Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

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**reds8n**

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44952710

Researchers have found evidence of an existing body of liquid water on Mars.

What they believe to be a lake sits beneath the Red Planet's south polar ice cap, and is about 20km across.

Previous research found possible signs of intermittent liquid water flowing on the martian surface, but this is the first sign of a persistent body of water on the planet in the present day.

Lake beds like those explored by Nasa's Curiosity rover show water was present on the surface of Mars in the past.

However, the planet's climate has since cooled due to its thin atmosphere, leaving most of its water locked up in ice.

The discovery was made using Marsis, a radar instrument on board the Mars Express orbiter.
"It's probably not a very large lake," says Prof Roberto Orosei from the Italian National Institute for Astrophysics, who led the study.

Marsis wasn't able to determine how deep the layer of water might be, but the research team estimate that it is a minimum of one metre.

"This really qualifies this as a body of water. A lake, not some kind of meltwater filling some space between rock and ice, as happens in certain glaciers on Earth," Prof Orosei added.

How was it found?
Radar instruments like Marsis examine the surface and immediate subsurface of the planet by sending out a signal and examining what is bounced back.

The continuous white line at the top of the radar results above marks the beginning of the South Polar Layered Deposit; a filo pastry-like accumulation of water ice and dust.

Beneath this, researchers spotted something unusual.

"In light blue you can see where the reflections from the bottom are stronger than surface reflection. This is something that is to us the tell tale sign of the presence of water," says Prof Orosei.

What does this mean for life?
Nothing definitive. Yet.

Dr Manish Patel from the Open University explains: "We have long since known that the surface of Mars is inhospitable to life as we know it, so the search for life on Mars is now in the subsurface.

"This is where we get sufficient protection from harmful radiation, and the pressure and temperature rise to more favourable levels. Most importantly, this allows liquid water, essential for life."

This principle of following the water is key to astrobiology - the study of potential life beyond Earth.

So while the findings suggest water is present, they don't confirm anything further.

"We are not closer to actually detecting life," Dr Patel told BBC News, "but what this finding does is give us the location of where to look on Mars. It is like a treasure map - except in this case, there will be lots of 'X's marking the spots."

The water's temperature and chemistry could also pose a problem for any potential martian organisms.

In order to remain liquid in such cold conditions (the research team estimate between -10 and -30 Celsius where it meets the ice above), the water likely has a great many salts dissolved in it.

"It's plausible that the water may be an extremely cold, concentrated brine, which would be pretty challenging for life," explained Dr Claire Cousins, an astrobiologist from the University of St Andrews, UK.

What next?
While its existence provides a tantalising prospect for those interested in the possibility of past or present life on Mars, the lake's characteristics must first be verified by further research.

"What needs to be done now," explained Dr Matt Balme from the Open University, "is for the measurements to be repeated elsewhere to look for similar signals, and, if possible, for all other explanation to be examined and - hopefully - ruled out.

"Maybe this could even be the trigger for an ambitious new Mars mission to drill into this buried water-pocket - like has been done for sub-glacial lakes in Antarctica on Earth," he added.

Scientists have previously claimed to find bacterial life in the buried depths of Antarctica's Lake Vostok, but drilling on Mars would make for an ambitious project indeed.

"Getting there and acquiring the final evidence that this is indeed a lake will not be an easy task," says Prof Orosei.

"It will require flying a robot there which is capable of drilling through 1.5km of ice. This will certainly require some technological developments that at the moment are not available,"

**Sinful Hero**

Having a machine capable of drilling 100ft remotely would already be a feat of technology. Drilling 1.5km without locking up would be amazing. Drilling it currently with a full crew is already hard enough here on earth.

**Overread**

Sinful Hero wrote:
Having a machine capable of drilling 100ft remotely would already be a feat of technology. Drilling 1.5km without locking up would be amazing. Drilling it currently with a full crew is already hard enough here on earth.

And this is before they even touch on the problems of contamination through the drilling process and with the machinery itself.

I seem to recall watching a documentary years back about them wanting to drill into an under-ice lake on one of the poles and the difficulties they had with building a drilling rig that could do it and produce a clean shaft that wouldn't take any material into the final opening; followed up with delivery of a drone for testing into the water. I seem to recall that they failed in the end (I think because they used a pre-drilled hole by an oil research team that didn't go all the way and contamination was too great from that early drilling); and never followed it up to see if they went back to try again.

