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2018/07/15 21:32:57
Subject: ATC Drama
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Get ready folks...another major event and another group of players caught cheating. Word coming off the floor is that a team comprised of "some of the top 40K players in the country" was booted for cheating after round 5. Waiting with popcorn for more details
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Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" |
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2018/07/15 23:06:18
Subject: ATC Drama
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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I was there, as a captain, I know most of the details.
Let's just say that some folks were not "happy".
I have heard that Shane and Co. were going to make a public statement about it though, and I respect them enough to wait for that before I speak anymore on it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 23:07:12
Full Frontal Nerdity |
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2018/07/15 23:43:49
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Well Tony G. was on this team as well just off the heels of the LVO incident. I'm just wondering when TO's are going to grow some and start banning people.
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Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" |
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2018/07/16 01:13:59
Subject: ATC Drama
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Well, I'm sure the online community will handle whatever happened with all our customary levelheadedness and reason.
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2018/07/16 01:25:39
Subject: ATC Drama
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Somethings I will comment on, that's not related to this.
I was incredibly disappointed with the quality of some of the armies present. The paint job on some of these were atrocious. One army had literally been entirely sprayed blue, gold sharpie on the trim, and a random red splotch thrown here or there. Wasn't based or anything.
I played against a team who placed in the top 5 last year, and the guy was using unpainted toy models for custodes. There were numerous instances of Proxies, and numerous instances of "conversions" that were no where even close to reasonable represenations of what they were. An ork player had "KMK's" that were 1.5" tall, for crying out loud. They were about the same size as a terminator, when the actual KMK model is closer to the size of a rhino.
I was not pleased with the lack of enforcement on those rules.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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2018/07/16 01:50:04
Subject: ATC Drama
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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That’s disappointing to say the least.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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2018/07/16 02:02:08
Subject: ATC Drama
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
Little Rock, Arkansas
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I would like to hear the details and allegations. I don’t really care who was on the team, just interested in the logistics of what they were doing.
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20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 |
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2018/07/16 02:24:33
Subject: ATC Drama
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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I heard about a magical combi bolter.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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2018/07/16 03:17:03
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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It centers around using items that were not in the list (not paid for), getting caught, apologizing and then doing it repeatedly in games afterwards again. Also slow playing to a win (didnt make it past turn 2 in 3 hours), things like that. Laughing about getting booted from the event and general bad sportsmanship. This is a summary of snippets I am getting from my two FLGS teams that were there and are currently discussing.
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Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" |
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2018/07/16 03:33:46
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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In professional sports, players caught cheating are usually suspended for a number of games, or outright banned. We should have a system in place like that for 40k. At least for ITC tournaments.
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2018/07/16 07:23:23
Subject: ATC Drama
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Dipping With Wood Stain
Sheep Loveland
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Any more info on this? Interested to see what exactly happened.
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40k: Thousand Sons World Eaters
30k: Imperial Fists 405th Company |
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2018/07/16 08:53:52
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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Douglas Bader
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quickfuze wrote:I'm just wondering when TO's are going to grow some and start banning people.
Never. We'll hear endless excuses for how nobody can prove it wasn't a mistake, I played that guy once and he was fun, bans are too harsh and might result in someone being upset after spending lots of money to travel, etc. Unless of course they aren't a popular member of the community, in which case they'll be banned forever because nobody cares about them.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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2018/07/16 08:55:37
Subject: ATC Drama
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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djones520 wrote:Somethings I will comment on, that's not related to this.
I was incredibly disappointed with the quality of some of the armies present. The paint job on some of these were atrocious. One army had literally been entirely sprayed blue, gold sharpie on the trim, and a random red splotch thrown here or there. Wasn't based or anything.
I played against a team who placed in the top 5 last year, and the guy was using unpainted toy models for custodes. There were numerous instances of Proxies, and numerous instances of "conversions" that were no where even close to reasonable represenations of what they were. An ork player had " KMK's" that were 1.5" tall, for crying out loud. They were about the same size as a terminator, when the actual KMK model is closer to the size of a rhino.
I was not pleased with the lack of enforcement on those rules.
