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Can my psychers attempt to deny enemy powers that are cast via soulburst?

I'm inclined to say no, as most rules for Deny state that you can deny in the enemy's Psychic Phase. Unless the Soulburst was in the Psychic Phase, you can't deny it.

3. Deny the Witch Tests
A psyker can attempt to resist a psychic
power that has been manifested by an
enemy model within 24" by taking a
Deny the Witch test – this takes place
immediately, even though it is not your
turn.

It doesnt say that you can only deny the witch in the psychic phase.

I'm more referring to the individual Psykers' entry, using the Librarian as an example, it states he can only deny it in the enemy psychic phase, and "Codex > Rulebook" could possibly come into play. I'm happy to accept it could be anytime, this was just my immediate thought on the issue.

True, it does say a psyker can only deny in the enemys psychic phase on the datasheet.

Where is the soul burst rule located? I'd like to see the full wording of this ability.

Index: Xenos 1

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-ynnari/

"The unit can, if it is a PSYKER, immediately attempt to manifest a single psychic power as if it were the psychic phase".

The wording "as if" means all rules of that phase apply. So, yes, it can be denied by an enemy psyker.

This is not from the ynnari codex, its from the index, so i may be wrong, if the rule has changed.

 p5freak wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-ynnari/

"The unit can, if it is a PSYKER, immediately attempt to manifest a single psychic power as if it were the psychic phase".

The wording "as if" means all rules of that phase apply. So, yes, it can be denied by an enemy psyker.

This is not from the ynnari codex, its from the index, so i may be wrong, if the rule has changed.

That says the pysker treats it as if it were the psychic phase; it doesn't say that anybody trying to Deny the Witch treats it as the enemy psyker's psychic phase.

One other option with Soulburst is to let the unit fight as if it's the fight phase. That doesn't mean that the unit it's fighting also treats it as the fight phase and gets to also fight during that Soulburst.

 doctortom wrote:

That says the pysker treats it as if it were the psychic phase; it doesn't say that anybody trying to Deny the Witch treats it as the enemy psyker's psychic phase.

The psyker who can perform a psychic power is an enemy unit. Therefore its the enemys psychic phase. Thus i can deny with my psyker.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

That says the pysker treats it as if it were the psychic phase; it doesn't say that anybody trying to Deny the Witch treats it as the enemy psyker's psychic phase.

The psyker who can perform a psychic power is an enemy unit. Therefore its the enemys psychic phase. Thus i can deny with my psyker.

So if he had been treating it as his fight phase, you'd say you get to also fight because it's his fight phase?

It's the enemy's psychic phase for the enemy. It's not the enemy's psychic phase for the unit trying to Deny the Witch.

 doctortom wrote:

So if he had been treating it as his fight phase, you'd say you get to also fight because it's his fight phase?

If the rule says something like fight as if its his own fight phase, then yes, i also get to fight.

 doctortom wrote:

It's the enemy's psychic phase for the enemy. It's not the enemy's psychic phase for the unit trying to Deny the Witch.

Doesnt matter. My psyker can deny in the enemys psychic phase.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

So if he had been treating it as his fight phase, you'd say you get to also fight because it's his fight phase?

If the rule says something like fight as if its his own fight phase, then yes, i also get to fight.

While there are some genuine issues with 'as if' it was another phase rules, this is 100% false.

Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

So if he had been treating it as his fight phase, you'd say you get to also fight because it's his fight phase?

If the rule says something like fight as if its his own fight phase, then yes, i also get to fight.

While there are some genuine issues with 'as if' it was another phase rules, this is 100% false.

How would you resolve a Charge declared from Soulburst that's not in the Charge Phase? Do you get to Overwatch? The rules are that "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase)" emphasis mine.

Presume this means a Charge declared in any other phase can't be Overwatched on the same basis that Psyhic tests cant be denied?

Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

So if he had been treating it as his fight phase, you'd say you get to also fight because it's his fight phase?

