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Its pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos in order to gain more power and create the Primarch's, I wonder how he hasn't fallen to chaos (I know he's the melon-fething Emperor) but even he said to Magnus that you can't deal with the powers of the warp and stay whole, I wonder what he lost, or maybe he was saying what normal mortals lose to chaos. I think that maybe he lost the ability to reincarnate. Maybe he retains autonomy but when he 'really' dies, Drach'nyen will absorb him, keeping him prisoner so he can't reincarnate like a faustian bargain.

I think he lost most of his critical thinking. That explains most of what he did after making the Primarchs

The deal with Chaos is the great unsolved mystery on the Heresy - everything else is staring right at you (including the whole ‘why was he a gak dad’ thing).

It could also be two different deals - one before creating the Primarchs and one at Molech halfway through the crusade - or they could be the same thing because of timely-wimey warp shenanigans.

We know that, whatever the deal WAS, he was planning to betray chaos and renege on it - that’s the reason for the plans to limit human interaction with the warp via anti-psyker controls and the webway.

In theory, the emperor’s original plan was:
- get whatever knowledge or power he needed by a deal with chaos
- use some of that power to create totally loyal generals who can do the conquering bit double quick
- as soon as the warp storms drop, the generals go out and conquer the galaxy, making religion and psychic powers illegal and starving chaos from retaliating once they realise his betrayal
- at the same time, the Emperor does the web way stuff using that previously nabbed power
- within a short time, chaos is starved of belief, the webway is under human control, and humanity can slowly and carefully mature into a psychic race without being eaten by daemons (his aims as per ‘The Sigillite’).

In that reality, we still have 20 different Primarchs, but they all get raised on Terra much like the Custodes are - more like peers or serious colleagues than a father/son relationship (again, like the Custodes) and with way more stable psyches!

In reality, the big issue here is Chaos Scattering the Primarchs - this not only means the emperor has to spend ages going and finding them (giving chaos more time to react against the webway plans), it also means that some are not really functioning as well as they could be (Antron, Lorgar, Curze) and, biggest of all, they all get raised in non-imperial human cultures who have various disagreements with how their ‘father’ should be, which leads to various resentments exploited by Chaos. As far as the emperor is concerned, the Primarchs and legions are jus tools, like the thunder warriors were.

But yeah, what the actual deal was is the important thing.

By Molech, chaos presumably already know that the Imperial truth is in effect, so it’s unlikely he stole all the power he needed then,

I like the idea that the emperor was powerful enough to create the Primarchs using the stuff of the Warp ANYWAY and that and the imperial truth made chaos well aware that they were fethed. Molech could then be a bargain to relent on chaos in return for the time, experience and power the emperor needed to be powerful enough to breach the webway (after all, that’s what Horus gets at moloch - thousand of years of experience). Maybe chaos thought he wanted to use that power to become a chais god himself, but instead he uses it to save humanity from the warp?

pm713 wrote:
I think he lost most of his critical thinking. That explains most of what he did after making the Primarchs

lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
The deal with Chaos is the great unsolved mystery on the Heresy - everything else is staring right at you (including the whole ‘why was he a gak dad’ thing).

It could also be two different deals - one before creating the Primarchs and one at Molech halfway through the crusade - or they could be the same thing because of timely-wimey warp shenanigans.

We know that, whatever the deal WAS, he was planning to betray chaos and renege on it - that’s the reason for the plans to limit human interaction with the warp via anti-psyker controls and the webway.

In theory, the emperor’s original plan was:
- get whatever knowledge or power he needed by a deal with chaos
- use some of that power to create totally loyal generals who can do the conquering bit double quick
- as soon as the warp storms drop, the generals go out and conquer the galaxy, making religion and psychic powers illegal and starving chaos from retaliating once they realise his betrayal
- at the same time, the Emperor does the web way stuff using that previously nabbed power
- within a short time, chaos is starved of belief, the webway is under human control, and humanity can slowly and carefully mature into a psychic race without being eaten by daemons (his aims as per ‘The Sigillite’).