That last sentence is my major problem with "competitive" 40k. Any event with enough participants will have its fair share of people trying to cheat or game the system, or who think the tournament rules don't apply to them. I think that's just the sad reality of the situation. However, if tournaments would enforce their rules I think we'd see things like this start to disappear. Quoting from the ATC Model Policy: "ALL models, for ALL game systems must be painted to a 3 color minimum standard unless otherwise specified in the event rules. This means that an honest attempt to paint all models MUST be exhibited and that 3 colors have not been simply applied to circumvent this policy." Also, point 2 in that policy: "Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule." Assuming the info above is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), we can pretty clearly see this policy is worthless.
The solution isn't rocket science. You make it absolutely clear to all participants in the run-up to the event that you intend to strictly enforce these rules. Then you do so. Yes, it's going to annoy people, probably quite a lot. You may have some angry gamers on your hands. But next year you won't. The same applies to using illegal lists and upgrades you haven't paid for. Especially in a team event there should be no excuse for having an incorrect army list - your own team can check its own lists to make sure everything is accurate. I hope that seeing a team actually getting disqualified might focus the minds of anyone else who thinks they can get away with cheating.
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2018/07/16 10:01:43
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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Dakka Veteran
Sweden
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Correctly painted and assembled models should be an entry barrier to be allowed to play.
Start with this:
https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Model-Requirements.pdf
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2018/07/16 10:04:00
Subject: ATC Drama
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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If anything the GW rules take it a step too far in my view with regard to subfaction official paint schemes. It kind of makes sense for marines since a proper chapter will have shouldepad icon differences and the like; but for most factions the "subfactions" are really just one or two rules differences and bonuses and nothing more. It's not the same as how space wolves are totally different to ultramarines.
Plus some "official schemes" are so similar its impossible to tlel them apart (Daughters of Khaine schemes, for example, are near identical and one that is the most different is based on skin tone and doesn't actually have any rules of its own anyway).
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2018/07/16 12:00:04
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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[DCM]
Sentient OverBear
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Before this thread blows up, just a reminder of Rule #1.
No personal attacks, be sure you have evidence to back things up, and just generally don't get all fired up and say mean things.
(No, I don't know what happened and don't know who was involved).
Thank you.
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DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++
Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k. Rule #1 - BBAP
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2018/07/16 12:41:17
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I have gone to ATC year after year.
this year was a nightmare. So much so, I will not be going back, and many other teams said the same.
Cheaters caught year after year, and never getting more than a slap on the wrist. It is sad really.
So, if I was to say a high profile player was caught blatantly cheating, i mean 100% not a mistake, blatant cheating, what is the first name that pops into everyones head?
Yup, that's the guy.
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2018/07/16 12:46:22
Subject: ATC Drama
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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meleti wrote:Well, I'm sure the online community will handle whatever happened with all our customary levelheadedness and reason.
Indeed
How sad is cheating at Warhammer, I mean at this point it's almost like Whose Line is it Anyway, the scores are all made up and the points don't matter.
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2018/07/16 12:48:05
Subject: ATC Drama
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Slap on the wrist? This team was kicked out. Given the parties involved, and past transgressions at other events, it's going to likely ruin some playing careers.
It's been less then 24 hours since the event finished up, and people are shooting off about how they're going to punish Dicehead about this, when Dicehead hasn't even been given a chance to tell their story.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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2018/07/16 12:55:44
Subject: ATC Drama
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I said slap on the wrist from a historical perspective. It is all they have ever gotten.
And to be fair, you left out the part where ATC said there was only going to be a "points reduction" and they didn't know how much, and kicked them out only after the backlash got more and more severe.
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2018/07/16 12:56:26
Subject: Re:ATC Drama
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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I'm basically amish and have limited internet during the weekends. Someone do a better job informing people on the who and what took place in all of this, please.
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2018/07/16 12:58:32
Subject: ATC Drama
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Clousseau
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Cheating has been a time honored tradition of tournaments since there were tournaments. Its only now that cameras expose a lot of it that we see more and more of it.
Tournament players want to legitimize their tournaments then cheaters need a blacklist.
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2018/07/16 12:58:43
Subject: ATC Drama
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Anglacon wrote:
I said slap on the wrist from a historical perspective. It is all they have ever gotten.
And to be fair, you left out the part where ATC said there was only going to be a "points reduction" and they didn't know how much, and kicked them out only after the backlash got more and more severe.
The points reduction removed them from contention of winning, and then acted on their follow up statement that any further issues would result in being kicked out. I was at the table next to them in the following round, where they got kicked out. It had nothing to do with pressure, it was because they were still slow playing, and violating the rules.
