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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Had this thought about a way to help tone down the power of Marines and to some extent Chaos.

The basic change it to make it so that Marine Squads that aren't at full strength (10 marines for loyalists, unmarked or MOCU traitors, or favored number for cult specific Chaos squads) can not take both a heavy and special weapon (or two specials in the case of Chaos and C&P Trait Marines).

The basic overpowering problem with Marines currently is that .they can be min/maxed so effectively with 5 or 6 man squads to get Las/Plas which makes for great anti-tank and anti-MEQ for such a low points costs.   Remove the ability to take two high strength low-ap weapons from undersized marine squads and you will have gone a long way towards helping tone down the cheese that Marines can bring to the table.

Sure you can still be relatively cheesy with just a 5 or 6 Man Lascannon squad, but at least it's not as bad as it is now. 

Thoughts?
   
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


You do know basic CSM squads (strangely) go up to 20 models right?

Anyway, the idea (or some form of it) isn't bad at all, but if you take basic marines (with no upgrades) and put them up against an equal amount of points of a non-MEQ basic troop the marine is clearly too cheap.

I still think a simple points increase it what is needed. Marines, Necrons and SOBs are all too cheap when you compare them to other non-MEQ basic troops.

A basic Marine should probably be 18, Necron 20 and SOB 13 or 14 points.


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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Posted By yakface on 06/15/2006 2:42 AM

You do know basic CSM squads (strangely) go up to 20 models right?

Anyway, the idea (or some form of it) isn't bad at all, but if you take basic marines (with no upgrades) and put them up against an equal amount of points of a non-MEQ basic troop the marine is clearly too cheap.

I still think a simple points increase it what is needed. Marines, Necrons and SOBs are all too cheap when you compare them to other non-MEQ basic troops.

A basic Marine should probably be 18, Necron 20 and SOB 13 or 14 points.

Guess I should have paid more attention to the Chaos Dex then, no I didn't see that till you pointed it out.

I think that the same rules would apply though, reguardless.  Just a requirement for 10 Marines in the troop squad to be able to take a Heavy and Special or two special weapons.

I think the real problem is that Marines can be so efficiently min/maxed to an extent that really makes them over efficient for what they do.  A min/maxed Las/Plas squad of 5 or 6 Marines is extraordinarily underpointed, the idea is to fix that.

While on the surface I agree with your assessment that the MEQ (or Power Armor in general) is just way undercosted, you can't just up the points a bit and call it good. 

If a Marine costs 18 Points, then how much more should a Grey Knight cost?  How much for a Thousands Sun Ruberic Marine? Cult Marked Chaos Marines?  A lot of these things (such as GK's and Ruberic Marines) are considered very overcosted for what they do, and would still be even if they stood at their current points level and everything else increased in points.

You still don't get around the fact that even if Marines cost 18 Points, a Necron Costing 20 Points gets you a lot more in return for just 2 points.  That's the problem really, you're never going to get exact point parity between units in different armies, only approximations. 

Also while this really doesn't have much impact on what should and should not be done with the rules, GW will never increase the poinits costs of Marines to something higher since it would reduce the number of Marine Models needed to field a 1500 Point army.   It's kind of sad, but I'm pretty certain this is the reason that the Assault Cannon got the power boost that it did from the games dev team, it envigorated the sales of Landspeeders, Normal Terminators, and Dreads, which as far as I could tell weren't used all that much under 3rd ed.
   
Made in se
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Swerike

some really simple rebalancing

1. Increase the cost of basic marines to 16 or 17 pts.
2. Clarify that if you buy two psychic powers they both use the second pts listing.
3. Increase the cost of the assault cannon by 10pts.(115pts dreadnought,90pts Tornado,+30pts for Termies)
4. Clarify that Whirlwind mines hit ALL models moving over the template.
5. Make the Commanders ability LOS only like the Etheral.

thoughts?

