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Hello: I have posted this thread several days ago, but have decided to post it again as no responses have been made, and usually I have had responses within a day of posting something. I apologize for the repetition, but I need advice before making my upcoming army purchase.
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I am a 40k casual getting back into the game, hoping to find some good casual games with at least a good amount of skill involvement.

Here is the list so far: I need to see if this is a strong base for a Space Marine army (successor chapter of the Salamanders). I have been told in previous attempts that Salamanders want multiple small units to keep firepower levels high while remaining able to take objectives. The list includes a single Brigade.


HQ:

Captain: Sentinel Jace "Jethro" Lyons
-Relic Blade
-Combi-Plasma
(99 Points)

Lieutenant (2)
-Bolter and Chainsword
(60 Points each)


Troops:

-4 Tact Squads (5 men with 1 HB) (75 points each)

3- Scout Squads (assuming 10 man (?) with vanilla loadout) (110 points each)

-4 Razorbacks with HBs and Stormbolters (84 points each)


Heavy Support:

-2 Dev squads (10 Men with 4 lascannons/squad)
(230 points each)


So far, this leads up to 1,645 points out of 2,000. I am wondering if:

#1: This core list is adequate for a versatile but shooting-oriented army for good casual games

#2: Which other items would be recommended to fill the remaining 355 points. So far, some ideas include using a couple dreadnoughts with lascannons and missile launchers (145 each), or a few predators (destructor 159 pts, annihilator 190 pts). Or any other suggestions such as a land raider instead of 2 razorbacks to transport a 10 man squad.

Again, I am going for objective holding as my main mode of winning, but want to be firepower based and have the capability to deal with the common horde armies and their armored targets in a casual environment with a relatively high play level (almost competitive). I figured this list would be a good start with scouts and tactical marines to push forward while devastators and other big guns hang back.

Thank you, and let me know what would be best for this play style with those extra 355 points.

Hey man, don't play space marines myself but I can tell you what is a pain to play against. Hellblaster squads are reliable troop killers and if you stick them next to a captain and overcharge they seem to chop through bigger stuff too. I'd take a couple of the minimum sized units (for the salamander trait).
Also with all those troops you really ought to take two battallions over the single Brigade, you're short 3 fast attack, 3 elites and 1 heavy with this current list.

There are a lot of psychic powers flying about in our local scene. So a librarian or two wouldn't be a bad choice. Psychic Fortress can be really handy with mortal wound armies, necrons, thousand sons etc.

So hellblasters are an idea? Should I lower the troop amounts or keep them as is (are the tact squads, scouts, and razorbacks okay for now)?

Also, what about predators or dreadnoughts? Would they be a good fit?


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Also, if I take 2 squads of 5 hellblasters with assault incinerators (170 each with vanilla sergeant), should I find space for a Repulsor (270 points)? If so, what should be taken out? If not, would I invest in one if I have a 2,500 point list?

If you're running predators you generally want to run 3 for the kill shot stratagem. Plus if you run one he'll get focused on pretty quickly. Dreads can be useful but you'd have to chop out a lot of troops to fit them in. I think the Razorbacks and tac squads are good as is. Stormravens with multi meltas could be a useful replacement for loads of mobility and some extra firepower. I've not seen many repulsors in use out and about, they could be ok but the 45 inch move and -1 hit are pretty useful. But you might need a couple to give your opponent some targeting headaches

Ok then, what about the scout squads? Do I need 3 squads of 10? Because I could take some out (maybe run 2 squads of 10 to try and make room for 3 predators. Unfortunately, a 2000 point list would mean that I can only run 3 anti-infantry or possibly 2 and one lascannon build. It will be a stretch point wise. I have 8 lascannons among my devastators, so that might be enough...

If I take out a scout squad, I would be left with 465 points left, which is enough for 3 predators with HBs and an autocannon.

Does that sound smart? It would also mean no hellblasters. (of course, I could make my games all 2,500 points, or swap out forces depending on overall hoardy-ness)


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Or, just off the top of my head, I could make my devs missile launchers instead of lascannons, which would chop off 200 points from the list. Plus missiles can be more versatile than lascannons at a slightly lower power.


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...No that's wrong. Twin lascannons are 50 points. Nevermind that missile launcher theory



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Unless anyone thinks missiles are better overall than lascannons in 8th edition. Then I may still consider it.

