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So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:

- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle

HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.

So, any thoughts on a replacement?

The army is a kind of themed list which would be a little long winded to go into, and anything you suggest I could probably convert to fit. There's few 'human' units though, beyond the characters and a noise marine party wagon. The rest being constructs and engines of some sort. Leviathan Dread being the showpiece big unit.

For 75 points ish in a unit that screams DEAL WITH ME, maybe just some Berzerkers? Just potential of what would happen if they got into melee will force your opponent to throw some AP at them.

If I wasn't worrying about points as much though, it's all about Daemon Princes.

Stux wrote:
For 75 points ish in a unit that screams DEAL WITH ME, maybe just some Berzerkers? Just potential of what would happen if they got into melee will force your opponent to throw some AP at them.

If I wasn't worrying about points as much though, it's all about Daemon Princes.

I mean yes, I do have a Prince in my list, but at 180 points I wouldn't say they were a distraction, more of an actual valid target lol.

That's why you need to be running 3 of them :p

Stux wrote:
That's why you need to be running 3 of them :p

Lol that has been a temptation, if I thought of a cool enough conversion.

Currently the list is looking a little 'technomancer' in style. My Maulerfiend model has the head of an imperial knight, instead of the usual beastial one. My Leviathan will probably be a Thanatar Siege Automata. If I can fit in some Oblits, they'll probably be converted from Centurian Devastators.

How about maulerfiends? They look scary.

Gitdakka wrote:
How about maulerfiends? They look scary.

Just before you typed this i sent a post saying I do already have a maulerfiend. They're also 150 points though so not particularly cheap.

How many points is a Hellbrute?

I believe the cheapest loadout is twin heavy bolter and missile launcher, which totals 118 points.

BrianDavion wrote:
How many points is a Hellbrute?

Basic Helbrute (which I assume is the cheapest) is about 140pts with a multi-melta and a helbrute fist.

Sonic Helbrute, with two blastmasters and a power scourge, is 155pts.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I believe the cheapest loadout is twin heavy bolter and missile launcher, which totals 118 points.

Edit: He ninja'd me, with a cheaper option. Though if it's going to be charging into battle getting in the way of the enemy, it should probably have a Scourge at least for the extra attacks?

Yeah there are certainly more useful options, I just thought of the cheapest right off the bat.

As you call it a Chaos army I'd suggest a Bloat Drone with Fleshmower. For about 130 points you get a pretty fast, annoyingly durable unit that has 9 attacks, S8, AP -2, D 2. When it degrades it still keeps being quite strong so you have to kill the thing, crippling it won't be enough. It's also a Daemon engine so fits your army style. It is DG though.

If the Heldrake would cost the ~120 points he is worth, he might be the perfect candidate. Sadly, he's terribly overcosted.

I've found the Defiler to be a pretty good distraction. With the latest point reductions he is actually feasible as a unit.
14 wounds, infernal regeneration, and the 5++ means he is probably more durable than whatever else your opponent wants to shoot at, and Daemon Forge + the Defiler Scourge means he is too dangerous to allow to close into melee. I've found the Defiler to be very effective at taking pressure off of more valuable parts of my list and still contribute to a game in his own right.

Of course at roughly 170 points he doesn't really fit your idea of a distraction Carnifex.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
As you call it a Chaos army I'd suggest a Bloat Drone with Fleshmower. For about 130 points you get a pretty fast, annoyingly durable unit that has 9 attacks, S8, AP -2, D 2. When it degrades it still keeps being quite strong so you have to kill the thing, crippling it won't be enough. It's also a Daemon engine so fits your army style. It is DG though.

Hmm, I had been considering some of the DG units, as Nurgle is probably my favourite of the demon gods from the perspective of fluff. The demon engines even look pretty great. The problem (for me) comes on the non-engine models, as I'm not a fan of the "teeth in belly, intestines trailing around the place" look. So I would probably make nurgle units that were more mechanical or armoured, rather than bloated...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trollbert wrote:
If the Heldrake would cost the ~120 points he is worth, he might be the perfect candidate. Sadly, he's terribly overcosted.

Heldrake was a temptation, but like you said it's pricey for what it does. Also considered some of the forgeworld fliers / fighters / interceptors, but I think they're also mostly quite expensive.

I don't play Chaos, but what about some Iron Warrior MSU? Durable, seems to fit the theme, and can grab VPs...?

Plagueburst crawlers.

Watch as your opponent sends all the lascannons into one, and it still lives; your opponent cries, and your army advances. Weeee

While not super cheap, Renegade Knights seem to be a major distraction carnifex based on the Chaos Tactic thread. I haven't tried it, but it seems like a solid method if you're looking to try and get into melee range with more of your army.

 Zid wrote:
Plagueburst crawlers.

Watch as your opponent sends all the lascannons into one, and it still lives; your opponent cries, and your army advances. Weeee

Interesting thought, could be a possibility. What are your thoughts on the Bloat Drones and Blight Haulers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While not super cheap, Renegade Knights seem to be a major distraction carnifex based on the Chaos Tactic thread. I haven't tried it, but it seems like a solid method if you're looking to try and get into melee range with more of your army.

I thought the general opinion on the tactica was that all the chaos Knights are hideously overpriced and not worth playing? That seems to be the consensus anyway. Some of the cheaper/smaller ones (I forget the names, but not knights but like mini-knights) were 'ok' but still too expensive.

Leviathan Dread would be cheaper and just as scary I would think.

