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So is the consensus that only Space Marines & Grey Knights are the only "bad" codexes, and GM learned from their mistakes via feedback and all subsequent Codexes have been decent?

The only truly terrible codex is Grey Knights; everything else is functional in some setting. Now that the initial hype for Necrons has died down it looks like that book is around the same level as Space Marines and with no soup to cover the patches.

People still show up and place well at tournaments with Guilliman lists. I'd say GK are in their own tier for low representation/placement in competitive events.

Grey Knights are the singular worst example. I used to list AdMech with them, but access to Termites alone make them tons better for different playstyles outside being stuck to Lucius and Stygies.

Grey Knights are on a bottom tier of their own.

I'd say there's a group of codices on the "fine" level, like AdMech and Space Marine that don't have all the fancy, powerful OPness their respective players might want. But GK are undoubtedly the bottom.

Admech have a lot of bad units - but their good units are really good.

They actually have some OP units.
Robots with phospher are OP.
Then theres are the stygie guys that can infiltrate a 20 man unit with 3 sources of mortal wounds and if they kill a single unit they have 3++ with 5+ FNP.

Why does admech not do well? Gets abolsutely raped by eldar Shining spears. Plus other -2 to hit shinaniganas. Much like everything does.

Put space marines up against IG - it's auto lose
Put Greyknights up against admech - it's auto lose.

I assure you.

Space Marines is not the same level as Grey Knights, no matter what the whiners like Martel and Xenomancers will tell you. They are consistently taking top tables, Smurfs especially can throw down with pretty much any army in the game. They have a bunch of units that could use improvements... But so does the majority of the game.

Grey Knights are basically THE bad dex of the edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Grey Knights are the singular worst example. I used to list AdMech with them, but access to Termites alone make them tons better for different playstyles outside being stuck to Lucius and Stygies.

You are you are really blowing things out of proportion here.

Strike squads and GMDK (basically the only thing you see in a GK army) are superior to everything in the space marine codex except Guilliman. Both the armies have 0 good stratagems and all their units are all overcosted.

Playing both armies (GK are actually my main army since 5th edition) - I can assure you - I would much rather play GK vs Ultra marines - than ultra marines vs admech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Space Marines is not the same level as Grey Knights, no matter what the whiners like Martel and Xenomancers will tell you. They are consistently taking top tables, Smurfs especially can throw down with pretty much any army in the game. They have a bunch of units that could use improvements... But so does the majority of the game.

Grey Knights are basically THE bad dex of the edition.

First of all - anyone playing mono marines is just a dumb ass at the competitive level. Anyone taking marines at all is just doing it to be cute. If you get the first turn with GMan and a ton of guns you can blow people off the table - no one disputes that - but if you get second you have basically no chance to win.


Gonna be seeing a lot of Gman warlords escorting 4 imperial knights up the table though - I guess we can call those marines armies too huh?

I'm not a whinner - I am a realist. You don't see me complaining about how bad my Eldar and DE armies are do you? Because I can admit they are obnoxiously OP. I play your favorite army tyranids too - They almost have a chance against eldar but a a whole level up on armies like marines and GK.

Oh boy, another thread for Marine players to complain in.

 Billagio wrote:
Oh boy, another thread for Marine players to complain in.

What do you expect in a thread titled? What armies are poop?

People are going to complain about the poop armies and everyone that doesn't play a poop army just comes in and makes fun of them and tries to troll their legitimate complaints.

Are you aware that index orks is a much better army than space marines and greyknights that actually have codexes? I hope your army doesn't get nerfed when it's codex comes out like both these armies did. I have a strong feeling though that orks are going to be money.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Admech have a lot of bad units - but their good units are really good.

They actually have some OP units.
Robots with phospher are OP.
Then theres are the stygie guys that can infiltrate a 20 man unit with 3 sources of mortal wounds and if they kill a single unit they have 3++ with 5+ FNP.

Why does admech not do well? Gets abolsutely raped by eldar Shining spears. Plus other -2 to hit shinaniganas. Much like everything does.

