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So with another major tournament having issues with cheating, I think it would be interesting to see what the community feels are appropriate punishments for different offenses. One major bonus of large leagues like ITC/ ETC is that these punishments have the ability to apply to whole seasons or even lifetime bans if need be.

For example things like
1. Incorrect list
2. Playing a rule wrong
3. Inappropriate behavior
4. Slow Play
5. Loaded Dice
Anything under the sun that you have seen or heard about and what you would have done as the TO
Ect.

I'm very interested in what types of cheating the community even considers cheating or mistakes. If different cheating should have different punishments based on the severity. If players should have previous offenses applied to punishments ect. So essentially if you ran a major GT or league what would your rulebook look like when it comes to punishments

Depends on the level of event, specifically how "professional" and experienced the intended players are

1. tournament referee adjusts the list to make a minimal correction, e.g. unit thats not allowed in the list == unit removed, illegal upgrade == upgrade removed, excessive points == referee removes stuff to bring back to level.

points already scored declared null.

2. depends, the rules are not overly clear, for repeated offences, especially of the same rule, or where that rule "interpretation" seems key to a play style, would go with that game sees the player score zero, two such occasions in different games, all points declared null

3. too large a category, could be anything from having a quiet word to expulsion from the event, to the authorities being involved.

what I would do is to keep records so when something crops up at multiple events patterns are easy to spot

leopard wrote:
Depends on the level of event, specifically how "professional" and experienced the intended players are

1. tournament referee adjusts the list to make a minimal correction, e.g. unit thats not allowed in the list == unit removed, illegal upgrade == upgrade removed, excessive points == referee removes stuff to bring back to level.

points already scored declared null.

2. depends, the rules are not overly clear, for repeated offences, especially of the same rule, or where that rule "interpretation" seems key to a play style, would go with that game sees the player score zero, two such occasions in different games, all points declared null

3. too large a category, could be anything from having a quiet word to expulsion from the event, to the authorities being involved.

what I would do is to keep records so when something crops up at multiple events patterns are easy to spot

Those are just different examples I'm interested to see what people think about all different types of rules behavior and what types of punishments people would apply to those.

what needs to happen is TOs need to cordinate, everytime you hear about big cheating at tournies, it's usally the same half dozen people or so. and they need to be dealt with harsher then someone whom may have perhaps made an innocent mistake on their list. repeat offenders MUST be dealt with. Harshly.

Have a wood burning stove in the corner into which their army goes.

Turn them into servitors for the Imperium

Martel732 wrote:
Have a wood burning stove in the corner into which their army goes.

And here i was thinking a lifetime ban was the harshest thing you could do hahaha

Asmodios wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Have a wood burning stove in the corner into which their army goes.

And here i was thinking a lifetime ban was the harshest thing you could do hahaha

why stop at just their army? toss them in along with it

BrianDavion wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Have a wood burning stove in the corner into which their army goes.

And here i was thinking a lifetime ban was the harshest thing you could do hahaha

why stop at just their army? toss them in along with it

So what would you have to do to be burned? I got a feeling that on Dakka the slightest rules mistake might get you burned as a heretic

A few thoughts:

1) Punishment must fit the crime. There are clearly things that are outright cheating, such as using loaded dice. You can't accidentally use loaded dice, its a deliberate choice to take and use them.
Meanwhile things like slow play or a unit wrongly written down in the army list; a miss used rule et c.. these things can be accidents as well as deliberate cheating

2) In light of that I think the key isn't to work out a list of possible infractions and then ascribe punishments to each one, but to instead work out a score system for each type of infraction to be logged and recorded both within an event and between different events.

This allows for the identification of patterns of behaviour as a cheater will make similar mistakes all the time; or will vary but continue to make mistakes that a person at their level shouldn't make. Tracking these as well as tracking when they are identified and corrected/penalised within each competition should be part of the punishments. IF a person has been corrected for slow play many times then chances are they are either not good enough or they are cheating and should be dealt with accordingly.


Punishments could range from simple auto-loss of matches through to disqualification to bans. Again coordination between events is critical here otherwise the cheater can just float from event to event without much trouble. Of course it should also not be used to hound people, witch-hunts can be as damaging to the community as cheaters can.