**NinthMusketeer**

My prediction remains that when we find extraterrestrial life it will be boring; single cell extremeophiles tremendously interesting to those in the relevant scientific fields but decidedly meh in the public eye. After the initial excitement, obviously.

**pancakeonions**

That's pretty damn cool news. A lake! On Mars!

**Steve steveson**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
My prediction remains that when we find extraterrestrial life it will be boring; single cell extremeophiles tremendously interesting to those in the relevant scientific fields but decidedly meh in the public eye. After the initial excitement, obviously.

This would only serve as evidence that the general public are idiots. Extra terrestrial life would be hugely important. It would totally change the way think about ourselves in the universe. How we think life evolved. The chances of life elsewhere.

**Overread**

Steve steveson wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
My prediction remains that when we find extraterrestrial life it will be boring; single cell extremeophiles tremendously interesting to those in the relevant scientific fields but decidedly meh in the public eye. After the initial excitement, obviously.

This would only serve as evidence that the general public are idiots. Extra terrestrial life would be hugely important. It would totally change the way think about ourselves in the universe. How we think life evolved. The chances of life elsewhere.

To be fair I think most rational people are already quite on board with the idea of life on other worlds as a concept at least in microbe form. Heck there's more than enough "life on Earth came from outer space" theories floating around as well. It would, however, put a bigger dent/knock on the ultra-religious who subscribe to the view of the Earth being the only world with life on it in the Universe. Then again many subfactions (and the most extreme) of those deny much of modern science (including such things as evolution theory) so they might well disbelieve it.

I think it also depends how this news is delivered as to its actual impact. It's the kind of news that can be "and in other news scientists found some old dead microbes on mars" or "BREAKING NEWS LIFE ON MARS (followed by a whole day/week of reports)"

**NinthMusketeer**

Steve steveson wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
My prediction remains that when we find extraterrestrial life it will be boring; single cell extremeophiles tremendously interesting to those in the relevant scientific fields but decidedly meh in the public eye. After the initial excitement, obviously.

This would only serve as evidence that the general public are idiots. Extra terrestrial life would be hugely important. It would totally change the way think about ourselves in the universe. How we think life evolved. The chances of life elsewhere.

Nothing about that affects the day-to-day life for 99% of humans on the planet in the slightest. To say that they are idiots for losing excitement quickly is... a very shallow conclusion.

**Mr Morden**

Steve steveson wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
My prediction remains that when we find extraterrestrial life it will be boring; single cell extremeophiles tremendously interesting to those in the relevant scientific fields but decidedly meh in the public eye. After the initial excitement, obviously.

This would only serve as evidence that the general public are idiots. Extra terrestrial life would be hugely important. It would totally change the way think about ourselves in the universe. How we think life evolved. The chances of life elsewhere.

Would it though - we already know its likely, we have ideas about what ET life should or could look like. Finding a single cell life form is interesting but unless its radically different to our own or what we are expecting - its just that, quite interesting - well to me anyway.

How would it change your life if we found some bacteria on Mars?

**Vulcan**

Mr Morden wrote:
Steve steveson wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
My prediction remains that when we find extraterrestrial life it will be boring; single cell extremeophiles tremendously interesting to those in the relevant scientific fields but decidedly meh in the public eye. After the initial excitement, obviously.

This would only serve as evidence that the general public are idiots. Extra terrestrial life would be hugely important. It would totally change the way think about ourselves in the universe. How we think life evolved. The chances of life elsewhere.

Would it though - we already know its likely, we have ideas about what ET life should or could look like. Finding a single cell life form is interesting but unless its radically different to our own or what we are expecting - its just that, quite interesting - well to me anyway.

How would it change your life if we found some bacteria on Mars?

Because then there's physical evidence that life CAN evolve on other planets. And given the sheer number of planets we've discovered the past decade, if there's life on Mars it's not just possible but LIKELY there is life elsewhere.

From there the probability of intelligent life existing somewhere else goes up significantly. (Insert joke about there being no intelligent life on earth...)

**Steelmage99**

Overread wrote:
Steve steveson wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
My prediction remains that when we find extraterrestrial life it will be boring; single cell extremeophiles tremendously interesting to those in the relevant scientific fields but decidedly meh in the public eye. After the initial excitement, obviously.

This would only serve as evidence that the general public are idiots. Extra terrestrial life would be hugely important. It would totally change the way think about ourselves in the universe. How we think life evolved. The chances of life elsewhere.