3 predators can be pretty effective. I really like the 2 las and autocannon for a bit of versatility. Also with tge devastaors you could take 2 las 2 missle so you have a bit more versatility. You'd have 10 lascannon 4 missle and 3 predator autocannon. Which is enough for most armies. You might still struggle against pure knights, but any list built to play knights will make you come unstuck against any hoarde army. I think small squads is the way to go, especially with salamanders. Means that there's a good chance of your opponent oberkilling ypur squads and less damage from morale. You will give up kill points but generally hold more objectives.


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Also if you probably want to put yhe predators in a ravenwing detachment with a captain for that -1 to hit. Makes them a bit more survivable on the backlines

What's your Chapter Tactic?
Why are you minimising it with max size squads?

Chapter tactic is Master Artisain. And I know that small squads are best, but the devs need meat shields, and scouts are weaker and meant to hold objectives for long enough to get backup.

Should the scouts be split into smaller squads or lessened/removed in numbers? I like the predator idea but would need to come up with points for it (539 to be exact)



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If anyone has a full list idea to give me, I am willing to view and consider it.

I know what the chapter tactic is. Wasn't sure if you did.

Salamanders are the classic MSU list - use it as such.

Forget Predators. You need 3 and if 1 dies you lose the strat which is the only reason to (maybe) take them.

Your CT applies to Drednoughts too, so not a bad buy, and they can get cover easy enough for a 2+

Run your Devs in 5's with a cherub, max 2 heavy weapons per squad.

Scouts are for table control and are meant to die at some stage. Use 5's and keep them cheap - there is an argument for the odd HB for the strat and the reroll.

Ok then... if I use entirely MSUs (but would rather keep the 4 heavy weapons if possible in dev squads for maximum firepower and versatility, using missiles and lascannons), would a good list look something like:

HQ:

Captain: Sentinel Jace "Jethro" Lyons
-Relic Blade
-Combi-Plasma
(99 Points)

Lieutenant (2)
-Bolter and Chainsword
(60 Points each)


Troops:

-4 Tact Squads (5 men with 1 HB) (75 points each)

-3 Scout Squads (5 men with HB) (65 points each)

-4 Razorbacks with HBs and Stormbolters (84 points each)


Heavy Support:

-2 Dev squads (5 Men with 2 lascannons and 2 launchers/squad, cherub)
(170 points each, unless multiple cherubs can be taken, then will have 185 point cost per squad)
______________________________________________________________________________
Total: 1,260 points
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OPTIONS:

-Hellblaster Squad (5 men with Assault Plasma Incinerators, sergeant with plasma pistol)
(177 points each)

-Dreadnought (Missiles and Twin Lascannons)
(145 points each)

-Land Raider (to possibly replace 2 razorbacks and carry 2 5 man tact squads)
(357 Points)

-Land Raider Crusader (same as regular land raider)
(287 Points)

... or any other suggestions to be made





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Also, would stormravens be a good investment over land raiders?


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Or a repulsor for hellblasters if those are selected?

So playing around on battlescribe, I'd run something along these lines. The Storm Shield Thunder Hammer Terminators would fit in the storm raven, you can add the Teleport Homer in case ypu get shot down T1. If you can fly up, shoot some big stuff and drop Termie T2 to lock down units for a Looooong time. Once had an assault squad hold up 2 daemon princes and a soul grinder for a full game.

My thoughts anyways. Can use the extra to split up devastaors or whatever you want to do.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [42 PL, 606pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Salamanders

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 93pts]: Combi-plasma, Power sword, The Burning Blade, Warlord

Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]
. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 95pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter

Razorback [5 PL, 95pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter

Razorback [5 PL, 95pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [80 PL, 1382pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Salamanders

+ HQ +

Librarian [6 PL, 96pts]: Boltgun, Force stave

Lieutenants [4 PL, 60pts]
. Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 103pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 103pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 103pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

+ Elites +

Terminator Assault Squad [12 PL, 235pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. 4x Terminator w/THSS: 4x Storm shield, 4x Thunder hammer

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 352pts]: Twin assault cannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers

++ Total: [122 PL, 1988pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

This list looks reasonable, but are the terminators needed? My experience with them in other editions have been... less than favorable to say the least. You know better than I do though, so I'll still consider it.

It seems predators are not the best choice here, but what about dreadnoughts? Should I invest in a couple for switch outs or replacements of this current list?

Also, it would be correct to say that I have 2 LT's, a Captain, and a Librarian for my HQ? Just to be sure the numbers are correct.




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So far, this would give me the following firepower loadout to deal with...