Another thought is that events should be better and tighter run. Eg army lists should be reviewed before the game by the TO. A simple act of double checking that the lists are legal within the rules of the game and any introduced for the event. Records of all transgressions (no matter how small); records of games (webcams etc....) where possible e tc.. Ergo formal building of a body of data.

Data that should be shared, at the very least, behind closed doors between events so that player data is tracked. Thus letting TO of events review known cheaters or suspect players and be aware of them in advance. Plus allowing identification of key cheaters for potential bans from blocks of tournaments not just the one they get caught at.



I think there's a lot of room here for judgement calls on situations and that its important not to witch-hunt players at the same time. Many wargame cheats can be honest mistakes; so its important to have TO and offiicials experienced enough to be able to start telling the difference between the two.

I think you also need to introduce a skill bar as well. Things like slow play can be totally honest; yet can produce a non-desireable trait at events. Therefore when the player can't be proven to be cheating they can be proven to be not tournament level playing. This might naturally get resolved by them placing lower; but if might also be prudent for them to have a skill suspension. Formally refusing to allow them to compete in formal events (but still allowing them to partake in informal events, casual tournaments and with no stigma attached).
This allows you to raise the skill bar whilst also not forcing out people who are not cheating, but who are just not skilled for high level play.

 Overread wrote:
A few thoughts:

1) Punishment must fit the crime. There are clearly things that are outright cheating, such as using loaded dice. You can't accidentally use loaded dice, its a deliberate choice to take and use them.
Meanwhile things like slow play or a unit wrongly written down in the army list; a miss used rule et c.. these things can be accidents as well as deliberate cheating

2) In light of that I think the key isn't to work out a list of possible infractions and then ascribe punishments to each one, but to instead work out a score system for each type of infraction to be logged and recorded both within an event and between different events.

This allows for the identification of patterns of behaviour as a cheater will make similar mistakes all the time; or will vary but continue to make mistakes that a person at their level shouldn't make. Tracking these as well as tracking when they are identified and corrected/penalised within each competition should be part of the punishments. IF a person has been corrected for slow play many times then chances are they are either not good enough or they are cheating and should be dealt with accordingly.


Punishments could range from simple auto-loss of matches through to disqualification to bans. Again coordination between events is critical here otherwise the cheater can just float from event to event without much trouble. Of course it should also not be used to hound people, witch-hunts can be as damaging to the community as cheaters can.



Another thought is that events should be better and tighter run. Eg army lists should be reviewed before the game by the TO. A simple act of double checking that the lists are legal within the rules of the game and any introduced for the event. Records of all transgressions (no matter how small); records of games (webcams etc....) where possible e tc.. Ergo formal building of a body of data.

Data that should be shared, at the very least, behind closed doors between events so that player data is tracked. Thus letting TO of events review known cheaters or suspect players and be aware of them in advance. Plus allowing identification of key cheaters for potential bans from blocks of tournaments not just the one they get caught at.



I think there's a lot of room here for judgement calls on situations and that its important not to witch-hunt players at the same time. Many wargame cheats can be honest mistakes; so its important to have TO and offiicials experienced enough to be able to start telling the difference between the two.

I think you also need to introduce a skill bar as well. Things like slow play can be totally honest; yet can produce a non-desireable trait at events. Therefore when the player can't be proven to be cheating they can be proven to be not tournament level playing. This might naturally get resolved by them placing lower; but if might also be prudent for them to have a skill suspension. Formally refusing to allow them to compete in formal events (but still allowing them to partake in informal events, casual tournaments and with no stigma attached).
This allows you to raise the skill bar whilst also not forcing out people who are not cheating, but who are just not skilled for high level play.

So you are more on the "no official rulebook" other then things that cannot be mistaken for anything other then cheating (such as loaded dice). Other then that its small punishments and looking at patterns of behavior

An Infraction Procedure Guide for use in ITC/ETC would likely be helpful. I would be tempted to model it after the Magic: The Gathering tourney guide.