With the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim. Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY, REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time... 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Posted By Banesword on 06/15/2006 5:04 AM
some really simple rebalancing

1. Increase the cost of basic marines to 16 or 17 pts.
2. Clarify that if you buy two psychic powers they both use the second pts listing.
3. Increase the cost of the assault cannon by 10pts.(115pts dreadnought,90pts Tornado,+30pts for Termies)
4. Clarify that Whirlwind mines hit ALL models moving over the template.
5. Make the Commanders ability LOS only like the Etheral.

thoughts?

1.) Increasing the cost to that points level would be warranted if other changes aren't done.
2.) While I don't agree with the rules interpretation that you should do this NOW, I think it'd be fair to have it changed to that officially.
3.) I'd rather not increase the cost of the assault cannon.  Simply make it that it's rending vs. infantry and not armor.  Problem Solved.
4.) Are Whirlwinds w/ Mines that over effective that they require a nerf?  I don't see so many 3 Whirlwind armies out there, most people opt for Preds or Devs instead.
5.) Probably a good change, but it would decrease the amount of people who take him.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Philadelphia, PA

Why does a SM get a discounted BS4 lascanon at 15 pts while a BS3 IG trooper pays 25 pts? Of course thjey are going to min/max to get the good weapons.

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Fresh-Faced New User




 I like it the change.  It's nice, simple and effective.  It really only affects min/maxers, and is easy to comply with in terms that GW can appreciate (Q:  'I have 6 squads of 6 troops!  What am I supposed to do now?'  A: 'Buy 2 1/2 boxes of space marines!')  The rule would also be easy to publish as a simple update to the codex.

 Changing point costs require a some degree of balancing across all the armies, which can be fairly complicated.  I was hoping they were going to address it when they released 4th Ed, but I digress...

 

   
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Sister Oh-So Repentia




Northeast USA

Step 1: Drop ATSKNF

Step 2: There's no step 2, marines would be 100% balanced.

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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Posted By stecal on 06/15/2006 5:58 AM
Why does a SM get a discounted BS4 lascanon at 15 pts while a BS3 IG trooper pays 25 pts? Of course thjey are going to min/max to get the good weapons.

Simple really.

With the way IG are now, you buy them in platoons, and if Lascannons were say 10 Points and Plasmaguns were only 5 Points, then you'd have a 10 Man Guard squad with Las/Plas cost only 75 Points, where they could take an ungodly number of these squads.  Remember that while a 5 or 6 Man Las/Plas squad for Marines is highly effective and very undercosted you can only ever take 6 of them before you run out of FoC slots.

You could fit quite a lot more Las/Plas squads into a guard army, especially if they were as cheap in relation to what the SM's pay for their guns.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Thats 85 points per squad for IG squad. Lets pro-rate the costs of the minimal JSO for four squads (40 points)
you're up to 95 points.

vs. 155 for the marine squad (ten men). Lets say you have a 1000 points to dedicate for lascannons. The differential is there but not substantial.

Pt per squad BS chance to hit No. shots per points No. hits per turn
95 3 0.4998 10.52631579 5.261052632
155 4 0.6664 6.451612903 4.299354839

This does not account for plasmas, which statistically would cause far greater casualties to the IG themselves from overheat than would impact the marines (especially rapid fire), nor does it take into account bolter/lasgun firepower.


Inverse and go min/man with 5 man marine squads (again just lascannons). The numbers start to get freaky strong for the marines. Thats a 50% greater hit number.

Pt per squad BS chance to hit No. shots per points No. hits
95 3 0.4998 10.52631579 5.261052632
85 4 0.6664 11.76470588 7.84



1000

Yes marines take less lascannons, but this costs disproportionately higher for IG (without all the other marine benefits), leaving the marines to allocate points on other areas.

Of course, if I've done my numbers wrong then I'll have to reply "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor not a mathematician!"


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Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

I agree with Yak...a points boost (17-18) would solve most of the problem.

Their HQ units (particularly the Librarian and Commander) are also underpriced as is. So either give them a points hike or tone down their abilities. I wish they'd use the FAQ as a opportunity to tone down Fury (make it require LOS), but if the Spanish ones are any indication, that's not going to happen.

