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I want to run Tzeentch and Khorne Daemons collectively, but i'd rather not have to seperate them into two detachments. It would be much smoother for me to just run them as a Brigade. Would losing the reroll to charges and the weird tzeentch fight phase protection really matter that much? I won't be in the fight phase very often with Tzeentch since ill be bringing loads of 'letters, and letters can already take a stratagem to give them 3d6 charges, negating the need to reroll most of the time anyways.

The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Stux wrote:
The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Thing is, with the stratagem you get an 83% chance to succeed. Add Gaze of Fates and Command Reroll to be able to reroll those dice twice during my charging, and it'd be almost impossible to fail.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Thing is, with the stratagem you get an 83% chance to succeed. Add Gaze of Fates and Command Reroll to be able to reroll those dice twice during my charging, and it'd be almost impossible to fail.

This only works for units with the banner. While you can put it on every unit, you're now paying 2cp per unit. Also what about the Bloodmaster and Skulltaker?

Of course that all depends on what you're bringing. If you only wanted one massive unit of Bloodletters anyway then it's not too bad.

Actually... I don't have the book to hand, but do you not need a Khorne detachment to unlock the strat anyway?

Stux wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Thing is, with the stratagem you get an 83% chance to succeed. Add Gaze of Fates and Command Reroll to be able to reroll those dice twice during my charging, and it'd be almost impossible to fail.

This only works for units with the banner. While you can put it on every unit, you're now paying 2cp per unit. Also what about the Bloodmaster and Skulltaker?

Of course that all depends on what you're bringing. If you only wanted one massive unit of Bloodletters anyway then it's not too bad.

Actually... I don't have the book to hand, but do you not need a Khorne detachment to unlock the strat anyway?

You only need to be a Daemon faction keyword detachment to unlock them. It's the same principal of playing CSM or SM and playing multiple chapters within the same detachment. You lose out on special chapter/legion traits, but you can still use stratagems as far as I know.

Ah fair.

So yeah I guess it really depends how much stuff you're planning to drop!

Of course the more you have the easier it is to divide up the detachments anyway.

Stux wrote:
Ah fair.

So yeah I guess it really depends how much stuff you're planning to drop!

Of course the more you have the easier it is to divide up the detachments anyway.

More or less its just a matter of if the loci are worth more than getting the 2 CP. Especially good considering the CP cost of a daemon army.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Thing is, with the stratagem you get an 83% chance to succeed. Add Gaze of Fates and Command Reroll to be able to reroll those dice twice during my charging, and it'd be almost impossible to fail.

I thought you could only re-roll any dice once?

So if you use a strat or an ability to re-roll a dice, you can't then use a command point to re-roll it again?

Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Thing is, with the stratagem you get an 83% chance to succeed. Add Gaze of Fates and Command Reroll to be able to reroll those dice twice during my charging, and it'd be almost impossible to fail.

I thought you could only re-roll any dice once?

So if you use a strat or an ability to re-roll a dice, you can't then use a command point to re-roll it again?

No single die can be rerolled more than once. This doesn't stop you from rerolling multiple dice inside of one action. Say I whiff HARD on my charge roll on the 3d6 and I get a 2, 6 and 1. I can reroll the 2 with my psychic power, and 1 with the stratagem. I just can't reroll the same die more than once. If I get a 6, 5, 1 roll and I reroll into another 1, there's no stopping that.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Thing is, with the stratagem you get an 83% chance to succeed. Add Gaze of Fates and Command Reroll to be able to reroll those dice twice during my charging, and it'd be almost impossible to fail.

I thought you could only re-roll any dice once?

So if you use a strat or an ability to re-roll a dice, you can't then use a command point to re-roll it again?

No single die can be rerolled more than once. This doesn't stop you from rerolling multiple dice inside of one action. Say I whiff HARD on my charge roll on the 3d6 and I get a 2, 6 and 1. I can reroll the 2 with my psychic power, and 1 with the stratagem. I just can't reroll the same die more than once. If I get a 6, 5, 1 roll and I reroll into another 1, there's no stopping that.

Yeh that's what I thought, just the way it was worded made it sound like they were re-rolling the dice, and then re-rolling the ones he didn't like, which would have been a re-re-roll.

Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Tzeentch one I'm not that fussed about, but the charge re-roll is pretty massive in my opinion.

The thing is, the best way to use 'letters is to deep strike them with the strat. And if you're doing that, you want every possible advantage to make sure the 9" charge has the best chance of going off. The re-roll makes a really big difference to that consistency.

Thing is, with the stratagem you get an 83% chance to succeed. Add Gaze of Fates and Command Reroll to be able to reroll those dice twice during my charging, and it'd be almost impossible to fail.

I thought you could only re-roll any dice once?

So if you use a strat or an ability to re-roll a dice, you can't then use a command point to re-roll it again?

No single die can be rerolled more than once. This doesn't stop you from rerolling multiple dice inside of one action. Say I whiff HARD on my charge roll on the 3d6 and I get a 2, 6 and 1. I can reroll the 2 with my psychic power, and 1 with the stratagem. I just can't reroll the same die more than once. If I get a 6, 5, 1 roll and I reroll into another 1, there's no stopping that.

Yeh that's what I thought, just the way it was worded made it sound like they were re-rolling the dice, and then re-rolling the ones he didn't like, which would have been a re-re-roll.

I mean, with 3d6 the statistics dictate it's a 86% chance to succeed...So the event that i'd need to reroll TWICE would be slim to none of the time.