To be fair I think most rational people are already quite on board with the idea of life on other worlds as a concept at least in microbe form. Heck there's more than enough "life on Earth came from outer space" theories floating around as well. It would, however, put a bigger dent/knock on the ultra-religious who subscribe to the view of the Earth being the only world with life on it in the Universe. Then again many subfactions (and the most extreme) of those deny much of modern science (including such things as evolution theory) so they might well disbelieve it.

Or they will trot out the ol' tried and tested; "Look at this vague and ambiguous text in my "holy" book. It "clearly" is referring to what has now been discovered and confirmed by science. My book was right aaaaalll along!".

I am sure it is a complete coincidence how they always happen to "discover" these hidden meanings AFTER science has demonstrated it to be true.

**Grey Templar**

It’s under 1.5 kilometers of ice? We sure that’s not a typo? 1.5meters would make more sense. Cause if that’s correct... that’s a heck of a lot of waster.

**Iron_Captain**

Grey Templar wrote:
It’s under 1.5 kilometers of ice? We sure that’s not a typo? 1.5meters would make more sense.

Not in a place where it is -150° C
By comparison, the Antarctic ice sheet has a mean thickness of 2.16 km, and is over 4 km at its thickest point.

**Grey Templar**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
It’s under 1.5 kilometers of ice? We sure that’s not a typo? 1.5meters would make more sense.

Not in a place where it is -150° C
By comparison, the Antarctic ice sheet has a mean thickness of 2.16 km, and is over 4 km at its thickest point.

It’s not the temp that was my issue. It’s that there would be enough water to make it that thick.

**Dreadwinter**

Grey Templar wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
It’s under 1.5 kilometers of ice? We sure that’s not a typo? 1.5meters would make more sense.

Not in a place where it is -150° C
By comparison, the Antarctic ice sheet has a mean thickness of 2.16 km, and is over 4 km at its thickest point.

It’s not the temp that was my issue. It’s that there would be enough water to make it that thick.

Well, the planet is covered in dry lake beds and river beds. I assume it had a little water on it at some point.

**Grey Templar**

Dreadwinter wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
It’s under 1.5 kilometers of ice? We sure that’s not a typo? 1.5meters would make more sense.

Not in a place where it is -150° C
By comparison, the Antarctic ice sheet has a mean thickness of 2.16 km, and is over 4 km at its thickest point.

It’s not the temp that was my issue. It’s that there would be enough water to make it that thick.

Well, the planet is covered in dry lake beds and river beds. I assume it had a little water on it at some point.

Sure, but given how much effort has been put into just finding any water on the planet, I'm surprised for them to suddenly be saying there are ice sheets in excess of a kilometer in thickness. Not that I've been paying super close attention, but you'd have thought that this would have been a bigger deal.

**cuda1179**

If all they need to drill through is ice, would a steam drill be the best method?

For those not in the know, it would look like a plumb bob on the end of a hose. As it is lowered towards the ice it starts shooting out steam or hot air (although other forms of heat could be used, this need not be a quick process).

As the plum bob is lowered it melts, and eventually evaporates, the ice in front of it. The big advantage is that it will always drill strait down, as it is pulled by gravity. Also, as it is basically on the end of hose, no need for adding lengths of ridged pipes to lengthen a normal drill, just roll it up like a garden hose.

**Jadenim**

I believe most of the ice sheet on Mars is actually CO2 ice (dry ice), with some water mixed in.

**cuda1179**

Jadenim wrote:
I believe most of the ice sheet on Mars is actually CO2 ice (dry ice), with some water mixed in.

Well, that would make the steam drill even more effective.

**GoatboyBeta**

Aside from the issues of sample contamination/destruction from a steam drill(or any other kind of drill really). You would still need to get at least 1.5km of hose/cable to a very specific spot on the Martian ice cap. Taking samples from a location like this is going to need boots on the ground with a support and supply chain that only a large scale permanent base could provide.

That said, if life was found more widspreadly on Mars could it cause problems for any colonization plans? Even if its "just" microbes any future Mars base would have to be a lot more carful about contaminating a living world than a dead one.

**Iron_Captain**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aside from the issues of sample contamination/destruction from a steam drill(or any other kind of drill really). You would still need to get at least 1.5km of hose/cable to a very specific spot on the Martian ice cap. Taking samples from a location like this is going to need boots on the ground with a support and supply chain that only a large scale permanent base could provide.

That said, if life was found more widspreadly on Mars could it cause problems for any colonization plans? Even if its "just" microbes any future Mars base would have to be a lot more carful about contaminating a living world than a dead one.