In that reality, we still have 20 different Primarchs, but they all get raised on Terra much like the Custodes are - more like peers or serious colleagues than a father/son relationship (again, like the Custodes) and with way more stable psyches!

In reality, the big issue here is Chaos Scattering the Primarchs - this not only means the emperor has to spend ages going and finding them (giving chaos more time to react against the webway plans), it also means that some are not really functioning as well as they could be (Antron, Lorgar, Curze) and, biggest of all, they all get raised in non-imperial human cultures who have various disagreements with how their ‘father’ should be, which leads to various resentments exploited by Chaos. As far as the emperor is concerned, the Primarchs and legions are jus tools, like the thunder warriors were.

But yeah, what the actual deal was is the important thing.

By Molech, chaos presumably already know that the Imperial truth is in effect, so it’s unlikely he stole all the power he needed then,

I like the idea that the emperor was powerful enough to create the Primarchs using the stuff of the Warp ANYWAY and that and the imperial truth made chaos well aware that they were fethed. Molech could then be a bargain to relent on chaos in return for the time, experience and power the emperor needed to be powerful enough to breach the webway (after all, that’s what Horus gets at moloch - thousand of years of experience). Maybe chaos thought he wanted to use that power to become a chais god himself, but instead he uses it to save humanity from the warp?

The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.

or thats what Horus says, presumably chaos told him that so we can't take that as gospel. I'm honestly half expecting the HH series to end with a suprise revelation that suggests there are things at work here we didn't know about.

BrianDavion wrote:
or thats what Horus says, presumably chaos told him that so we can't take that as gospel. I'm honestly half expecting the HH series to end with a suprise revelation that suggests there are things at work here we didn't know about.

It's not what Horus said, its what Alivia Surka said that's important. She traveled to Molech with the Emperor and other perpetuals and took the gateway by force and after it, it was her job to seal the place. The gateway to the Warp provides power, the same power that Horus took, so we know the Emperor did make the deal and we know what he got out of it. All Horus said was that he bargained with the forces rather than took the power by force:

"Horus smiled at the extra vowel at the end of the honorific. A natural development, given the power that now filled him. Power that had almost cost him his life to obtain. Not that to look at him anyone would know that. The many hurts he had suffered to win Molech had healed years ago it seemed. It was hard to be sure. His sons told him he’d only been gone moments, how could he tell them different? Molech was a far distant memory to Horus now. He’d fought wars, slain monsters and defied gods in those moments. He’d wrested the power of those same gods at the heads of vast armies of daemons. He’d fought in battles that would rage unchecked for all eternity. He’d won a thousand kingdoms within the empyrean, billions of vassals to do with as he pleased, but he’d refused it. Every pleasure and prize was his for the taking, but he’d denied them all. He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god. ‘Sire, what are your orders?’ said Ezekyle. Horus stared at the veil of stars, as though he could see all the way from Molech to Terra. He extended a clawed hand, as though already cupping the precious bauble of humanity’s cradle. ‘I am coming for you, father,’ said Horus. "

Plus was talking to himself, why would you need to take his word for it, why would he be lying to himself. (and lied to about getting powers not being a god as people keep mistaking)

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Finally, after everything, Horus was a god.

He was lying to himself

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.

When the emperor entered and came out WAY more powerful, it was mid-crusade - as we know from the same book that some Primarchs were present (and possibly had their memories altered after the fact)

 Groslon wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Finally, after everything, Horus was a god.

He was lying to himself

I think there's a mix of Horus being lied to as well. He thinks his power is completely his own but Chaos doesn't do that. He might have a longer leash than other servants but he's still on a leash.

 Groslon wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Finally, after everything, Horus was a god.

He was lying to himself

I never said he was a god, he was wrong on that but the point I'm talking about is that he got the powers that the Emperor had gotten.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Groslon wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Finally, after everything, Horus was a god.

He was lying to himself

I think there's a mix of Horus being lied to as well. He thinks his power is completely his own but Chaos doesn't do that. He might have a longer leash than other servants but he's still on a leash.

He wasn't lied to about getting powers which is the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.