Troops:
-Enough Bolter/pistol rounds to sink a small Tyranid fleet
-6 Heavy Bolters (3 twin, possibly more if I decide to make each scout squad carry one)
-A Twin Assault Cannon
-Frag missiles

Armor:
-Krak Missiles
-3 Hunter-Killers
-4 Lascannons
-Twin Multi-Melta
-Stormstrike Missiles
-4 Thunder Hammers with health insurance


Does this seem like enough to be versatile against hordes and armor at the same time? (Obviously not for grey knights or armor heavy forces which seem to require their own build-around to beat).

Yes that's correct for HQ's.

With the Termies, it's always nice to drop something in close to supprise your opponent although I'm sure you could drop tacticals or devestators with meltas or flamers for a similar effect. You would have to be careful positioning your stormraven out of threat of some big guns but you can plant it in the back corner and be virtually anywhere at the start of the next turn.

I think MarkM is right about Devs btw, you'd be better with more small squads with 1 missle 1 las with the salamander's trait. I think it's a fairly versatile list tbf. Plus only a very few drops so better chance of starting t1.

Alright, what about you MarkM? Do you think this list is potent enough?

When playing Salamanders my general rule is:

Put single shot heavy weapons into infantry squads, put multiple shot weapons onto vehicles.

So for example - 5 Tacticals with a heavy bolter is not going to get as much out of those re-rolls as a lascannon or missile launcher for example.
Razorbacks on the other hand don't get a re-roll, so may as well go for the Assault Cannons.

A somewhat cheesy approach due to the rule of 3:

3 x 5 man tacticals with Lascannons
3 x 5 man scouts with Missile Launchers
3 x 5 man devestators with 2 Lascannons each

That gives you 12 Lascannon / Missile Launchers you can re-roll to hit and wounds. On the Devs, statistically the other should hit / wound by itself and the other 3 models are just ablative wounds. I find putting more than 2 heavy wespons with Salamanders is just an inefficient use of points. Best of all, those guns are all scattered amongst several units, all that can sit in cover making them remarkably durable.

That leaves the need for anti-infantry weapons which as said, I prefer on vehicles for Salamanders. Razorbacks that don't get the re-rolls work well with Assault Cannons / Heavy Bolters (if you want to save points). Venerable Rifle Dreads hit reliably and can deal very well with more durable infantry (re-rolls included). You have the obvious bolters in your squads (33) and season the rest as you like.

The only downside being that such an approach lends itself to a more static playstyle which in turns puts you at a disadvantage in most Objective based matches.

Joseph,

you are right about Termies - they suck this edition. Just look at all the threads proposing how to make them viable.

Sumilidon,
IIRC the rule of 3 doesn't apply to troops.

Joseph,
After your core 2 HQ, 3 Tacticals, 2/3 scouts, 3 dev squads, 3 razorbacks, you have a choice. to fill in the remaining ~ 1000 points.

Flyers - not the most efficient of SM units but still useable and give some good movement and can also block enemy movement especially when used in 2's or 3's.

Dreds - gain the salamander trait, can easily get a 2+ save and can be built for cc, anti-inf or anti-tank.

Primaris - Hellblaster, Inceptors and Aggressors are all decent and get a small bonus with the CT. Inceptors are good as a 'drop' unit and have fly, which you are short of; Hellbasters have good ranged and Aggressors mulch hordes and are surprisingly good AT with double fists.

There is no 'right', but there are some wrong choices.

Unfortunately the game is expensive in money and esp.time so choosing well will save money and time

Good luck

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Also, I didn't see the new post from MarkM before I posted my current one, so I'll need to reconsider.


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___________________________________________________________________________________________________
EDITED LIST AS OF MarkM's POST: PLEASE USE THIS LIST
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Troops:
-3x Scout Squad (5 men with missiles) (80 points each)
-3x Tactical Squad (5 men with lascannons) (90 points each)
-3x Razorback (Twin assault cannons, storm bolters, hunter-killer missiles) (108 points each)

Heavy Support:
-3x Dev squad (5 men with 1 lascannon/1 missile launcher each) (115 points each)

HQ:
-Sentinel Jace "Jethro" Lyons (Power Sword (The Burning Blade {of course, Row-Row-Row Your Boat Girlyman already has it so I'll just nickname it 'Salamandra'}, Combi-Plasma,
Warlord (93 Points)
-2x LT (Bolter, Chainsword) (60 points each)

_____________________________________________________________________________
Running Total: 1,392 Points
_____________________________________________________________________________




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The inceptors would be 180 points just to have 3 models (30 for model and 15 for each assault bolter), so those don't sound very attractive numbers-wise...

That said, I like how hellblasters and dreadnoughts look, but I would need transport for the hellblasters and only a repulsor can do that (nearly 300 points if I recall correctly, if not more).