Types of Errors:
#1. Systemic Error - This would be things that may be honest mistakes... or may not be... but it's really hard to tell at times. Sometimes players think they have a piece of wargear, and they don't. For me, I've done this when Battlescribe said my Thousand Sons Daemon Prince had access to a Warp Bolter, but that's only something that's allowed for the Codex Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince. I didn't give myself illegal wargear on purpose, but there it was. This is pretty hard at times to catch, as we're all pretty trusting, and can be quickly fixed.

#2. Play Error - This would be things that are an honest mistake. For example, Khorne Beserkers attack some Space Marines, and the player forgets to apply Death to the False Emperor's generating extra attacks on 6's. This is a real play error, one that I've made numerous times. Forgetting something like this is not following the rules, but it's pretty small. Most often, these things aren't even brought up or recognized until it's in a situation where it really starts to matter. Other times, a player may not be aware of an FAQ (though this really is their fault), and are playing a certain way until corrected. I'd say that 99% of all judge calls I've experienced fall somewhere in this range.

#3. Unsporting Behaviour - This would be things that are problems that occur outside the game itself. This would be things like bullying behaviour, table flips/purposefully damaging people's models, theft, incorrectly reporting game results, or behaviour unbecoming of the community. EDIT: Slow play would also fall under this category.

Severity of Errors:
#1. Failure to Properly Play - This is the lowest level of errors, as it's the most easily done by accident. 99% of the time, most judge calls will come down to this. Some player has done something by accident, and the game that will be played could resolve differently based on what happened. For example, a Mawloc came up from Reserves on Turn 1 to eat something in the opponent's deployment zone, and it was only realized on Turn 3 that you couldn't do that. This kind of mistake often is committed by both players, because it is the responsibility of both players to know the rules and FAQ's. Most players will resolve these ones on their own, but a real system has to be in place for when things become heated. In the case that the mistake is caused by 1 player conveniently "forgetting" a rule that belongs in their codex or FAQ that an opponent may not be aware of, such as Death to the False Emperor, then that player should be issued a Warning (specifically, a Play Error - Warning). If both players are at fault, such as in the example of the Mawloc, then both players should receive the Play Error - Warning. In the case that an illegal list is submitted, if the player can prove that the error was something beyond their control, then a Systemic Error - Warning could be given, though such a warning would have little effect. Slow Play would at first fall under a Failure to Properly Play as well, and result in a Unsporting Behaviour - Warning. If a player receives multiple Warnings in the same event, Judges have the discretion to upgrade the severity of the error.

#2. Failure to Legally Play - This is where you receive a Match Loss. This would be for things where a player is grossly negligent of their play responsibilities. For example, if a player has submitted an illegal list, and it's something within their control (such as the Warp Bolter on a Thousand Sons Daemon Prince - you should own the codex, and the codex is clear on this), then you receive a Systemic Error - Match Loss penalty, and then will be allowed to rebuild your list. Another example would be measuring your distances from the front of the model, then moving the model so that point is at the back, gaining the width of the model in the distance moved in the process. It may be hard to detect intent of cheating here, since you may honestly never have been corrected on this behaviour, but doing so would be grossly negligent, and you would be issued a Play Error - Match Loss as a result.

#3. Failure to Ethically Play - This is where you are ejected from the tournament, because you cheated, you cheater. It can be hard to spot cheating sometimes, so Judges may issue lower penalties first, but they'll quickly graduate to tournament ejection. Just for clarity though, this would be things like putting Tactical Objectives into the "scored" pile without scoring them, or making up units/wargear being in your list even though it isn't, or would be bullying other players (Unsporting Behaviour - Ejection).

#4. BAN - Finally, if you are routinely being ejected from tournaments, the ITC/ETC or whatever is within its rights to ban any player for any reason.

Asmodios wrote:

So you are more on the "no official rulebook" other then things that cannot be mistaken for anything other then cheating (such as loaded dice). Other then that its small punishments and looking at patterns of behavior

I'm not opposed to some formal structure, just not itemising each thing into its own specific punishment regardless of situation. The MTG system proposed above as a base sounds like a logical structure to consider; whereby its not trying to make each mistake a criminal action.