When the emperor entered and came out WAY more powerful, it was mid-crusade - as we know from the same book that some Primarchs were present (and possibly had their memories altered after the fact)

No it wasn't, it was the dark age of technology, then he went again a century before the Heresy to fortify the place so no one would ever be able to enter the gateway.

"Lupercal walked in a circle, jabbing a fist into his palm with every sentence. ‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here in humble guise and found the gateway to
a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the
mysteries of creation.’ Horus was radiant as he spoke, as though he had already ascended to a divine plane of reality. ‘But the Emperor had no intention of honouring His debt to the gods. He turned on them, taking their gifts and blending them with His genecraft to give birth to demigods. The Emperor condemns the warp as unnatural, but only so no other dares wield it. The blood of the immaterial realm flows in my veins. It flows in all our veins, for as I am the Emperor’s son, you are the Sons of Horus, and the secret of our genesis was unlocked upon Molech. The gateway to that power is in Lupercalia, far beneath the mountain rock. Sealed away from the light by a jealous god who knew that someday one of His sons would seek to surpass His deeds.’ And finally Aximand understood why they had come here, why they had expended such resources and defied all military logic to follow in the footsteps of a god. This would be the moment they rose to challenge the Emperor with the very weapons He had kept for
Himself. This was to be the apotheosis of them all." The great diaspora means the dark age of technology

Seems really stupid to wait centuries to fortify something important especially in a time when anyone could wander in.

As a point what makes you think the Emperor isn't "corrupted" in a sense? Someone falls to Khorne by getting absorbed by the joy of battle and rage which is how Khorne corrupts.
The Emperor is a Chaos God in a way. He comes from a mass sacrifice to battle Chaos so just as Khorne lives for and off bloodshed the Emperor lives by and for battling Chaos. Which would make him incorruptible to the other gods in the Warp as they don't change like that.

It's a nice theory anyway.

pm713 wrote:
Seems really stupid to wait centuries to fortify something important especially in a time when anyone could wander in.

As a point what makes you think the Emperor isn't "corrupted" in a sense? Someone falls to Khorne by getting absorbed by the joy of battle and rage which is how Khorne corrupts.
The Emperor is a Chaos God in a way. He comes from a mass sacrifice to battle Chaos so just as Khorne lives for and off bloodshed the Emperor lives by and for battling Chaos. Which would make him incorruptible to the other gods in the Warp as they don't change like that.

It's a nice theory anyway.

He did fortify it, but then the age of strife happened... The gateway was still sealed, however, but after the age of strife he needed to obviously fortify it again. It was millenniums after not centuries. I didn't say he wasn't corrupted, but he'd act more chaosy if he was, which is why I think he just lost something, because he did betray the gods by not giving them the Primarchs but then again Magnus was able to defy chaos for a while, maybe the Emperor will one day get spiky armour.

I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.

Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at least the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.

w1zard wrote:
I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.

Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at ;east the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.

There is some cannon continuity errors some say he made a pact, the vengeful spirit version he stole the powers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.

Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at ;east the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.

There is some cannon continuity errors some say he made a pact, the vengeful spirit version he stole the powers.

How reliable are the sources that say he made a pact with chaos? Could they be simply misunderstanding or lying that the emperor stole these powers?

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.

Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at ;east the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.

There is some cannon continuity errors some say he made a pact, the vengeful spirit version he stole the powers.

How reliable are the sources that say he made a pact with chaos? Could they be simply misunderstanding or lying that the emperor stole these powers?

The first heretic:

"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade. The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees. ‘Our father – all of our fathers – are the spawn of ancient blood rituals and forbidden science.’

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The first heretic:

"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade. The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees. ‘Our father – all of our fathers – are the spawn of ancient blood rituals and forbidden science.’

Like I said, how are we so sure he is telling the truth? He could be telling lies just to stir the pot, or he could be telling the truth from his point of view but the person who told him lied to him. A Word Bearer chaplain is pretty low on my list of credibility when it comes to the emperor.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The first heretic:

"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade. The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees. ‘Our father – all of our fathers – are the spawn of ancient blood rituals and forbidden science.’

