Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is a bit worried about the environment...

In Korea, we get pretty regular "bad pollution" days, where clouds of fine yellow dust sweep through, sometimes so thick you can actually see the stuff. A number of scientists have suggested that the ongoing 'global' heatwave is a result of man-made climate change, and ecosystems across the planet are being decimated to make way for industry, agriculture and housing.

With literal islands of plastic refuse forming in the oceans, is there a way for me to play with my silly little plastic men, and also sleep at night?

Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby, but are there ways of collecting, modeling, painting etc. that if nothing else kind of 'break even' with regards to pollution?
Have any miniatures companies ever addressed this issue? Do you think a big toy-making giant like GW would be willing to cut back, say, on packaging or something?
Or will I have to tell my grandkids before they leave to fight as child-soldiers over the last frozen bodies of unpolluted water "No, but really, the tactical marines set was really good, like, the design was so simple, and yet the parts were just super versatile, like you could do almost anything with that box it was so good, and...."

Cheers for looking!

Making a blood sacrifice to the four in exchange for a more environmentally friendly world is the best we can hope for.

Wargaming is a hobby, one that isn't really needed in the grand scheme of things and can only be considered a waste of resources, a luxury. If you are that serious in your concerns with regards to the enviromental impact there is no real justification you can have for it and no real way to off set it considering the materials used.

As for packaging most companys have already stopped using expanded polystyrene in packaging so other than encouraging them to use cardboard (which the use of can be offset to an extent) instead of clampacks and getting them to stop shrink wrapping stuff (which they won't do) there's not a lot that could be changed really.

Personally I look at the above and think... Well its fun though! and get on with my day

Yeah there is a way.

You can carve your figures in wood. Painting them with natural pigments and make terrain in natural air dry clay.

They sort of have cut back on packing

You used to get cellophane wrap, card sleeve, card box, and a polystyrene tray which was good for making scenery then finally lead minis.

Now you you get cellophane, box and a couple of ABS sprues

They’re also squeezing more into the sprue. And the move to plastic from white metal arguably helps.

Whilst plastic of course comes from oil, mining for the bits and bobs that go into metal minis is arguably more damaging, because of its impact on the immediate local environment, from strip mining to run off.

Your concerns are focused on the least environmental unfriendly parts of the hobby. Where most of the damage lies is logistics, not production. So while not the most ethical or legal, your best way of limiting your environmental footprint is to limit official purchases which have to travel around the world a few times to minimum and recast as much as you can from the most locally produced materials. Or as DanceOfSlaanesh suggested, carve everything yourself from natural, sustainable, biodegradable materials, but even sculpting everything from local green stuff equivalent will have smaller footprint than plastics. In case of AoS you can also play Sylvaneth with actual bonsai trees

As to metal minis, mining and drilling - soft metals are highly recyclable and volume required for a single army is pretty low, so you can cast your entire army from a small heap of old electronic junk if you recycle solder. Or from those old ornamental tin cups that were popular some time ago as house decoration.

But with all that said, your hobby is so tiny part of your personal environmental footprint, that a box or ten of space marines is totally neglectable.

Frankly, I think it would be more impactful to take a hard look back at all the disposable silverware and plates/cups used in your daily life. As one example, how many gamers blow through bottles of flavored drinks while they play and then they go in the trash instead of the recycling? Hell, I watch people throw away bottles which can be returned for a deposit here.

Use public transport to get to/from games (it's going to produce the pollution anyway)

make a few big shopping trips a year rather than many small ones

recycle as much packaging/waste plastic etc as your local system allows

I think, with all things, people need to consider scope and the "guilt" propaganda angle. While I'm not some eco-nut, I'm fully aware we're going down an impossible road with regards to the environment. However, if you want to make some small changes to make yourself feel better, awesome.

There are companies who recycle ABS, as in they say "send us your sprues" - but that still involves shipping them, and all the materials used in that process. Hobbying at the level most people do it is so miniscule, it's one of the places you'd want to concentrate last. As mentioned above, just make sure you recycle your bits, paint bottles (if you don't keep them), etc.

You're still buying and using products made out of plastic. However, consider your 40K army. It probably consists of less plastic than you toss away after one or two trips to the grocery store. I'd concentrate somewhere else first.

Recycle all your rubbish as terrain?