Aggressors sound decent enough, but are 53 points per model if flamestorms are used (for said hoard mulching and can-opening) and again require a repulsor.

I only have a small advice, don't run a single flyer, especially if it's loaded with infantry. So whatever you do don't field the single storm raven, it will just die turn 1, almost 100% of the times.

Terminators with shield and hammers are quite strong but they "must" make that charge, so if they come in deep strike they really need veil of time.

MarkM wrote:
Joseph,

Sumilidon,
IIRC the rule of 3 doesn't apply to troops.

I genuinely thought it did. Oh well, back to some good old fashioned Kabalite spam for me


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Oh and so forgot to add that I am also a fan of the somewhat unpopular Land Seeder Storms. Sure they are squishy but they have served me very well in games. They fill an objective grabbing gap for me.

If my opponent targets them, that's weapons not aimed at my Razorbacks.
They're very fast
They can tie up units, retreat and fire
You can sit your scouts in them, stay still and use it as extra armour.
If you have an objective you need, fly across the board and keep holding it by dropping your passengers (if you have them in)
Want to get away from a horde of Gaunts? Fly on top of a building further away.

Nice and flexible, quite inexpensive and as said, I always take at least 1 every game.

Ok, so say I decide for storms... what about your opinion on dreads and hellblasters (now the hellblasters will have no transport if there isn't space for a repulsor, so they'll be slogging it)?

-I like the dreadnought idea personally, as I enjoyed playing with them in 5th and 6th. Obviously now they have a ridiculous buffing. I would use 145 point models with twin lascannons and missile launchers if given the opportunity. Should I invest in 2 or 3? (remember I have 608 points left after the red highlighted list, and if I use a brigade, I don't have to field a 4th HQ and only lose 1CP)


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And also what about land raiders? I could field one and have another 2 tactical squads or have 2 5 man devs with troop killers in them (HBs, HFs, Plasma Cannons).


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Another Idea I had once was 3 stormhawk interceptors.

Honestly it depends a lot upon what you intend your play style to be. Im not a fan of hellblasters in a Repulser as essentially anything in that tank cant shoot and hellblasters are best used from the very start. There are better units for getting into transports.

Also, I just don't like the Repulser as they're just too expensive.

Generally it depends a lot on your opponent. Dreadnaughts against Tau won't last long, yet against Custodes would be awesome. For a general all comers list, I like the dreadnoughts as venerable variants with a lot of Dakka. My troops handle the Anti Tank, my dreadnought and razorbacks deal the anti infantry damage. Personally, I like to keep 2 Storms with scouts in them on either side of the board (remain static to start with, firing away), my Razorbacks equally spaced and my Deeadnaught I place last. When it comes time to push forward, the Razorbacks, Storms and Scouts (in Storms) are the people to do it.

Hellblasters don't need transport. They have decent range and 2+ in cover, plus a flexible weapon loadout.

3 stormhawks is fun. Ran them in my BA list as I only had Capt. Bash as anti-air.

Dreds, with buffs, are decent, and I too like the models and you get a huge range of loadouts to pick from.

Inceptors cost 45 each. The 15 pts is for a pair of guns.
Ditto Aggressors - 37 pts each.

Sumilidon wrote:
Honestly it depends a lot upon what you intend your play style to be. Im not a fan of hellblasters in a Repulser as essentially anything in that tank cant shoot and hellblasters are best used from the very start. There are better units for getting into transports.

Also, I just don't like the Repulser as they're just too expensive.

Generally it depends a lot on your opponent. Dreadnaughts against Tau won't last long, yet against Custodes would be awesome. For a general all comers list, I like the dreadnoughts as venerable variants with a lot of Dakka. My troops handle the Anti Tank, my dreadnought and razorbacks deal the anti infantry damage. Personally, I like to keep 2 Storms with scouts in them on either side of the board (remain static to start with, firing away), my Razorbacks equally spaced and my Deeadnaught I place last. When it comes time to push forward, the Razorbacks, Storms and Scouts (in Storms) are the people to do it.

Forgot to mention, if I'm facing Eldar, Tyranids or a hoard army, I instead group my 3 Razorbacks together with the Dreadnaught and spend 3CP to make my Captain a Chapter Master. Being able to reroll all failed hits for 36 Assault Cannon shots and 8 Autocannon shots squishes a hell of a lot of bugs, guardsmen and T3 Eldar.

Ok then... any loadout opinions for a Land Speeder Storm or a Group of Stormhawks?


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got 608 points to work with if I use the current list total.