I'm still miffed that there isn't a bonus for undivided lists, as that's how I ran my daemons for nearly a decade prior to 8E. I almost always had units from each alignment in every list.
But with keyword buffs and detachment requirements, my army all but became Unbound. So I sold them

 Galef wrote:
I'm still miffed that there is a bonus for undivided lists, as that's how I ran my daemons for nearly a decade prior to 8E. I almost always had units from each alignment in every list.
But with keyword buffs and detachment requirements, my army all but became Unbound. So I sold them

I assume you mean that there is -no- bonus for undivided lists?

Also not sure about your problem with detachment requirements... 'Daemon' as a faction still counts just fine, so your old unbound lists of multiple different daemons is exactly as legal now in a single detachment as it has been for the last 10 years.

Literally the only thing you miss out on in an undivided list is the Locus. You even still have Objective Secured troops, as all you need is a valid Daemons detachment (which yours would be).

So yeh, all you miss out on is the Locus, which is a very minor buff for a lot of the armies.
However you could argue that the -benefit- of undivided, is that you can have a much wider variety of units filling weaknesses in your army, which is arguably much more powerful than any of the Locus buffs.

So yeh, your Undivided Daemons army is still legal, still has all the benefits from the current codex, and is probably as powerful as a mono-god army. So unfortunately I think you made a bit of an error in selling them. I'm sure someone on eBay was very happy with the purchase though!

I do think the Loci are pretty important for Khorne and Slaanesh. (Well no one plays Slaanesh as Khorne and even Nurgle do everything what Slaanesh does, but better.) Tzeentch and Nurgle dont need theirs most of the time. My bet would be on playing as many Battalions as possible and leave the Brigade be. Or put your Tzeentch Characters into a mixed Brigade and get a small detachment to put you khornate characters in. Since the release of Codex Dark Eldar I am also a bit underwelmed by what Daemons got with their book. Would be quite cool if Mono God detachments got to pick some Legion rules (as there are several in the Fluff for every God) and there was an additional benefit if you play something of every God. Also it often feels like Daemons got a really small selection of stratagems compared to the other books.

So it turns out losing the loci didnt matter one bit. My 3d6 charge was more than enough (because I only need a 8 with a letter with the instrument) and my opponent couldnt kill either my thirster nor skarbrand as they ran up the field, due to a 4++ from relics and strats on both.

Lucky you, I would miss those 3d6 charges all the time withou the reroll.

Cinderspirit wrote:
Lucky you, I would miss those 3d6 charges all the time withou the reroll.

The average roll on 3d6 is a 10.5 so needing an 8 to charge with the letters means its well over 50/50 chance to get in. You CAN fail it, no doubt there..But it isnt "likely" to happen.

Still I needed the reroll quite a lot in my games. So I wouldnt want to miss out on it.

Cinderspirit wrote:
Still I needed the reroll quite a lot in my games. So I wouldnt want to miss out on it.

Very fair. I'm comfortable in statistics, but I know friends who have MURDEROUSLY bad luck with dice rolls. So I can understand why anything short of a 90% chance isn't too good for some people.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Still I needed the reroll quite a lot in my games. So I wouldnt want to miss out on it.

Very fair. I'm comfortable in statistics, but I know friends who have MURDEROUSLY bad luck with dice rolls. So I can understand why anything short of a 90% chance isn't too good for some people.

On Dakka, if a unit doesn't give you a 99%+ chance of working completely reliably, it is considered garbage.

Also, if a unit can be killed in less than 2 rounds of Imperial Guard anti-tank firepower, or if a unit is unable to destroy a Knight single-handed in a single turn, it is also considered garbage.

Dakka is fun like that!

Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Still I needed the reroll quite a lot in my games. So I wouldnt want to miss out on it.

Very fair. I'm comfortable in statistics, but I know friends who have MURDEROUSLY bad luck with dice rolls. So I can understand why anything short of a 90% chance isn't too good for some people.

On Dakka, if a unit doesn't give you a 99%+ chance of working completely reliably, it is considered garbage.

Also, if a unit can be killed in less than 2 rounds of Imperial Guard anti-tank firepower, or if a unit is unable to destroy a Knight single-handed in a single turn, it is also considered garbage.

Dakka is fun like that!

You forgot 'needs to be cheaper points wise than conscripts.. or garbage.'

 Rismonite wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Still I needed the reroll quite a lot in my games. So I wouldnt want to miss out on it.

Very fair. I'm comfortable in statistics, but I know friends who have MURDEROUSLY bad luck with dice rolls. So I can understand why anything short of a 90% chance isn't too good for some people.

On Dakka, if a unit doesn't give you a 99%+ chance of working completely reliably, it is considered garbage.

Also, if a unit can be killed in less than 2 rounds of Imperial Guard anti-tank firepower, or if a unit is unable to destroy a Knight single-handed in a single turn, it is also considered garbage.

Dakka is fun like that!

You forgot 'needs to be cheaper points wise than conscripts.. or garbage.'

I’d say it’s more like “if it costs more than conscripts, it’s garbage” but you get the idea

I never called anything garbage (Okay, maybe the Slaanesh part of Codex Chaos Daemons..). I just added that I would have missed a lot of 3d6 charges after shocking in my games. And since this is my experience I tend to take the reroll the Loci grants.

Cinderspirit wrote:
I never called anything garbage (Okay, maybe the Slaanesh part of Codex Chaos Daemons..). I just added that I would have missed a lot of 3d6 charges after shocking in my games. And since this is my experience I tend to take the reroll the Loci grants.

Bare in mind I was also playing Tzeentch boys, meaning I had Gaze of Fates to reroll a charge die. Although I never needed it, it was still there. The amount of times 3d6 wouldnt get an 8+ with one rerolled die is hilariously slim.