 Elbows wrote:
I think, with all things, people need to consider scope and the "guilt" propaganda angle. While I'm not some eco-nut, I'm fully aware we're going down an impossible road with regards to the environment. However, if you want to make some small changes to make yourself feel better, awesome.

There are companies who recycle ABS, as in they say "send us your sprues" - but that still involves shipping them, and all the materials used in that process. Hobbying at the level most people do it is so miniscule, it's one of the places you'd want to concentrate last. As mentioned above, just make sure you recycle your bits, paint bottles (if you don't keep them), etc.

You're still buying and using products made out of plastic. However, consider your 40K army. It probably consists of less plastic than you toss away after one or two trips to the grocery store. I'd concentrate somewhere else first.

This pretty much. The eco-warrior stuff is largely a nonsense when it comes to actually affecting climate change, individuals can only do a couple of basic things that will have any meaningful impact on the problem when taken collectively. Which isn't to say it's bad or wrong, if that's your philosophy and it makes you happy have at it, but the reality is if you actually want to change things rather than just feel better, your time should be spent with political organising, lobbying, protesting etc, because it's the dreaded Big Gubb'ment that's going to fix the problem if it can be fixed; construction standards, grants for renewables installation, subsidised local public renewable power companies, emissions regulation, investment in public transport, the size of your country's research budget and what it gets spent on and so on, that's where someone needs to put their energy and effort if they want to make a difference rather than just feel like they're making a difference.

The total carbon footprint of the entire global wargames industry would likely be a drop in the ocean compared to even a single national supermarket chain's logistics network. Llamahead's suggestion would probably have a bigger impact than quitting wargaming altogether.

The OP seems to have latched onto the "plastic is bad" idea and taken it to the uneducated level that people use to make environmentalists look stupid.
Plastic is bad for two reason: production and disposal. Of the two, disposal is arguably the worst because plastic doesn't biodegrade. Bottled water (and other drinks) are made from a different kind of plastic than warhammer minis...GW products have more in common with LEGOs and lawn chairs. Any large plastic toy probably contains as much plastic as a small 40K army. So on the production side, unless you have already cut all plastic out of your life you aren't adding much to the global carbon footprint. You allluded to floating islands of plastic, which is the disposal side...guess what? If you aren't throwing your minis in the ocean, they aren't ending up as an island. The packaging is mostly carboard (which you can recycle really easily) and cellophane (which you can usually recycle). Don't throw away the sprues, or find somewhere that recycles that kind of plastic and you're set.

Recycling isn't self-redeeming, though. There is still waste, not to mention the energy required to melt plastic etc. back down and reshape it. Yes, the large-scale political activism matters, but there are things individuals can do, including reducing their consumption.

For wargaming, so long as you don't throw away sprues or broken bits, and shop locally as best you can, you're probably fine.

The most environmentally conscious thing you can do is not to have pets or start a family. Living a shorter life also helps.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
The most environmentally conscious thing you can do is not to have pets or start a family. Living a shorter life also helps.

Killing people works even better.

OP, I assure you that the environmental impact of a reasonable miniature collection is far less that that of the device you posted your question from.

Yep, and I think it's why it's important to separate genuine envrionment impact and "guilt trip sales propaganda" when it comes to stuff like this.

OP, you mirror some of my worries
Over the past few weeks I have found myself becomeing more and more worried about the effect of plastic in the environment, especially the little plastic shavings from removing sprue lines. In fact I have started trying to catch all these offcuts and put them in the bin to ensure they do not enter the environment and contaminate my soil.

There is rumour of a bacteria that eats plastics, but until I see it I will not hold my breath.

Try and buy 2nd hand stuff; it's already been made and doesn't need packaged again.
Similarly; try to buy stuff in person so it doesn't need packed/shipped, or buy in bulk to minimise the shipping overheads.

Plant some trees/plants to offset things. Recycle the unused plastic.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
The most environmentally conscious thing you can do is not to have pets or start a family. Living a shorter life also helps.

Killing people works even better.

Make sure to eat them afterwards, that helps reduces the environmental impact on raising animals for slaughter. Cows produce tons of methane and consume huge amount of food and water resources. Plus if you stick to murdering victims in your local neighborhood it'll further reduce your carbon footprint even more.