And yes I think any system has to look at long term behaviour patterns and greater coordination between events. No matter the rules system one proposes the coordination and collection of player data is the only way to ensure some level of curtailing of cheating. Otherwise you will get cheaters who will play the system and make a lot of small mistakes that won't likely get noticed in isolation (baring in mind many small errors might not even get a TO to the table to double check).

That latter comment reminds me of the other ideal which is to have a judge/official view each game or at least work between two or three tables; ergo so that calling over a judge is a very quick affair and where the judge has more chance to keep an eye on the game and the state of play.

Oh, Slow Play... I guess that would be Unsporting Behaviour - Warning at first, graduating up as it goes. If you can't make it to the end of the game, you should be given this Warning regardless of whose at fault. A player that is regularly at fault will face the prospects of having that Warning upgraded to a Match Loss in future games.

 Overread wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

And yes I think any system has to look at long term behaviour patterns and greater coordination between events. No matter the rules system one proposes the coordination and collection of player data is the only way to ensure some level of curtailing of cheating. Otherwise you will get cheaters who will play the system and make a lot of small mistakes that won't likely get noticed in isolation (baring in mind many small errors might not even get a TO to the table to double check).

This.

I'd suggest that any warnings given, no matter how slight, should be reported and shared amongst ITC TO's. Someone who received 3 warnings in their last event should be know to the TO and not be on the same starting point as someone who's gone to their first tournament and might have made an honest mistake with their army list. A tournament veteran who rocks up trying to use an illegal list having had 3 warnings for potential cheating in their last event (not quite enough to get them ejected) should receive a worse punishment than the newbie who didn't realise that you couldn't take X and Y together.

 Yarium wrote:
Oh, Slow Play... I guess that would be Unsporting Behaviour - Warning at first, graduating up as it goes. If you can't make it to the end of the game, you should be given this Warning regardless of whose at fault. A player that is regularly at fault will face the prospects of having that Warning upgraded to a Match Loss in future games.

I think slow play is one of those areas where it can most certainly be abused,but where there is enough room for it also to simply be a persons actual playing speed. Which is why I suggested it be one of those areas where you get a "not compete" status which simply says that you can't compete for a period of time, such a year or so; but doesn't count as a ban from events. Therefore letting that player continue to compete in casual formats, campaigns and other events run by the TO etc.... Ergo its a "you're not cheating, but you're just not fast enough to compete at the competitive level".

You are punishing the player in that they can no longer compete, but you're not barring them from attending events as a spectator nor more casual/none-competing events. So you're not kicking them out of the hobby group, just moving them to one side to give them room to improve up to standard.

Id say make them eat their mistakes.

incorrect/modeling for advantage = eat their models

Loaded dice = eat the dice

Screwing up on rules = make them eat their books.

Slow play = eat a chess clock.

But honestly... first offense outside of actual blatant cheating like loaded dice 1 warning second offense doc points 3rd offence life time ban.

The rack! The rack! The rack!


Every flgs should have one.

 Overread wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Oh, Slow Play... I guess that would be Unsporting Behaviour - Warning at first, graduating up as it goes. If you can't make it to the end of the game, you should be given this Warning regardless of whose at fault. A player that is regularly at fault will face the prospects of having that Warning upgraded to a Match Loss in future games.

I think slow play is one of those areas where it can most certainly be abused,but where there is enough room for it also to simply be a persons actual playing speed. Which is why I suggested it be one of those areas where you get a "not compete" status which simply says that you can't compete for a period of time, such a year or so; but doesn't count as a ban from events. Therefore letting that player continue to compete in casual formats, campaigns and other events run by the TO etc.... Ergo its a "you're not cheating, but you're just not fast enough to compete at the competitive level".

You are punishing the player in that they can no longer compete, but you're not barring them from attending events as a spectator nor more casual/none-competing events. So you're not kicking them out of the hobby group, just moving them to one side to give them room to improve up to standard.