I think maulerfiends with lasher's are probably the closest fit. Cheap enough to be no loss but deadly enough to not be ignored. That said, as with any distraction fex type you still need lots of other good threats or it'll just get smoked.

 buddha wrote:
I think maulerfiends with lasher's are probably the closest fit. Cheap enough to be no loss but deadly enough to not be ignored. That said, as with any distraction fex type you still need lots of other good threats or it'll just get smoked.

Yeh, I have a half built maulerfiend so that's an option. Was just seeing what the alternatives were

It’s kinda pricey, but I think the best distraction Carnifex for Chaos is the Defiler. Just charge him forward and people will dedicate so much shooting to kill it.

It might drop in the first two turns but everyone locally prioritizes Deffy even over my Grav Flux Leviathan.

Niiru wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While not super cheap, Renegade Knights seem to be a major distraction carnifex based on the Chaos Tactic thread. I haven't tried it, but it seems like a solid method if you're looking to try and get into melee range with more of your army.

I thought the general opinion on the tactica was that all the chaos Knights are hideously overpriced and not worth playing? That seems to be the consensus anyway. Some of the cheaper/smaller ones (I forget the names, but not knights but like mini-knights) were 'ok' but still too expensive.

Leviathan Dread would be cheaper and just as scary I would think.

I haven't seen that consensus, but then again I read the codex, skim the internet (1d4chan tactics, codex reviews) and then take everything I see roll that into a kind of codex review of how to use things based around what I'm trying to run in the codex. Like at the moment I'm rolling around the CSM codex in my head from the point of view of running a Renegades army (themed around the Marines Manevolent because those guys are a chapter I see falling rather easily if, say, they were caught in the Great Rift and left with the need to loot chaos corrupted wargear to keep the fight going only to be corrupted by said wargear and turning into pirating -holes who take their looting history up to 11 as they basically live to loot) and working on writing a kind of general tactica guideline for myself (and maybe to share later if I feel the quality doesn't suck) on what options are available so I can organize my thoughts and run with it.

That said, the comment about the Defiler is definitely a decent choice (self healing always helps since it means it needs less support to work). Basically there are several good options in the codex, the trick is balancing relative cost in your list to the effect you're trying to achieve with it. You want it to be a reasonable threat so your opponent has to deal with it for a turn or two and hit them where it hurts if they don't. Local meta can factor pretty heavily into this (if anti-vehicle is popular look at blobbing up something like a large unit of Berserkers, but if anti-horde or anti-MEQ is more popular then look at vehicle based options).

 Zid wrote:
Plagueburst crawlers.

Watch as your opponent sends all the lascannons into one, and it still lives; your opponent cries, and your army advances. Weeee

This is the correct answer.

Well it really depends on the rest of your army there.

For example, if you got a full detachment of nurgle deamons running around then the nurgle giant spawn is still fantastic. At 150 with the new daemon alligence they are pretty darn good, it's just you are used to the broken 75 points that you don't see it.
The alligence means it has the God power, and is effected by God auras/spells/strats now. And that's massive in an army where they fit.


So as said, depends on your army. Defiler is the go-to because it fits practically every CSM army.


A for Knights.
The reason chaos knight are bad is because of direct comparison to imperial ones.
Imperialis have "chapter tactics", and a full lists of traits, relics, etc. Chaos does not do the chaos or is always at a disadvantage over his imperial counterpart.
The only chaos knight even worth considering is one that imperial can't counterpart, the dual gun ones. But even then, it's probably better not to.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well it really depends on the rest of your army there.

For example, if you got a full detachment of nurgle deamons running around then the nurgle giant spawn is still fantastic. At 150 with the new daemon alligence they are pretty darn good, it's just you are used to the broken 75 points that you don't see it.
The alligence means it has the God power, and is effected by God auras/spells/strats now. And that's massive in an army where they fit.


So as said, depends on your army. Defiler is the go-to because it fits practically every CSM army.

Hey, yeh I've still been heavily considering the Giant Spawn, in part because the conversion idea I had (I think) would look cool and scary on the table. Before though I could run it for 75 points and not worry about synergy with CSM units, like you said though for 150 points it needs to take some of the extra buffs from a Daemons list. If I run Death Guard though this might work out ok.

At 150 its honestly still REAL good. Take it as nurgle or tzeentch and it becomes hilariously hard to kill. If you want something thst is just meant to distract, then something that literally becomes stronger the less attention you pay is perfect.

If youre going to branch into Daemons (and as a Chaos player, you probably should), 3 stock Plague drones for a little over 100 pts is durable, and I use them to escort a Daemon Prince.

Of course, if youre not Nurgle minded, Screamers or Flesh hounds (or fiends/seekers but i never see them) work just as well.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
If youre going to branch into Daemons (and as a Chaos player, you probably should), 3 stock Plague drones for a little over 100 pts is durable, and I use them to escort a Daemon Prince.

Of course, if youre not Nurgle minded, Screamers or Flesh hounds (or fiends/seekers but i never see them) work just as well.

I like Papa Nurgle as a concept, and I like the rules (lots of what is essentially flamers (plague sprayers) and mortal wounds) as well as the excess of durability. The only thing I generally find a little too much is the rotting / bulbous corpse bodies. It varies depending on the unit, some I like and some I don't. On some of my conversion ideas I'm using more of a clinical/mech feel to the unit.

So if I did plague drones, I'd probably convert them. Maybe from Bloat Drones.