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I'm not seen this mentioned before as its own separate topic. But what do people think about reducing the flattening of the point system by doubling the points of everything in the game including match size. then taking a crack at trying to balance, it's almost like giving things half points as they are right now.

So for example you would play a 4000 point game but Guardsman would be 8 points a piece. And then GW has the option to tweek points in a much finer scale. As they are now maybe Guardsmen are too cheap at 4 but maybe too expensive at 5. but with this proposed change that could go with 9 a nice happy medium.

I like it. They should have done that at the start of 8th, just as they halved all points at the start of 3rd.

There is no way around it if they want to achieve a somewhat balanced game.

Wouldn't it just be easier to add a zero to all exsisting points?
Also you know all that would happen is GW's will just creep pointa back down anyway.

It's too big a change for a CA etc so it would only happen with 9th edition. Even if they did double points, they would be 8 in the index then probably 6 in the Codex.

Put the points back to somewhere close to 2nd ed. levels, and then balance from there. Would mean a small mindset change in players to play 4000 point armies instead of 2K - but its not like some of us back then weren't playing 4K anyway to have larger games (that also lasted an entire weekend!).

Larger values gives more wiggle room for changes, though it might mean more involvement in list building, but that's something that most of us have a fair amount of time to do anyway.

Yeah, tis not a bad idea. Makes the math slightly harder, but for the balance value that can be gained... Worth it.

Much better than saying "IG are 4.7pp, Conscripts are 4.2ppm"

Ice_can wrote:
Wouldn't it just be easier to add a zero to all exsisting points?
Also you know all that would happen is GW's will just creep pointa back down anyway.

It's too big a change for a CA etc so it would only happen with 9th edition. Even if they did double points, they would be 8 in the index then probably 6 in the Codex.

But doesn't the AoS generals handbook redo all the points every year in that book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, tis not a bad idea. Makes the math slightly harder, but for the balance value that can be gained... Worth it.

Well if GW gets their list builder app done it'll be easier too

This suggestion is fine if we really feel there's a need to adjust the cost of lot of more units more granularly. However, the issues I usually see with 40k aren't usually of the, "This unit is 1.5 points too cheap" variety. Additionally, I feel we'd generally be splitting hairs arguing over whether a model's current price is 1.2 points too expensive or 1.7 points too expensive.

So basically, it's not a bad way to go if you really want to take the time to readjust points for a bunch of units by a tiny amount. I agree that adding a decimal place is probably easier than doubling the points, but you get similar results either way.

It reminds me of when I chuckled the tiny points change autarchs got from index to codex. "Oh thank goodness. The autarch costs 2(?) more points. Now the game is balanced!" Granted, adjusting options/units that are taken in large quantities is more meaningful.

You could just play 1000 point games.

...sorta missing the point of the idea there, but never mind!

You could just play 1000 point games.

I am not suggesting smaller games just finer points adjustment.

It reminds me of when I chuckled the tiny points change autarchs got from index to codex. "Oh thank goodness. The autarch costs 2(?) more points. Now the game is balanced!" Granted, adjusting options/units that are taken in large quantities is more meaningful.

I totally agree it's not going to be a game changer for single model units. This is more for units that make up the bulk of an army in sheer model count. Also I don't think decimal point values would be good. Then it can get messy looking.

You'd have better balance by moving to D12 rather than introducing "half points".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You'd have better balance by moving to D12 rather than introducing "half points".

Buying and rolling 40 D12's sound liken madesss!
I've heard can be rolling 100dice at a time, no one is gonna buy 100D12's.

 Blndmage wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You'd have better balance by moving to D12 rather than introducing "half points".

Buying and rolling 40 D12's sound liken madesss!
I've heard can be rolling 100dice at a time, no one is gonna buy 100D12's.

No-one is going to buy 100 D6s either. You batch roll them 10-20 at a time. FWIW the most dice you need to roll at once in current 40k (if I remember correctly, please let me know if I missed something) is 120, 30 Conscripts under FRFSRF (although if you require the use of new dice for "bonus" attacks, then MORDIAN Conscripts could theoretically require 600 dice).

Edit: 29 Ork Boyz and a Boss Nob all with Choppas would need 121 dice, but since the Nob is S5 he has to be rolled separately, can't be fast rolled with the boyz.