I know it's maybe unpopular but wouldn't it be better rather than having a straight up fast enough/not fast enough line, have a more graduated tournaments.
Like championship level competing for the event win and a I want to go to the tournament but I'm looking to play some games and get experience of attending level.
Where you do maybe 2/3 games per day so more time and less points but can still do a best amateur placement, while the people going for event wins are in the pro level doing 3/4 games a day.

The other issue's need adressing but those are more down to individuals behaving and TO's punishing those who don't, I do like the suggestion of Yarium

Asmodios wrote:

leopard wrote:
Depends on the level of event, specifically how "professional" and experienced the intended players are

1. tournament referee adjusts the list to make a minimal correction, e.g. unit thats not allowed in the list == unit removed, illegal upgrade == upgrade removed, excessive points == referee removes stuff to bring back to level.

points already scored declared null.

2. depends, the rules are not overly clear, for repeated offences, especially of the same rule, or where that rule "interpretation" seems key to a play style, would go with that game sees the player score zero, two such occasions in different games, all points declared null

3. too large a category, could be anything from having a quiet word to expulsion from the event, to the authorities being involved.

what I would do is to keep records so when something crops up at multiple events patterns are easy to spot

Those are just different examples I'm interested to see what people think about all different types of rules behavior and what types of punishments people would apply to those.

I get the point, my point is its a seriously wide field.

however as decades of law enforcement shows its not really the punishment thats the deterrent, its largely the chance of being caught, combined with the punishment.

have played in a few events, I think one adjudicator per three/four tables is about right, to keep an eye on the games and players, and share notes between rounds on potential issues.

they also need the power to make rulings on potential rule abuses - with the requirement to state their reasons, not subject to challenge except by another adjudicator.


personal pet hates:

1. bringing units that violate the rules pack in some way, the punishment for which should be the removal of that unit from play, without the chance to "adjust" it - e.g. the rules say painted and your unit isn't, off the table it goes, play the game without

2. rubber tape measures, this one needs an adjudicator to be on top of the game really, suitable penalty is the unit doesn't move (e.g. doesn't charge, advance or whatever), do it twice and your movement phase ends, do it three times and DQ

3. slow play, reasonably easy, adjudicator again, with a watch, providing a time limit - e.g. "you have another five minutes to move then its the next phase"

4. loaded dice - DQ on the spot, same with other shall we say adjusted tool, e.g. arc of sight template thats 100 degrees not 90, slightly stretched measuring sticks and similar


main bug bear though, event organisers who don't enforce the rules they create and publish but "let it slide", I think players should have no problems simply not going back

 Overread wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Oh, Slow Play... I guess that would be Unsporting Behaviour - Warning at first, graduating up as it goes. If you can't make it to the end of the game, you should be given this Warning regardless of whose at fault. A player that is regularly at fault will face the prospects of having that Warning upgraded to a Match Loss in future games.

I think slow play is one of those areas where it can most certainly be abused,but where there is enough room for it also to simply be a persons actual playing speed. Which is why I suggested it be one of those areas where you get a "not compete" status which simply says that you can't compete for a period of time, such a year or so; but doesn't count as a ban from events. Therefore letting that player continue to compete in casual formats, campaigns and other events run by the TO etc.... Ergo its a "you're not cheating, but you're just not fast enough to compete at the competitive level".

You are punishing the player in that they can no longer compete, but you're not barring them from attending events as a spectator nor more casual/none-competing events. So you're not kicking them out of the hobby group, just moving them to one side to give them room to improve up to standard.

Well, I think that's part of the leeway of judge's discretion. You don't have to increase the severity for slow play, but you can issue another warning, or match losses. An infraction guide needs to have discussions regarding these hard-to-pin-down things. Personally, I feel that in the case of tournaments and slow play, if slow play limits the kinds of armies you can play, then that is just as real a restriction on list building as points costs, number of detachments, and power level. Yes, it would reduce the theoretical possibilities of armies you could face, but this is a tournament, not a kitchen table. At the end of the day, if a choice has to be made between "functional competitive circuit" and "fun", I believe the choice must lean towards functionality. Fun is super important, but functionality is primary.