SMs have a list of advantages a mile long, but I wouldn't mind them if they just paid an appropriate points cost for them.

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Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





All I have to say is 24 inch Fear.... Not cool....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

I would agree with Ixe, w/o ATSKNF marines are 15pt models.

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
Made in se
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Swerike

But that's like saying, without we'll be back necrons are 18pts models. You cant just remove what makes them space marines.
Higher points cost for marines is better, preventing hordes of marines that still have their uber stat lines.

With the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim. Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY, REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time... 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

Without WBB necrons would be 13pt models (gauss weapons are decent but lack of CC ability is huge)

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
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Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

also, heavy weapons are more expensive if you can have more of them in a Squad. just compare Tactical Squad Lascannons with Devastator Lascannons
   
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Dives with Horses

Another thing that would balance out marines per points is to bring back the save modifier.

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





Necron Warriors 20 points? Okay can they regroup if under half strength now? Can they reroll failed moral checks? Can they still be sweeping advanced? Why aren't these machines fearless? I'd pay 20 points if they were fearless and make their weapon skill 3 to compensate. Codexes are being rereleased to make armies competitive to the 40k standard (The Space Marines) The Necron Codex will likely not be rereleased because A) Necrons are pretty damn good, B) Their special rules are exclusive to their own race and for the most part do not differ from the Universal Special Rules and C) The design team seem to have little interest in them at all. They lack the character and fluff that make all the other armies so much more fun.

I still have trouble against Marines with my Necron army because I haven't adopted one of the 2 ways the army has to be played to be competitive. A competitive list has a configuration of Warriors, a Lord, 2 Monoliths, Immortals. Maybe if there are some points to burn (and there rarely are) a few scarab swarms. Its a boring army. I try to include units that play differently, I love my Deciever and use him every game. They play like they are described in the fluff. Deadly, swift and efficient. The only units that need to be changed are Wraiths (Make them 40 points even, Necrons don't have filler wargear to complete a list) and Pariahs need to become Necrons.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




The British Army, so could be any old sh*t hole in the world.

How about taking the heavy weapon choice out of Tac Squads?

They can still have two special weapons.

SERPENTE A LA PORPE 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




There's somthing I think your all missing here, GW just redid the SM dex and there's little chance of them ever nerfing there glory boys. The fact that marines basic gun shoots threw just about every other armies armor like tissue paper sucks, the fact that there under priced sucks, there no fear rule is over powering but we'll just have to get over it and try to over come.
   
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Been Around the Block





Congratulations aauugh:

This is the "proposed rules" forum.  As in: rules that people propose that they think will make the game better.  Nobody here actually believes these rules will be instituted, especially rules that nerf the smurfs.  This is purely hypothetical.  If you feel like it, you can join in.  Use your imagination; come with me, take my hand as we journey into that marvelous place that is a fair and balanced 40k.

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Made in us
Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver




Posted By the cabbage on 06/19/2006 4:40 AM
How about taking the heavy weapon choice out of Tac Squads?

They can still have two special weapons.


Two plasma guns with tank hunters in a CSM army makes em almost as good with more shots at closer range.

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




The British Army, so could be any old sh*t hole in the world.

But more balanced I think.

Although they have more shots they become more pricey and I was really surprised last night that only one out of four self immolated.

My maths may be dodgy but I have calculated that in a six turn game if you start with six plasma gunners and assume two shots each every turn five are likely to die by overheating.  Not that good, that around 10% of a fifteenhundred point army killed by itself.

Now a couple of infiltrating melta gunners thats a different kettle of underpants!


SERPENTE A LA PORPE 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




England

I would make a number of AP4 weapons AP5 to increase survivability of other armies elite units.
Not a direct redress of the marine problem but it would help accross the board, i think.

Darkchild

Death is the only alternative 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

The main thing, in my opinion, is the imbalance of available AP weapons.

There is a serious lack of AP3 weapons, compared to AP4 and effective AP2 (considering that against infantry, AP1 is effectively AP2, as are power weapons et al in close combat).