While that's a joke, our pollution problems are happening because our population is growing too quickly and as a collective we don't seem to want to do anything about that. Sadly war is one of the few effective ways to deal with over population and strain on resources, at least in the short term. Two world wars killed tens of millions in Europe which probably delayed a huge population boom for a time, but people keep on having packs of kids and don't think about what that does in the long term. Ultimately we're going to hit a critical mass event where we starve and poison the majority of the population out of existence and have a lot of wars over depleted resources.

Overpopulation is too simple an answer.

Limit your trash is the biggest. So you've got the perfect excuse to built terrain or something like that.
Don't overdo your AC when you're playing a wargame. That thing drinks energy.
Use a bike rather than a car.

All of these are but minor things tough (except the AC , it's a big reason the us sits on the top of so many consumption charts.) , but they do hint at the larger problems: transport , trash and energy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah depending on the pet, you can have a lot of plastic if you don't have a dog.

Also since wargaming doesn't require giant fields etc. it's a fairly good hobby to have. (Unlike golf wich is a disaster if played anywhere other than Scotland or ireland).

 master of ordinance wrote:
OP, you mirror some of my worries
Over the past few weeks I have found myself becomeing more and more worried about the effect of plastic in the environment, especially the little plastic shavings from removing sprue lines. In fact I have started trying to catch all these offcuts and put them in the bin to ensure they do not enter the environment and contaminate my soil.

There is rumour of a bacteria that eats plastics, but until I see it I will not hold my breath.

Oh yes there are some bacteria that love plastic. They like to eat roads too. It's why certain infections are common from "road rash".

Genuine answer: Go Vegan.

Others are right to suggest that the effort would be better focused on other areas of your life, and one of the greatest positive impacts you can have on the environment is to reduce/eliminate your consumption of animal products.

In fact, the United Nations published a report in 2010 that urged 'A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change.'

Don't want to derail your thread so feel free to PM me for advice / any questions.

 Rubenite wrote:
Genuine answer: Go Vegan.

This is the worst load of horsemuck to be perpetuated on the internet. Being vegan is actually worse for the environment than having a regular diet as a lot of the soy and palm milk and stuff is farmed in areas of cleared rainforest, and done so in a non-sustainable way.

 Rubenite wrote:
Genuine answer: Go Vegan.

You realize the OP was on the Korean peninsula right? The pollution issues out there aren't tied to meat consumption. It's tied to a massive amount of plastic metal and rare material industrial manufacturing that is, at best, regulated only on paper.

I'm starting to suspect Vegans are like Marijuana users. After a while their lifestyle becomes the solution to everything no matter how hard you shove that square peg into that round hole.

Back on topic, Asia is one of the few places that came claim direct eco damage from the production of miniatures. You could use strictly second hand miniatures and don't use any aresol based paint products (does Korea ban CFLs like here in the states?) but I think you'd be better off reducing your carbon output in ohter parts of your life like transportation and who you elect to power than bringing it into your hobby.

nou wrote:
Your concerns are focused on the least environmental unfriendly parts of the hobby. Where most of the damage lies is logistics, not production. So while not the most ethical or legal, your best way of limiting your environmental footprint is to limit official purchases which have to travel around the world a few times to minimum

Absolutely - if you really care about this then buy your models from manufacturers that produce minis as close to you as possible and, ideally, from raw materials produced locally


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
You could use strictly second hand miniatures

Also a good idea, reuse is dramatically better then recycling.

I was just sent a set of this stuff. It would be interesting to see if it could be used for Wargame models in the future:

https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news-room/2018/march/pfp

It feels a little softer than their usual stuff, but some of that is because their plant pieces are generally more bendy by design. It's still far stiffer than other plastics that are used to make models at least.

master of ordinance wrote:
Being vegan is actually worse for the environment than having a regular diet as a lot of the soy and palm milk and stuff is farmed in areas of cleared rainforest, and done so in a non-sustainable way.

You're right - unsustainable soy farming is destroying the environment and rainforest - though did you know that at least 80% of all soy grown is used to feed livestock animals? When we purchase and consume animal products we are indirectly contributing to this. It is estimated that only 6% of soy grown is directly consumed by humans, mostly in Asia.

ChargerIIC wrote:

You realize the OP was on the Korean peninsula right? The pollution issues out there aren't tied to meat consumption. It's tied to a massive amount of plastic metal and rare material industrial manufacturing that is, at best, regulated only on paper.