If the rule says something like fight as if its his own fight phase, then yes, i also get to fight.

While there are some genuine issues with 'as if' it was another phase rules, this is 100% false.

Do you have any rule, FAQ, errata citation to back this up ? I cited the relevant rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

shakul wrote:

How would you resolve a Charge declared from Soulburst that's not in the Charge Phase? Do you get to Overwatch ?

If you would have read the strength from death rule you wouldnt have asked this question Because its answered there. Please read the rule next time, i already posted a link to it in this thread.

And you know what the sad thing is? All they had to do was add a single rule to the rulebook to avoid all this drama.

"As if" effects
If a special rule grants an effect that calls for actions to be treated "as if" it were a phase, then all rules that reference a phase work as though it was the phase in question, even if it is not currently the phase.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
If you would have read the strength from death rule you wouldnt have asked this question Because its answered there. Please read the rule next time, i already posted a link to it in this thread.

SfD says "enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal." That's the rub, because the rules for Overwatch only give you permission to shoot in the Charge Phase, so "as normal" means you can only fire in the Charge Phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
If you would have read the strength from death rule you wouldnt have asked this question Because its answered there. Please read the rule next time, i already posted a link to it in this thread.

SfD says "enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal." That's the rub, because the rules for Overwatch only give you permission to shoot in the Charge Phase, so "as normal" means you can only fire in the Charge Phase.

SfD says "The unit can charge as if it were the charge phase,....." which means all rules of the charge phase apply. Which means i can overwatch AS NORMAL. The rule explicitly says this.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
If you would have read the strength from death rule you wouldnt have asked this question Because its answered there. Please read the rule next time, i already posted a link to it in this thread.

SfD says "enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal." That's the rub, because the rules for Overwatch only give you permission to shoot in the Charge Phase, so "as normal" means you can only fire in the Charge Phase.

SfD says "The unit can charge as if it were the charge phase,....." which means all rules of the charge phase apply. Which means i can overwatch AS NORMAL. The rule explicitly says this.

"As if" does not mean "is". The rule for Overwatch only works when it's the actual charge phase, acting "as if" isn't enough.

Again, this is the same argument that's been re-hashed a thousand times over, with no new information to resolve it.

 p5freak wrote:

Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

So if he had been treating it as his fight phase, you'd say you get to also fight because it's his fight phase?

If the rule says something like fight as if its his own fight phase, then yes, i also get to fight.

While there are some genuine issues with 'as if' it was another phase rules, this is 100% false.

Do you have any rule, FAQ, errata citation to back this up ? I cited the relevant rules.

You know for a fact there is no clear ruling on 'as if' in general. You have not cited a rule that says if you Fight as if it's the Fight Phase then other units can Fight either, so that's a false equivalence.

However, I can say with absolute certainty that if my Space Marine Captain is killed in the Shooting Phase and I use Only In Death Does Duty End to Fight with him as if it's Fight Phase then you DO NOT get to Fight Back.

Fighting as if it’s the Fight Phase in no way says “do the whole Fight Phase for both sides”. It’s silly to try and claim that.

A Psychic Test does include the possibility of a denial though, so I don’t see why you couldn’t attempt to deny a Soulbursted power.

Stux wrote:

You know for a fact there is no clear ruling on 'as if' in general.

Once again, read the rules updates/faq/errata From the BRB update 1.2.

Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character,
can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest
enemy unit?
A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that
allows them to target a Character even if it is not the
closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the
Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the
Shooting phase still apply.

Ok, this is not a 100% clarification what "as if" means, and its not for all phases, but its close enough for me. All the normal restrictions of the Shooting phase still apply means you have to follow the rules of the shooting phase. Thus, "as if" means all normal rules of the phase apply.

Where is your rule citation about me being 100% false ?

Stux wrote:

However, I can say with absolute certainty that if my Space Marine Captain is killed in the Shooting Phase and I use Only In Death Does Duty End to Fight with him as if it's Fight Phase then you DO NOT get to Fight Back.