Double Edit: 29 Ork Boyz and a Boss Nob all with Choppas who charged and are within range of Ghazghull Thraka would need 145+6 dice.

Actually D12s are pretty cheap when you purchase them in bulk. But yes, rolling D12s and sorting would be a pain.

There really is no downside to this. It's too bad they didn't do this at the start of 8th.

jcd386 wrote:
There really is no downside to this. It's too bad they didn't do this at the start of 8th.

Considering GW didn't trust players to be able to count to 100, what makes you think they trust players to count to 4,000?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You'd have better balance by moving to D12 rather than introducing "half points".

Buying and rolling 40 D12's sound liken madesss!
I've heard can be rolling 100dice at a time, no one is gonna buy 100D12's.

No-one is going to buy 100 D6s either. You batch roll them 10-20 at a time. FWIW the most dice you need to roll at once in current 40k (if I remember correctly, please let me know if I missed something) is 120, 30 Conscripts under FRFSRF (although if you require the use of new dice for "bonus" attacks, then MORDIAN Conscripts could theoretically require 600 dice).

Edit: 29 Ork Boyz and a Boss Nob all with Choppas would need 121 dice, but since the Nob is S5 he has to be rolled separately, can't be fast rolled with the boyz.

Double Edit: 29 Ork Boyz and a Boss Nob all with Choppas who charged and are within range of Ghazghull Thraka would need 145+6 dice.

If you use the Mob Up stratagem, you could add 9 more Boyz and another Boss Nob. That gives you 190 +12.

Ork-en Man wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You'd have better balance by moving to D12 rather than introducing "half points".

Buying and rolling 40 D12's sound liken madesss!
I've heard can be rolling 100dice at a time, no one is gonna buy 100D12's.

No-one is going to buy 100 D6s either. You batch roll them 10-20 at a time. FWIW the most dice you need to roll at once in current 40k (if I remember correctly, please let me know if I missed something) is 120, 30 Conscripts under FRFSRF (although if you require the use of new dice for "bonus" attacks, then MORDIAN Conscripts could theoretically require 600 dice).

Edit: 29 Ork Boyz and a Boss Nob all with Choppas would need 121 dice, but since the Nob is S5 he has to be rolled separately, can't be fast rolled with the boyz.

Double Edit: 29 Ork Boyz and a Boss Nob all with Choppas who charged and are within range of Ghazghull Thraka would need 145+6 dice.

If you use the Mob Up stratagem, you could add 9 more Boyz and another Boss Nob. That gives you 190 +12.

And if you have a Weirdboy cast Warpath on them, that's a final tally of 228+14.

So, yeah, you theoretically need 228 dice to play 40k, but in 99.9999999% of games you won't need more than 20 to have a functional game.

Playing Necrons, I routinely need 36 for a full swarm of Scarabs attacking in CC. Even a full 20 warrior squad is 20-40 for shooting, based on how many are in rapid fire rage.

The problems with dice acquisition and rolling large amount is why I decide not to go with D12 but rather try the points. And if you're already counting up to 2000 is 4000 really that much harder.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No-one is going to buy 100 D6s either.

Why not? Its like $9(US) on amazon for a pack of 100 D6... that's nothing compared to buying miniatures!

Because in my experience no-one is going to actually roll a bucket of D6s like that. It takes too long to pick out the misses and introduces too many incidents of "accidental" missing one or two fails. Better for both players to batch roll 10-15 at a time.

Doing 20-50 happens fairly frequently, though. And I don't want to get that many D[N]s (where N is not 6).

If you’re rolling that many dice, it’s time to invest in an app.

 Stormonu wrote:
If you’re rolling that many dice, it’s time to invest in an app.

No one in my area trusts dice apps.
You also lose so much of the tension too!

It's more fun to see dice. I don't care if it takes longer.

Bharring wrote:
It's more fun to see dice. I don't care if it takes longer.

I 100% agree with you.
Take the time and play the game, no need to rush rush rush, actually enjoy the models on the table, watching the story unfold, actually having a story, even if it's a quuickly made up one.

With owning both Imperial Guard and Tyranids I often roll 40+ dice. I have over a hundred d6s. And I find it's much harder to find big packs of D12. At least in store.