Screw microbes. We need more living space. Either they will adapt to Human influences or they will die out. Most likely, nobody is going to notice either way.

**A Town Called Malus**

cuda1179 wrote:
Jadenim wrote:
I believe most of the ice sheet on Mars is actually CO2 ice (dry ice), with some water mixed in.

Well, that would make the steam drill even more effective.

Where are you getting the steam for your steam drill?

**Spinner**

Ah, yes, humanity needs more lebensraum, screw whatever's down there.

What have microbes ever done for us, after all? There's absolutely no way ET microbes could be a scientific treasure trove.

**Turnip Jedi**

In Sunken Cydonia Dead Cthulhu Lies Dreaming

**Desubot**

Sinful Hero wrote:
Having a machine capable of drilling 100ft remotely would already be a feat of technology. Drilling 1.5km without locking up would be amazing. Drilling it currently with a full crew is already hard enough here on earth.

Wasnt their ideas of using nuclear heated perpetrators drones to just melt through the ice cap on like Europa or something?

one of those moons of Jupiter.

Im hoping for martian crabs or shrimp under the ice.

id eat em.

**Da Boss**

Iron_Captain wrote:
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aside from the issues of sample contamination/destruction from a steam drill(or any other kind of drill really). You would still need to get at least 1.5km of hose/cable to a very specific spot on the Martian ice cap. Taking samples from a location like this is going to need boots on the ground with a support and supply chain that only a large scale permanent base could provide.

That said, if life was found more widspreadly on Mars could it cause problems for any colonization plans? Even if its "just" microbes any future Mars base would have to be a lot more carful about contaminating a living world than a dead one.

Screw microbes. We need more living space. Either they will adapt to Human influences or they will die out. Most likely, nobody is going to notice either way.

Naaah, if we need living space it would be way easier to terraform the parts of Earth which are currently not habitable, like the bottom of the sea or the various deserts than it would be to live on Mars, cool as that would be. The microbes would be fascinating to any evolutionary biologist, giving us insight into how life could have come about independently of life on Earth. Keeping contaminants out of the water is essential if we are to truly understand the martian biome.

That is incredibly exciting stuff.

**Mr Morden**

Turnip Jedi wrote:
In Sunken Cydonia Dead Cthulhu Lies Dreaming

Nah the universe is not that interesting....

**pancakeonions**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
Jadenim wrote:
I believe most of the ice sheet on Mars is actually CO2 ice (dry ice), with some water mixed in.

Well, that would make the steam drill even more effective.

Where are you getting the steam for your steam drill?

The lake under the ice, of course!

**Ketara**

pancakeonions wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
Jadenim wrote:
I believe most of the ice sheet on Mars is actually CO2 ice (dry ice), with some water mixed in.

Well, that would make the steam drill even more effective.

Where are you getting the steam for your steam drill?

The lake under the ice, of course!

If we had ham we could have ham and eggs if we had some eggs....

**Vulcan**

cuda1179 wrote:
If all they need to drill through is ice, would a steam drill be the best method?

For those not in the know, it would look like a plumb bob on the end of a hose. As it is lowered towards the ice it starts shooting out steam or hot air (although other forms of heat could be used, this need not be a quick process).

As the plum bob is lowered it melts, and eventually evaporates, the ice in front of it. The big advantage is that it will always drill strait down, as it is pulled by gravity. Also, as it is basically on the end of hose, no need for adding lengths of ridged pipes to lengthen a normal drill, just roll it up like a garden hose.

The disadvantage is that the steam comes up the hole, condenses out, and freezes the hole shut trapping the hose in place.

Still, for an autonomous probe it's a good idea. It can drill and sanitize its exterior at the same time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iron_Captain wrote:
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aside from the issues of sample contamination/destruction from a steam drill(or any other kind of drill really). You would still need to get at least 1.5km of hose/cable to a very specific spot on the Martian ice cap. Taking samples from a location like this is going to need boots on the ground with a support and supply chain that only a large scale permanent base could provide.

That said, if life was found more widspreadly on Mars could it cause problems for any colonization plans? Even if its "just" microbes any future Mars base would have to be a lot more carful about contaminating a living world than a dead one.

Screw microbes. We need more living space. Either they will adapt to Human influences or they will die out. Most likely, nobody is going to notice either way.

I would think Siberia would provide you Russians with PLENTY of living space, and it's far warmer than Mars is...