You can fight back, but its useless because he is already dead.

 p5freak wrote:

Stux wrote:

You know for a fact there is no clear ruling on 'as if' in general.

Once again, read the rules updates/faq/errata From the BRB update 1.2.

Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character,
can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest
enemy unit?
A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that
allows them to target a Character even if it is not the
closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the
Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the
Shooting phase still apply.

Ok, this is not a 100% clarification what "as if" means, and its not for all phases, but its close enough for me. All the normal restrictions of the Shooting phase still apply means you have to follow the rules of the shooting phase. Thus, "as if" means all normal rules of the phase apply.

Where is your rule citation about me being 100% false ?

Stux wrote:

However, I can say with absolute certainty that if my Space Marine Captain is killed in the Shooting Phase and I use Only In Death Does Duty End to Fight with him as if it's Fight Phase then you DO NOT get to Fight Back.

You can fight back, but its useless because he is already dead.

If what you are claiming is true, why would it only apply to the model who happens to be within 1" of the Captain? Why can't everyone in 1" all over the table Fight? Feels like an arbitrary distinction with no basis in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, here's my rules citation then:

"That model can immediately ... Fight as if it were his Fight Phase"

It's restricted to the model, no one else can Fight.

The whole point is that the way this rule is written for the Fight Phase there is no ambiguity. Denying is ambiguous because the restriction on the ability is on who can manifest a power in the 'as if' Psychic phase, and we aren't given information about the scope aside from that.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Fighting as if it’s the Fight Phase in no way says “do the whole Fight Phase for both sides”. It’s silly to try and claim that.

A Psychic Test does include the possibility of a denial though, so I don’t see why you couldn’t attempt to deny a Soulbursted power.

I feel like this is the right answer.
Fighting "as if" it were your fight phase only includes the steps for YOU to fight, not the opponent
Casting a Psychic power "as if" it were your phase DOES include steps for the opponent to deny. It's step 3 and required before you can manifest the power

Completing the steps in the fight phase does not include a step in which the opponent chooses. a unit to fight. You take it in turns for that, but a single unit can complete all the steps without the opponent rolling anything but saving throws.
Completing a Psychic phase REQUIRES opponent interaction.

-

 Galef wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Fighting as if it’s the Fight Phase in no way says “do the whole Fight Phase for both sides”. It’s silly to try and claim that.

A Psychic Test does include the possibility of a denial though, so I don’t see why you couldn’t attempt to deny a Soulbursted power.

I feel like this is the right answer.
Fighting "as if" it were your fight phase only includes the steps for YOU to fight, not the opponent
Casting a Psychic power "as if" it were your phase DOES include steps for the opponent to deny.

-

<Tinfoil Hat>But the opponents models don't get to act "as if" it were the Psychic Phase, so therefore they don't have permission to try to deny because they aren't in the magical psudo-bubble of psychicness</Tinfoil Hat>

In short, you have to decide which values you assign "truth" for the game and move on. Until GW decide to errata or Special Snowflake the issue, both answers are true for specific values of true.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Fighting as if it’s the Fight Phase in no way says “do the whole Fight Phase for both sides”. It’s silly to try and claim that.

A Psychic Test does include the possibility of a denial though, so I don’t see why you couldn’t attempt to deny a Soulbursted power.

I feel like this is the right answer.
Fighting "as if" it were your fight phase only includes the steps for YOU to fight, not the opponent
Casting a Psychic power "as if" it were your phase DOES include steps for the opponent to deny.

-

<Tinfoil Hat>But the opponents models don't get to act "as if" it were the Psychic Phase, so therefore they don't have permission to try to deny because they aren't in the magical psudo-bubble of psychicness</Tinfoil Hat>

In short, you have to decide which values you assign "truth" for the game and move on. Until GW decide to errata or Special Snowflake the issue, both answers are true for specific values of true.

