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Hello DakkaDakka,

I am beginning the project of modelling a super tiny but plausible group of a Black Templar crusaders.

That is, maximum 10 BT space marines, but each with his own retinue : his servitors, his serfs, his néophyte, etc... So what does the fluff say about this? What would be the ratio of servants for one marine? What are their key-roles (I guess support individuals and maybe a squire-type servitor or two) in the fluff ?

Also same question for a crusade.. How many serfs fighting for one marine on the ground ?

I've gone through some of the Horus Heresy novels (the first 5) so I'm not an expert but...

There seemed to be a lot of support staff on Space Marine ships. Mostly there were servitors, but there were also remembrancers (think writers, artists etc), naval officers etc. This may be the case with a Black Templar crusade fleet.
I also remember that if space marines become injured or are less worthy of battle, they can either die trying or go to train new people, or even become pilots, drivers or work on the ship rather than first line combat.

The Servitors and servants would be quite numerous. They'd need help putting their armor on, repairing it, servicing weapons, proving and loading ammo. Also they'd have personal servants, who would do th emenial stuff (providing food etc) so the marines could conentrate on praying/meditating, training, scheming etc. The servitors roles were highly specialised, as they were pretty stupid and didn't do muich else than one or two tasks.

I can imagine more crusader focuses space marines also havine squires etc, so you could probably guess around 1-3 per space marine, with a few which were shared for certain tasks.

Most Chapters allow failed aspirants (the candidates for becoming a Space Marine) to stay on and serve the Chapter in some capacity, often as serfs or in other support roles. You also have servitors and menial labourers presumably. Black Templars use Neophytes as squires, I think, but that wouldn't be in a 1-to-1 ration as Chapters don't have as many Scouts as they do battle brothers.

As far as actually fighting goes, it's generally not expected that the non-Space Marine parts of the Chapter would fight. During the Tyranid invasion of Baal the Blood Angels armed their serfs and other support staff but that was seen as unusual. A planet-based Chapter may have a Planetary Defence Force to call upon, who are basically Guardsmen, but they would be unlikely to accompany a force on a crusade.

I'd say you're probably best off using your imagination and not restricting yourself though. The nature and role of the support elements of a Chapter hasn't really been fully expanded upon much so you have a blank slate to work with in many ways.

that said a black templar crusade might be accompanied by Imperial Guard Regiments, the ecclessiarchy (both adeptus soratis and fratias milita) and other intreasted parties. An Imperial Crusade army should really be a rich and meaty "soup" army.

Just about every novel that features an attack on an Astartes world describes a standing army of serfs trained and armed for combat. However, after the Horus Heresy this is somewhat problematic. My guess is that officially, no (or not many) chapter serfs are warriors, but in reality a lot of those chapter scribes and chefs are spending all their time drilling with auto guns. I tend to think of it like the Simpsons episode where Mr Burns hired all the ringers for the plant softball team.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Just about every novel that features an attack on an Astartes world describes a standing army of serfs trained and armed for combat. However, after the Horus Heresy this is somewhat problematic. My guess is that officially, no (or not many) chapter serfs are warriors, but in reality a lot of those chapter scribes and chefs are spending all their time drilling with auto guns. I tend to think of it like the Simpsons episode where Mr Burns hired all the ringers for the plant softball team.

I would say its more a case of the Chefs, mechanics and other non-infantry members of an army still being trained to a degree that if the planet wad attacked, they can contribute to the battle rather than be helpless or in the way. Obviously, being part of a Space Marine chapter they would be trained to the highest level the space marine in charge of them could get out of humans, as opposed to Conscripted Guardsmen

 Deadshot wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Just about every novel that features an attack on an Astartes world describes a standing army of serfs trained and armed for combat. However, after the Horus Heresy this is somewhat problematic. My guess is that officially, no (or not many) chapter serfs are warriors, but in reality a lot of those chapter scribes and chefs are spending all their time drilling with auto guns. I tend to think of it like the Simpsons episode where Mr Burns hired all the ringers for the plant softball team.

I would say its more a case of the Chefs, mechanics and other non-infantry members of an army still being trained to a degree that if the planet wad attacked, they can contribute to the battle rather than be helpless or in the way. Obviously, being part of a Space Marine chapter they would be trained to the highest level the space marine in charge of them could get out of humans, as opposed to Conscripted Guardsmen

keep in mind outside of conscripts, guardsmen are actually according to the fluff supposed to be pretty solid. these guys are the cream of their PDZ so the best troops an entire planet can provide