Asmodios wrote:
So with another major tournament having issues with cheating, I think it would be interesting to see what the community feels are appropriate punishments for different offenses. One major bonus of large leagues like ITC/ ETC is that these punishments have the ability to apply to whole seasons or even lifetime bans if need be.

For example things like
1. Incorrect list
2. Playing a rule wrong
3. Inappropriate behavior
4. Slow Play
5. Loaded Dice
Anything under the sun that you have seen or heard about and what you would have done as the TO
Ect.

I'm very interested in what types of cheating the community even considers cheating or mistakes. If different cheating should have different punishments based on the severity. If players should have previous offenses applied to punishments ect. So essentially if you ran a major GT or league what would your rulebook look like when it comes to punishments

As has been said, a lot of it is going to be the intent of the cheat and the frequency of the cheat.

1. Incorrect List - Loss on game using illegal list. If you used it in previous games, your points are removed. You're told to fix your list, show the adjusted list to a judge, and then you can continue. Ignorance is not an excuse when there are forums and chatrooms to discuss listbuilding to make sure you get everything right, especially when you're flying across the country, or to a different country, with all your expensive miniatures in tow.

2. Playing a Rule Wrong - could be an honest mistake. There's a lot of weird rules out there, with even weirder interactions with other rules and stratagems and such. Slap on the wrist. Play the rule right for the rest of the tournament or get a more severe punishment if you do it again.

3. Inappropriate Behavior - There's no excuse for harassment, racist comments, over-sexual comments, or anything of the like in a game that is marketed to all ages, including those as young as 10-12 y.o.. You'll be docked points for the current game you're playing and DQ'd or banned if you do it again.

4. Slow Play - This is... tougher to measure. Some people say that horde armies should have no problem getting to turn 5-6. Other people have a hard time figuring out which targets their 4-model Imperial Knights list should shoot at. This is why judging this sort of behavior is so difficult and why it's such a problem. If you have a middle-model-count army (Space Marines, Eldar, etc) and your opponent does as well, then you should be able to consistently get to turn 5 without issue. If you're struggling to hit turn 3, your opponent is probably slow playing. Slap on the wrist, dock of points. Discourage the behavior so that they either learn to play faster, or don't use it as a crutch/cheat.

5. Loaded Dice - Immediate DQ and ban from the event. We don't want people using any altered tools or spreading around ideas of how to get/use them to other members of the community. Kick them out with your most spikey steel-toed boot.

And my bonus ruling.

6. Moving Models/Terrain Inappropriately - Can be anything from someone fat-fingering a model to them really trying to get into that 12" rapid fire range. Dock points if it's a problem.

7. Picking up dice too quickly, hiding rolls, etc. - Dock points. Don't tolerate this. Everyone should plainly see what dice are being rolled. Get a dice tower or a dice box if you get called out doing this.

I have seriously contemplated starting “The Cheating Thread” here on Dakka to document major cheating instances at tournaments with names and descriptions. While unfortunately I don’t have the time, tact, or skill to properly manage such a thread; I hope someone else does so we can at least as a community do what the TOs refuse to: acknowledge the cheating exists.

Well, the best system for ITC would be to petition the creators of Best Coast Pairings - the official ITC tournament app system - to include a system for TO's to document cheating things, via an Infraction Guide, so that players can be tracked across events, and winners Infraction rates can be compared to see how valid wins for top tier players are.

Asmodios wrote:

1. Incorrect list
2. Playing a rule wrong
3. Inappropriate behavior
4. Slow Play
5. Loaded Dice

1. This should never happen. List legality should be checked and approved before the tournament starts by tournament personnel, or if that is impossible should be outsourced to volunteers. Army composition should then then be checked quickly against their list once players arrive at the tournament. If an illegal list somehow makes it past all of this, the player should be immediately DQed upon discovery, and receive 0 points for the entire tournament. If there is substantial proof that the player intentionally circumvented the safeguards or worked to conceal the illegality of his list, it should be a lifetime ban. Really, if you figure out you are running an illegal list halfway through a tournament and nobody else caught it, the best thing to do is to come forward and DQ yourself. It may hurt your wallet but it shows integrity and I would certainly respect any player who did that.