Put space marines up against IG - it's auto lose
Put Greyknights up against admech - it's auto lose.

I assure you.

What the what now? Admech, the army with the 1CP +2 to hit stratagem for shooting and for melee, does badly in competitive because they're countered by - to hit shenanigans?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Oh boy, another thread for Marine players to complain in.

What do you expect in a thread titled? What armies are poop?

People are going to complain about the poop armies and everyone that doesn't play a poop army just comes in and makes fun of them and tries to troll their legitimate complaints.

Are you aware that index orks is a much better army than space marines and greyknights that actually have codexes? I hope your army doesn't get nerfed when it's codex comes out like both these armies did. I have a strong feeling though that orks are going to be money.

There is no way index orks are "much" better than SM, If anything theyre similar in power. I am sorry but I cant feel sorry for SM players who get a new codex and shiny new toys every edition while im sitting over here with 2 codexes in the last DECADE the most recent of which was worse than the current marine codex. Im just sick of all the marine complaints when you dont have it as bad as you think when you look at other armies in previous editions.

Im not saying you shouldnt get improved, but we dont need to discuss it in 4 separate threads

 Billagio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Oh boy, another thread for Marine players to complain in.

What do you expect in a thread titled? What armies are poop?

People are going to complain about the poop armies and everyone that doesn't play a poop army just comes in and makes fun of them and tries to troll their legitimate complaints.

Are you aware that index orks is a much better army than space marines and greyknights that actually have codexes? I hope your army doesn't get nerfed when it's codex comes out like both these armies did. I have a strong feeling though that orks are going to be money.

There is no way index orks are "much" better than SM, If anything theyre similar in power. I am sorry but I cant feel sorry for SM players who get a new codex and shiny new toys every edition while im sitting over here with 2 codexes in the last DECADE the most recent of which was worse than the current marine codex. Im just sick of all the marine complaints when you dont have it as bad as you think when you look at other armies in previous editions.

Im not saying you shouldnt get improved, but we dont need to discuss it in 4 separate threads

I don't think I've ever played an edition where people were happy with space marines. Space Marines could be better but they're not BAD.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Admech have a lot of bad units - but their good units are really good.

They actually have some OP units.
Robots with phospher are OP.
Then theres are the stygie guys that can infiltrate a 20 man unit with 3 sources of mortal wounds and if they kill a single unit they have 3++ with 5+ FNP.

Why does admech not do well? Gets abolsutely raped by eldar Shining spears. Plus other -2 to hit shinaniganas. Much like everything does.

Put space marines up against IG - it's auto lose
Put Greyknights up against admech - it's auto lose.

I assure you.

Having no transports made the army entirely monobuild, and that's for Robots with Cawl. That's gonna be countered because everyone knows what to expect.

My proxied Graia army actually does well now simply because Vanguard can do something besides sit there and be a screen to be shot at. It's honestly amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Admech have a lot of bad units - but their good units are really good.

They actually have some OP units.
Robots with phospher are OP.
Then theres are the stygie guys that can infiltrate a 20 man unit with 3 sources of mortal wounds and if they kill a single unit they have 3++ with 5+ FNP.

Why does admech not do well? Gets abolsutely raped by eldar Shining spears. Plus other -2 to hit shinaniganas. Much like everything does.

Put space marines up against IG - it's auto lose
Put Greyknights up against admech - it's auto lose.

I assure you.

What the what now? Admech, the army with the 1CP +2 to hit stratagem for shooting and for melee, does badly in competitive because they're countered by - to hit shenanigans?

They do badly because everyone and their mother can counter Cawlbots.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Oh boy, another thread for Marine players to complain in.

What do you expect in a thread titled? What armies are poop?

People are going to complain about the poop armies and everyone that doesn't play a poop army just comes in and makes fun of them and tries to troll their legitimate complaints.

Are you aware that index orks is a much better army than space marines and greyknights that actually have codexes? I hope your army doesn't get nerfed when it's codex comes out like both these armies did. I have a strong feeling though that orks are going to be money.