There was a lot more going on behind the scenes, because Shane was right. That team was not the only one cheating. They were the only one people were calling for blood for on though. The only one ultimatums were being forced on. When other top 10 teams were cheating, no one else was reporting it to Shane. People just wanted blood on this one team.
The event had other issues, and I can see why they were trying to get this situation exactly right. Because when the London GT banned the guy who was cheating, all everyone did was say it was in an attempt to cover up their short comings. And then they've got the issues with Best Coast Pairings utterly failing throughout the event, making each day go hours longer then it should have, people already super angry about then, and then this popped up, you mean to tell me they weren't thinking about that?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 13:04:49
Full Frontal Nerdity |
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2018/07/16 13:05:31
Subject: ATC Drama
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Water-Caste Negotiator
United States
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djones520 wrote: Anglacon wrote:
I said slap on the wrist from a historical perspective. It is all they have ever gotten.
And to be fair, you left out the part where ATC said there was only going to be a "points reduction" and they didn't know how much, and kicked them out only after the backlash got more and more severe.
The points reduction removed them from contention of winning, and then acted on their follow up statement that any further issues would result in being kicked out. I was at the table next to them in the following round, where they got kicked out. It had nothing to do with pressure, it was because they were still slow playing, and violating the rules.
There was a lot more going on behind the scenes, because Shane was right. That team was not the only one cheating. They were the only one people were calling for blood for on though. The only one ultimatums were being forced on. When other top 10 teams were cheating, no one else was reporting it to Shane. People just wanted blood on this one team.
Man, you're kind of derailing the thread saying you won't say anything about the tournament and who it was but then give out snippets which creates more questions and will probably start rumors. You need to either lay it out or say nothing at all.
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2018/07/16 13:05:54
Subject: ATC Drama
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Fixture of Dakka
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All to get that sweet tens of dollars in prizes that 40k tournaments are known for. I just don't get it, spending a ton of money on models, on travel, time off work in many cases.. all to cheat on a game when 40k has never been very competitive in all honesty (dubious rules, slow playing, arbitrary stuff like painting scores).
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Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500, |
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2018/07/16 13:07:54
Subject: ATC Drama
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Fine, Team Happy, led by Tony Grippando, was kicked out of ATC after the 4th round due to members of the team cheating, and slow playing. After being caught on it in round 3, a significant penalty was leveled and a judge was permanently stationed at their table. Round 4, slow play continued to occur, and they were shown the door.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 13:08:28
Full Frontal Nerdity |
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2018/07/16 13:09:09
Subject: ATC Drama
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Clousseau
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Kirasu wrote:All to get that sweet tens of dollars in prizes that 40k tournaments are known for. I just don't get it, spending a ton of money on models, on travel, time off work in many cases.. all to cheat on a game when 40k has never been very competitive in all honesty (dubious rules, slow playing, arbitrary stuff like painting scores).
Its more than that. Its internet fame. Internet fame is worth a ton to a lot of people.
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2018/07/16 13:10:28
Subject: ATC Drama
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Water-Caste Negotiator
United States
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djones520 wrote:Fine, Team Happy, led by Tony Grippando, was kicked out of ATC after the 4th round due to members of the team cheating, and slow playing. After being caught on it in round 3, a significant penalty was leveled and a judge was permanently stationed at their table. Round 4, slow play continued to occur, and they were shown the door.
Thank you
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2018/07/16 13:12:51
Subject: ATC Drama
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Fixture of Dakka
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auticus wrote: Kirasu wrote:All to get that sweet tens of dollars in prizes that 40k tournaments are known for. I just don't get it, spending a ton of money on models, on travel, time off work in many cases.. all to cheat on a game when 40k has never been very competitive in all honesty (dubious rules, slow playing, arbitrary stuff like painting scores).
Its more than that. Its internet fame. Internet fame is worth a ton to a lot of people.
Well they're obviously doing it wrong then, in this case.
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Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500, |
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2018/07/16 13:15:40
Subject: ATC Drama
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
Little Rock, Arkansas
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djones520 wrote:Fine, Team Happy, led by Tony Grippando, was kicked out of ATC after the 4th round due to members of the team cheating, and slow playing. After being caught on it in round 3, a significant penalty was leveled and a judge was permanently stationed at their table. Round 4, slow play continued to occur, and they were shown the door.
Man it seems that guy is well on his way to making his name forever synonymous with foul play. >.>
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20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 |
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