It's easy to feel helpless and overwhelmed in the face of things that we don't have much power to change. We can write to our governments and lobby them to change manufacturing regulations but as an individual it can feel like there is not much we can do. However as consumers, we have an enormous amount of power to change things by changing what we buy at the supermarket - and it's a really empowering thought when you realize that we have the power to change things through supply and demand. Of course it's not going to magically fix things overnight, but we can end unnecessary environmentally destructive practices by eliminating the demand for them. If you're worried about plastic in the ocean, you can choose not to eat fish. Almost half of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch is made up of discarded fishing gear.

LunarSol wrote:I was just sent a set of this stuff. It would be interesting to see if it could be used for Wargame models in the future:

https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news-room/2018/march/pfp

It feels a little softer than their usual stuff, but some of that is because their plant pieces are generally more bendy by design. It's still far stiffer than other plastics that are used to make models at least.

This is so great! So by not using oil to produce the plastic there are a whole heap of environmental benefits? Lego is a great comparison to draw to Wargaming as we get to imagine what it would be like if we produced as much plastic as they do. I imagine Lego and Warhammer doesn't really end up in landfill/the ocean as it's very much the opposite of single-use, though I don't have any statistics to back that up. As a wargamer, probably the best thing you can do with your little plastic men is ensure they eventually go to someone else who will also use them and not throw them away? Don't be like that YouTube guy who burned his Dark Elves!

China doesn't give a damn about their employees' safety in their factories, much less environmental pollution.

China gets beat over the head verbally about their nightmarish work conditions and pollution, then they nod and say "OK we will fix it but you also have to put money into a program to fix it". And then they laugh and just fan their toxic dust right over to Korea.

 posermcbogus wrote:
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is a bit worried about the environment...

In Korea, we get pretty regular "bad pollution" days, where clouds of fine yellow dust sweep through, sometimes so thick you can actually see the stuff. A number of scientists have suggested that the ongoing 'global' heatwave is a result of man-made climate change, and ecosystems across the planet are being decimated to make way for industry, agriculture and housing.

With literal islands of plastic refuse forming in the oceans, is there a way for me to play with my silly little plastic men, and also sleep at night?

Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby, but are there ways of collecting, modeling, painting etc. that if nothing else kind of 'break even' with regards to pollution?
Have any miniatures companies ever addressed this issue? Do you think a big toy-making giant like GW would be willing to cut back, say, on packaging or something?
Or will I have to tell my grandkids before they leave to fight as child-soldiers over the last frozen bodies of unpolluted water "No, but really, the tactical marines set was really good, like, the design was so simple, and yet the parts were just super versatile, like you could do almost anything with that box it was so good, and...."

Cheers for looking!

Your gaming has nothing to do with pollution, unless your are over there in Korea huffing paint cans of carcinogens while spraying little Korean kids in the face with them, while you throw your plastic crack in the Han river with reckless abandon....

Seriously, though- Just use common sense. It's really not that hard. Use the sprues and packaging for scenery. Spray less paint when your basing by using spray discipline. Don't buy more then you need. Use human blood for Blood for the Blood god.... You know, common sense stuff.

Global Warming is a false god. Stop praying to that goat and making asshats like Al Gore rich while you listen to his false science. If you want to do something to offset pollution, get a grass roots effort together, and get a bunch of mates to go down to your local riverbank, and start cleaning up garbage, while yo9u put together a collective publicity campaign to draw attention to different spots in Korea that are all Jacked up from sloppy living and pollution. I can think of some serious places to start, such as Soul proper, up on the back side of Young San, Down Gangnam district, where all of the "Fashion Plates" drop their garbage and crap out the back side of the district....

Ours here started small. We have an organization that focuses on different aspects. One is like restoring wetlands, one is like cultivating Oysters, one is like "Save the XYZ" ( depending on the animal.)
Another thing would be to get a group together, such as your gaming group, and do some well publicized public service projects. The more publicity, the better, as you show a before and after picture of a site.

Hope that helps, I did a long time all over Korea, and it wouldn't hurt to start something up like that, the hard thing is to keep it going. As a service project, I wouldn't mind seeing something like "Dive The Han" if you had someone with the balls enough to go in that filth. In that accord, you could get a oyster or clam project going over there, as well...