Like I said, how are we so sure he is telling the truth? He could be telling lies just to stir the pot, or he could be telling the truth from his point of view but the person who told him lied to him. A Word Bearer chaplain is pretty low on my list of credibility when it comes to the emperor.

In this point Erebus could be telling a lie but the original point that the Emperor took powers from the same place on Molech is definitely not a lie. The point of a bargain vs taking the power is just the point I was making to your original point that you thought that the Emperor only stole the power rather than bargained for them, as there are more versions of that in the lore. That the Emperor went to Molech to get powers is the absolute, though what he got and how he got the powers isn't fact because the Emperor has never said what he got from Molech but its pretty obvious that he got powers to make the Primarch's.

My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Andykp wrote:
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.

No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"

what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.

No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"

what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.

There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.

No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"

what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.

There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.

A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.

It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.

No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"

what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.

There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.

A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.

It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.

LOL yeah the Emperor just went lightyears across the galaxy in a one way ship with 6 perpetuals and went in to play jenga with the Chaos gods, then left Sureka there to guard it and returned with the great crusade erased the minds of the population and left a heavily fortified galaxy there. The gateway leads to the warp where Chaos bestows power on people, what on earth could he have been doing there...

 Formosa wrote:
A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.

It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.

Or not a deal at all... the emperor could have tangled with the chaos gods directly and stole the knowledge somehow.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.

It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.

Or not a deal at all... the emperor could have tangled with the chaos gods directly and stole the knowledge somehow.

Exactly what the novel said, he broke in and took power to make the Primarchs.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.

No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"

what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.

There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.

A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.

It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.

LOL yeah the Emperor just went lightyears across the galaxy in a one way ship with 6 perpetuals and went in to play jenga with the Chaos gods, then left Sureka there to guard it and returned with the great crusade erased the minds of the population and left a heavily fortified galaxy there. The gateway leads to the warp where Chaos bestows power on people, what on earth could he have been doing there...

It’s a portal to the realms of the chaos gods, not some run of the mill portal that can be opened but a stable fixed position that allows two way access, why was it so heavily fortified and not just closed? Only the emperor knows, perhaps he had a plan on returning some day, we will never know, All we have is the conjecture of one remaining perpetual that he based there and we don’t know if he even told her why he was there (very unlikely given his nature), so yep, we don’t know the nature of the deal he made.

Also I doubt it was for power, if what you say is correct then what would be the point, he had already made the primarchs, so why return to molech to gain more from the gods he had already betrayed, it doesn’t add up.

You are attempting to gleam intent by filling in the gaps yourself with little to no actual background information to support your claims.

Anyway at the end of the day we don't KNOW. we can make some guesses, but people need to stop taking every single flipping statement anyone makes in the HH series as "THE UNMITIGATED TRUTH" and use some critical thinking regarding the sources. Horus belives the Emperor entered the warp on Molech, and stole power from the Chaos gods. He belives this because thats what he's been told. the truth? We can't yet be 100% certain.

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.

Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.

Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.

No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"

what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.

There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.

A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.

It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.

LOL yeah the Emperor just went lightyears across the galaxy in a one way ship with 6 perpetuals and went in to play jenga with the Chaos gods, then left Sureka there to guard it and returned with the great crusade erased the minds of the population and left a heavily fortified galaxy there. The gateway leads to the warp where Chaos bestows power on people, what on earth could he have been doing there...

It’s a portal to the realms of the chaos gods, not some run of the mill portal that can be opened but a stable fixed position that allows two way access, why was it so heavily fortified and not just closed? Only the emperor knows, perhaps he had a plan on returning some day, we will never know, All we have is the conjecture of one remaining perpetual that he based there and we don’t know if he even told her why he was there (very unlikely given his nature), so yep, we don’t know the nature of the deal he made.

Also I doubt it was for power, if what you say is correct then what would be the point, he had already made the primarchs, so why return to molech to gain more from the gods he had already betrayed, it doesn’t add up.

You are attempting to gleam intent by filling in the gaps yourself with little to no actual background information to support your claims.

We know what Horus got from there, we know the gateways purpose. Sureka knew the Emperor got powers from the gateway even though she didn't go in, so no its not conjecture.

We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.