There is no way index orks are "much" better than SM, If anything theyre similar in power. I am sorry but I cant feel sorry for SM players who get a new codex and shiny new toys every edition while im sitting over here with 2 codexes in the last DECADE the most recent of which was worse than the current marine codex. Im just sick of all the marine complaints when you dont have it as bad as you think when you look at other armies in previous editions.

Im not saying you shouldnt get improved, but we dont need to discuss it in 4 separate threads

I don't think I've ever played an edition where people were happy with space marines. Space Marines could be better but they're not BAD.

Agreed. My main point is that we don't need 4 seperate threads to discuss marine balance '"issues".

 SHUPPET wrote:
Space Marines is not the same level as Grey Knights, no matter what the whiners like Martel and Xenomancers will tell you. They are consistently taking top tables, Smurfs especially can throw down with pretty much any army in the game. They have a bunch of units that could use improvements... But so does the majority of the game.

Grey Knights are basically THE bad dex of the edition.

No, Roboute is throwing down.

Would you have called 6th edition Tyranids a good codex because Flyrants exist?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Admech have a lot of bad units - but their good units are really good.

They actually have some OP units.
Robots with phospher are OP.
Then theres are the stygie guys that can infiltrate a 20 man unit with 3 sources of mortal wounds and if they kill a single unit they have 3++ with 5+ FNP.

Why does admech not do well? Gets abolsutely raped by eldar Shining spears. Plus other -2 to hit shinaniganas. Much like everything does.

Put space marines up against IG - it's auto lose
Put Greyknights up against admech - it's auto lose.

I assure you.

What the what now? Admech, the army with the 1CP +2 to hit stratagem for shooting and for melee, does badly in competitive because they're countered by - to hit shenanigans?

It's +1 To Hit, and +2 To Hit in specific circumstances.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Admech have a lot of bad units - but their good units are really good.

They actually have some OP units.
Robots with phospher are OP.
Then theres are the stygie guys that can infiltrate a 20 man unit with 3 sources of mortal wounds and if they kill a single unit they have 3++ with 5+ FNP.

Why does admech not do well? Gets abolsutely raped by eldar Shining spears. Plus other -2 to hit shinaniganas. Much like everything does.

Put space marines up against IG - it's auto lose
Put Greyknights up against admech - it's auto lose.

I assure you.

What the what now? Admech, the army with the 1CP +2 to hit stratagem for shooting and for melee, does badly in competitive because they're countered by - to hit shenanigans?

That's only two units per turn and also needs a data tether on the unit if you want it to get the +2.

Same gak every thread. You guys have genuinely trashed this forum.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Space Marines is not the same level as Grey Knights, no matter what the whiners like Martel and Xenomancers will tell you. They are consistently taking top tables, Smurfs especially can throw down with pretty much any army in the game. They have a bunch of units that could use improvements... But so does the majority of the game.

Grey Knights are basically THE bad dex of the edition.

No, Roboute is throwing down.

Would you have called 6th edition Tyranids a good codex because Flyrants exist?

It's a competitive build, that seemed like the answer to this question. Internal balance is a whole nother question, and plenty of books are suffering here. By this logic Necron's is twenty tiers below SM because at least SM has multiple units and unit choice. Necron's has Vaults. Xerox build for every competitive Necron list.



Anyway I'm not interested in another thread where two or three extremely vocal SM players who are just completely out of sync with reality, drown out any productive discussion. Regret posting in here to begin with, let the downplay continue \o/

BrianDavion wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Oh boy, another thread for Marine players to complain in.

What do you expect in a thread titled? What armies are poop?

People are going to complain about the poop armies and everyone that doesn't play a poop army just comes in and makes fun of them and tries to troll their legitimate complaints.

Are you aware that index orks is a much better army than space marines and greyknights that actually have codexes? I hope your army doesn't get nerfed when it's codex comes out like both these armies did. I have a strong feeling though that orks are going to be money.