2. A correction by a judge would be acceptable here. If too many "corrections" happen during one game, or there is substantial proof that it was intentional, the player is DQed with a total loss of points. If the player has been DQed for this previously, lifetime ban.

3. Depends on how inappropriate the behavior is. Cursing at an opponent could just be a warning, and then a DQ with a total loss of points for the entire tournament if the behavior continues. Something like throwing your opponents minis after a loss or table flipping should be a lifetime ban. Violence against an opponent should be a lifetime ban and the police should be called.

4. I don't want to comment on this one because the idea of "slow play" is an entirely subjective one, and chess clocks might fix this anyway.

5. Lifetime ban. The amount of effort and investment that it takes to obtain loaded dice, let alone conceal the fact and use them in a tournament? It shows obviously and beyond a doubt that the person was cheating and intended to cheat. Not only, that it also shows a certain sense of premeditation that is certainly worthy of a lifetime ban in my eyes, where as "cheating in the heat of the moment" may only be deserving of a DQ with total loss of points depending on the circumstances.

My add-ons

6. Bumping Models or Terrain
A correction by a judge would be acceptable here. If too many "corrections" happen during one game, or there is substantial proof that it was intentional, the player is DQed with a total loss of points. If the player has been DQed for this previously, lifetime ban.

7. Fast Rolling Shinanigans
A correction by a judge would be acceptable here. If too many "corrections" happen during one game, or there is substantial proof that it was intentional, the player is DQed with a total loss of points. If the player has been DQed for this previously, lifetime ban.

As a general rule, I believe in the power of second chances for cheating that isn't blatantly premeditated or excessive. Even the best of us make bad decisions sometimes and I don't particularly think handing out lifetime bans for minor offenses is a good thing. However, I do not believe in third chances. If you continue to cheat after you have been DQed with a total loss of points to me shows a character flaw that means we really don't want you in our community.

We start with the toes and work our way up...

Asmodios wrote:
So with another major tournament having issues with cheating, I think it would be interesting to see what the community feels are appropriate punishments for different offenses. One major bonus of large leagues like ITC/ ETC is that these punishments have the ability to apply to whole seasons or even lifetime bans if need be.

For example things like
1. Incorrect list
2. Playing a rule wrong
3. Inappropriate behavior
4. Slow Play
5. Loaded Dice
Anything under the sun that you have seen or heard about and what you would have done as the TO
Ect.

I'm very interested in what types of cheating the community even considers cheating or mistakes. If different cheating should have different punishments based on the severity. If players should have previous offenses applied to punishments ect. So essentially if you ran a major GT or league what would your rulebook look like when it comes to punishments

You have to start by catching people, the punishment is ineffective if people do not get caught.

Video cameras on all the top tables. Judge can review video evidence in case of any accusation of dodgy behaviour. This can actually start catching a lot of what I have seen in tournaments that "call the judge" never ever will catch; such as nudging of models or throwing out a constant barrage of "mistakes" knowing that 90% of them will get caught but not only do you get away with an unfair advantage from the other 10% but your opponent is too busy filtering the bull to think about the game anymore.

For most things have a yellow/red card system or the warn/penalise/auto-lose/DQ approach from tennis. Scale it up for most offences. Although intimidatory behaviour, abuse or particularly flagrant cheating like loaded dice can all be immediate DQ in my opinion.

The key to it is always to catch them first. The move to streaming in big tournaments is going to be a big step in the right direction IMO but there is going to be a lot of pain with current top players coming unstuck with behaviour that just does not look so clever when looked at closely.

Lets just stay in the 40k mood.

1. Incorrect list? BLAM! headshot
2. Playing a rule wrong? BLAM!
3. Inappropriate behavior? BLAM!
4. Slow Play? BLAM!
5. Loaded Dice ? You guessed it, promotion to TO. (jk BLAM!)

Sportsmanship score: 40% of final result
Painting score: 40% of final result
Game points: 20% of final result

Problem solved.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sportsmanship score: 40% of final result
Painting score: 40% of final result
Game points: 20% of final result

Problem solved.

Sportsmanship though is exceptionally subjective unless its only judged by an official who views the players entire matches.