What you end up with is 3+ saves that are vastly superior to 4+ due to the huge gulf in weaponry between AP4 and AP3, and then underpriced with relation to AP2 due to the fact that, by and large, the weapons you use to crack 3+ saves are the same weapons you use to crack 2+ saves.

I agree that power armor, in general, is undercosted, but it's more a result of weapon design patterns than anything else -- the costs look a lot more reasonable if you assume that a 3+ model will get its save about as often as a 4+ model will, which just doesn't mesh with the reality of the game.

How many S5 or higher guns exist (outside of Tyranids) that are not at least AP4? -- at least, those that aren't standard weapons for squad types (e.g., Pulse Rifles and Burst Cannons).

Instead of recosting power armor, changing out weapons may end up a better solution...

Make Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers AP5.
Make Autocannons and plasma in general AP3.
Redo the Assault Cannon again, fire whoever set it up the way it is now, and publically apologize for it.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




You'd still need to add AP2 guns in there, since then you would see 2+ saves be gods. I'd leave the heavy flamer AP4, since, well, it isn't exactly that far ranging.

The autocannons I could see getting the boost and then suddenly it would be a good choice for guard and chaos. The fact that they wouldn't let any Tau unit besides a heavy (rail rifle), or the Vespids (fragile unit) in the Tau arsenal speaks volumes of how little GW wants marines to have to fear someone shooting through their armor.

I do agree about most of the points of the post if not almost all of them. Especially firing whoever made the assault cannon rending.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




NJ

Where's the dead horse..... Oh, here it is, let's beat it some more. Blah blah blah, marines are good, and no matter how much we complain GW is not going to change that right now. I just wish, they'd promote other armies as hard as marines so we see a more mixed enviroment.


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I have never understood why eveyone thinks that rending assault cannons = cheese. Face it the 3rd edition assault cannon sucked, so for 4th edition they buffed it up a bit. I dont know about the rest of you but I'm lucky to get 1 or 2 rending shots in 6 turns from 2 assault cannons!

As for fixing marines, well:
-Stopping min/ max squads with special/ heavy weapon sounds like a good idea (return to the combat squad sysytem?) but then again you would also have to change Chaos marine squads too.

-Increasing points cost of marines to an acceptable level would be helpful, but again this would lead to changes for Marines, Chaos, Grey knights, Sisters of Battle & Necrons?

-Dropping ATSKNF would I think really help balance marines. Chaos dont get it, or any other race so why should marines? It would also encoruage players to be more aware of the use of moral in the game as every other race has to factor in falling back, regrouping etc into their tactics. A marine squad falls back- so what? Automatic regroup!

-Would love to see a return of the armour save modifier but alas GW has already expressed its thoughts on the subject
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

I have never understood why eveyone thinks that rending assault cannons = cheese. Face it the 3rd edition assault cannon sucked, so for 4th edition they buffed it up a bit. I dont know about the rest of you but I'm lucky to get 1 or 2 rending shots in 6 turns from 2 assault cannons!

Because the gun is, quite literally, too good at everything. It's better than a Twin-Linked Lascannon against AV14, for Christ's Sake -- and then, simultaneously, it's better than a Heavy Bolter against infantry.

For reference, there's plenty of complaining about Obliterators -- and I dislike their weapon choices for similar reasons, regardless of the fact that I do play Chaos -- and from 12-24", an Assault Cannon is a better option than anything an Obliterator can muster up against any target.

The problem isn't so much that it's good against specific targets, but it's very good against anything.

Note, however, that there's a distinction between something being "cheese" and being "significantly overpowered". Assault Cannons are the latter; I don't subscribe to the former existing.

Disclosure: I just assembled three of them this weekend for my Space Wolves.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

2nd Ed. assault cannons were godlike; up to 9 shots, str. 8, d10 wounds; it was approximately the same as a krak missile against vehicles. In response, they toned it down for 3rd, maiking it the gimp-gun. 4th has swung it back the other way. I just wish it'd settle on a reasonable balance.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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