers
5 havocs 4 autocannons
5 havocs 4 H bolters

Chaos Knight Det
Knight with Battle cannon and chain sword
2 Warglaives melta, swords and stubbers

Mortarian

Lots of dakka but maybe a bit one dimensional. have all this ready and painted though! 7 command points is not alot when I know I want spend alot on strategems!

List 3
Death guard outrider det
Chaos lord - bolt pistol/chainsword

Bloat drone 2x spitters
Bloat drone 2x spitters
Bloat drone fleshmower

Chaos Knight Det
Knight with Battle cannon and chain sword
2 Warglaives melta, swords and stubbers

Mortarian

Only 7 command points again, no access to warptime or death hex but i think the drones may pair up with the knights quite well. also leaves no good targets for anti infantry weapons. Lord is just the cheapest HQ to make it fit!


Any opinions between the 3 lists?

Mant thanks!
   
Made in us
Stalwart Ultramarine Tactical Marine






I am quite new so don't take my word, but the easiest way I've seen to turn a CSM list from honest to broken is adding Obliterators.. the more the merrier, backed with a good amount of CP, they pray slanesh and shoot two times...

Knights are also cool, but they must be on the field so basically if you don't get turn one.. same goes for Mortarion, I cannot give you a formula but if you plan to field big guys you have to be sure you have plenty of them, look at the IG opponent, how many leman russes he had.. even if he doesn't go first, he has enough to punch back. The other way to go is to hide as much as possible during deployment and wait turn 2 (better strategists than me will disagree but for simple minds like mine those are the two ways to go)

   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Too less bodies for my liking. I'd take either Mortarian or the Knight.

I wish we had a GT in Germany. The last one was 2008 with 3 heats. The tourneys took place in the German headquarter in Düsseldorf. The heats were really tough. But the final was more a tourney with friendly games, too relaxed for my liking and not really worth it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/17 08:32:05


Former moderator 40kOnline

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