There is no way index orks are "much" better than SM, If anything theyre similar in power. I am sorry but I cant feel sorry for SM players who get a new codex and shiny new toys every edition while im sitting over here with 2 codexes in the last DECADE the most recent of which was worse than the current marine codex. Im just sick of all the marine complaints when you dont have it as bad as you think when you look at other armies in previous editions.

Im not saying you shouldnt get improved, but we dont need to discuss it in 4 separate threads

I don't think I've ever played an edition where people were happy with space marines. Space Marines could be better but they're not BAD.

Pretty much only Guillimarines are viable in a competitive environment. Most of the other Chapters range from decent (Raven Guard) to laughably awful (Imperial Fists and Black Templars). The problem is, in order to fix the bad Space Marine armies, you just beef up the one with the most visibility (UM). So, to fix some of the lesser SM armies, something other than simple points adjustments are required. Hard to say how that works, but it is definitely something that can be done. But SM aren't TERRIBLE as a rule. They just struggle hardcore against Eldar like usual.

But yeah, Grey Knights are disgustingly overpriced and underpowered. Absolute garbage pretty well across the board.

I still think the Termite doesn't fix Ad Mech. Still, Stygies VIII and Mars are good, the rest are decent. They make a decent CP farm for my Knights, if nothing else.

My intention wasn't to give Space Marines players another chance to cry, but to see if there were other armies that got the GK treatment.

I've heard that every Coxes after Astra Mil was OK. So what codeses were before Astra Mil?

I think only Grey Knights are completely desolate from competitive tournaments. Everyone else makes appearances with their top units; from Admech robots, to Flyrants, to Mortarion, to Agents of Vect, to Gulliman... almost every faction has at least 1 unit that is good enough to make it into a soup build, or has a core of units powerful enough to make it into the top 8. Except Grey Knights. None of their stuff ever shows up. So. Yeah.

deleted - text disappeared.

The poop codex? I mean... Its gotta be Death Guard, right? I mean, from a fluff standpoint.

Frankly, Grey Knights are so broken, it's a sham that GW hasn't come out with something to fix them by now. I know they're keeping their scheduled Big FAQ's and such, but it's clear by now that Grey Knights are in such a bad place that GW needs to take some action.

I would agree that GK are the only terribad codex so far in 8th. GM dreadknights are good, strike squads are okayish. Everything else is sub par at best.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Same gak every thread. You guys have genuinely trashed this forum.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Space Marines is not the same level as Grey Knights, no matter what the whiners like Martel and Xenomancers will tell you. They are consistently taking top tables, Smurfs especially can throw down with pretty much any army in the game. They have a bunch of units that could use improvements... But so does the majority of the game.

Grey Knights are basically THE bad dex of the edition.

No, Roboute is throwing down.

Would you have called 6th edition Tyranids a good codex because Flyrants exist?

It's a competitive build, that seemed like the answer to this question. Internal balance is a whole nother question, and plenty of books are suffering here. By this logic Necron's is twenty tiers below SM because at least SM has multiple units and unit choice. Necron's has Vaults. Xerox build for every competitive Necron list.



Anyway I'm not interested in another thread where two or three extremely vocal SM players who are just completely out of sync with reality, drown out any productive discussion. Regret posting in here to begin with, let the downplay continue \o/

Necrons are actually struggling. Nobody cares because "RP OP"

The triple vault list isn't actually very good; certainly not as good as the Guilliman gunline, and it's worse now that everyone has to prepare their lists for Knights anyways.

If I still played Tau, I might have kept a list of threads like this for any time someone made the accusation that all Tau players do is whine lol.

craggy wrote:
The poop codex? I mean... Its gotta be Death Guard, right? I mean, from a fluff standpoint.

Give that man an internet!

Skaorn wrote:
If I still played Tau, I might have kept a list of threads like this for any time someone made the accusation that all Tau players do is whine lol.

The Tau codex ain't super well written either, with most of the Sept rules being unimaginative (Farsight is about the only creative one, but it only works on shooting so...), and there are severe internal balance issues (Crisis Suits, anyone?)