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So if I go for land speeder storms and dreadnoughts, I could just take 2 scout squads? Would that be recommended, or is three better and have one deploy near an objective and run it?

A storm would be 85 points total and be decent with infantry due to open topped scouts, so that would leave me with 428 points to work with if I went with 2.

A standard loadout Stormhawk is 164 points, meaning I could run 3 for 492 points. If I remove a scout squad it frees up 80 points and leaves me with 16 points to spare.

How does this sound? Does the army still look versatile enough for anti armor and anti horde? Or should I field 3 dreadnoughts instead of 3 stormhawks (around 150 points each or less, depending on loadout, so I could run 2 storms with them)


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...For general background and trashy fanfic reasons, I also thought you all would be amused with the irony of a salamanders successor chapter being based off a Research Station on a frozen planet

Just a thought but being a fellow Salamanders player have you considered putting the HBs on your Scouts and putting Missile Launchers on Devs squads
Scouts can then use hellfire shells and be more useful

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Captain: Sentinel Jace "Jethro" Lyons
-Power Sword
RELIC: The Burning Blade
WARLORD: IRON RESOLVE
-Combi-Plasma
(93 Points)

Lieutenant (2)
Bolter and Chainsword
(62 Points each)
120

Troops:

-4 Tact Squads (5 men with 1 HB) (75 points each)
300

3- Scout Squads 5 (?) with HB) (65 points each)
195

-4 Razorbacks with Lascannon & Twin Plasma (115 each)
460

Devastator Squad (5 men with 4 MLs)
165

Devastator Squad (5 men with 4 MLs)
165

1498


1500 point list for you

If I put in 2 scout squads, I could transport them in Storms. But would you say a third is necessary? Plus I think that MarkM is right about devs having only 2 heavy weapons per squad and a cherub for each of them. Also cuts down on points used.

I also like the use of the 3 tact squads with a lascannon each idea here. I'm going for versatility, and if I have:

-3 Twin Assault Cannons (razorbacks)
-2-4 Missile Launchers
-3 Hunter-Killers
-5-7 Lascannons
-30+ bolters/stormbolters

...I believe that this should be sufficient for numerous situations. Do you agree to this?

(Plus, the Chapter Master + Dreadnought + 3 Assault Cannon Razorbacks sounds deliciously mean)


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And I would still have around 500 points left if I included the 2 storms, if I go down to 2 scout squads- leaving the rest for dreadnoughts and possibly 3 stormhawks if some other small cuts are made



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Could also run hellblasters...



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Also, why aren't dreadnoughts given the option to have 2 autocannons in the 8th edition codex? Only the predator autocannon exists...

AND THE AUTOCANNON IS MY FAVORITE WEAPON!!!!

So. Much. THUMPING.


*****EDIT*****
-Is the Reaper Autocannon listed the twin-linked autocannon? If so I feel smart now...

You can use A/C Dred's using the Index

As for Dred's Vs StormHawks. Different jobs. Dreds are generally anti-armour/light vehicle (depends what you arm them with). But tend to be a bit static.

StormHawks are anti-air and also block enemy movement very well. Less good at foot troops due to the -2 to hit.


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Basically no right answer

FWIW I have run both (not as Salamanders tho') and like both. The use of the CT on Dreds may swing it in their favour.

And you say that aggressors are good even if slogging it due to their flamestorms and can openers?

I may run 6 if I use a couple dreadnoughts, as a reaper autocannon is only 17 points (which I am assuming is the dreadnought cannon, as there is no "index" in the 8th edition codex- juat a points values list and general weapon descriptions).


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Also, are all base sizes 32mm now? I've read that that is the standard for infantry and non-commander primaris models


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My mistake. Primaris is 40mm and scouts are 25mm

Before the codexes (codii?) came out there were 3 Indexes produced.

These were generally superceded by the Codexes but GW did a flowchart whereby you can use Index weapons if you have those models and they are not available in the Codex.

Eg. You cannot do a rifleman dred from the codex, but you can via the Index.

Hope that makes sense!

Oh, and for Aggressors you use the Boltstorm gauntlets. If they stand still, 6 of them average 114 shots

Ok, so a rifleman dreadnought looks to be 130 points. So I could put in two of those and have 348 points left. That's enough for 6 aggressors, leaving me 114 points.


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meaning I could cut 3 points out and put in another 3 aggressors

That would put me at...
-3 HQ
-6 Troops
-5 Elites
-2 Heavy Support
-3 Transport

Which is just short one heavy support option to be a brigade... so maybe more devs is best instead of 3 more aggressors. Just have to cut 1 point from somewhere (if anyone minds...)