I was editing my post before seeing your response.

Basically what I am getting at is that in either case, fighting or psychic, you resolve the steps in the phase, as if it were the phase.
A unit able to fight outside the phase doesn't require opponent interaction (aside from saving throws) to complete the steps to resolve the fight
A unit casting a psychic power outside the phase DOES require step 3 of the phase (deny the witch test) in order to complete the steps to resolve the power
Without resolving all the steps, the power cannot resolve

-

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

So if he had been treating it as his fight phase, you'd say you get to also fight because it's his fight phase?

If the rule says something like fight as if its his own fight phase, then yes, i also get to fight..

It says he gets to fight as if it was his fight phase. It does not say your get to fight as if it is the fight phase. It is not a fight phase for everybody. Once again you are mistaken..

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It's the enemy's psychic phase for the enemy. It's not the enemy's psychic phase for the unit trying to Deny the Witch.

Doesnt matter. My psyker can deny in the enemys psychic phase.

It completely matters. Your psyker cannot deny a psychic power if your psyker is given permission to treat it as the enemy psychic phase. No such permission has been given, therefore you do not get to deny the witch.

 doctortom wrote:
Your psyker cannot deny a psychic power if your psyker is given permission to treat it as the enemy psychic phase. No such permission has been given, therefore you do not get to deny the witch.

Overall I agree with your logic, but as Deny the Witch is a step in the psychic phase for the psyker casting the power, I think it applies as a required step to resolve before the caster can resolve the power

-

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
If you would have read the strength from death rule you wouldnt have asked this question Because its answered there. Please read the rule next time, i already posted a link to it in this thread.

SfD says "enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal." That's the rub, because the rules for Overwatch only give you permission to shoot in the Charge Phase, so "as normal" means you can only fire in the Charge Phase.

SfD says "The unit can charge as if it were the charge phase,....." which means all rules of the charge phase apply. Which means i can overwatch AS NORMAL. The rule explicitly says this.

You keep missing the point. A unit being given permission to treat something as x phase does not give permission for other units to treat it as x phase. BCB is right; they needed to add the line about getting to fire overwatch because they wouldn't have been able to otherwise. You would need similar wording to say an enemy unit could use Deny the Witch in order for them to actually get to use it if they can only use it in an enemy psyker phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Your psyker cannot deny a psychic power if your psyker is given permission to treat it as the enemy psychic phase. No such permission has been given, therefore you do not get to deny the witch.

Overall I agree with your logic, but as Deny the Witch is a step in the psychic phase for the psyker casting the power, I think it applies as a required step to resolve before the caster can resolve the power

-

RAW they would have needed a statement saying that the enemy unit can attempt to Deny the Witch on the power cast due to Soulburst similar to how they explicitly said that a unit can Overwatch if the Soulburst is used as a charge phase. RAI, they might have been okay with people using Deny the Witch, but they didn't write the rule that way.

 doctortom wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Your psyker cannot deny a psychic power if your psyker is given permission to treat it as the enemy psychic phase. No such permission has been given, therefore you do not get to deny the witch.

Overall I agree with your logic, but as Deny the Witch is a step in the psychic phase for the psyker casting the power, I think it applies as a required step to resolve before the caster can resolve the power

-

RAW they would have needed a statement saying that the enemy unit can attempt to Deny the Witch on the power cast due to Soulburst similar to how they explicitly said that a unit can Overwatch if the Soulburst is used as a charge phase. RAI, they might have been okay with people using Deny the Witch, but they didn't write the rule that way.

But it isn't needed because in order to complete the steps to resolve a power, you must complete step 3, which is an opponent attempting DtW.
The rule allowing Overwatch seems redundant if it is part of the Charge phase. To Charge, you must resolve the steps, which includes Overwatch.
The Fight phase has no such step that allows the opponent to resolve their own fight phase. Steps 1-6 only involve the unit chosen to Fight.

So it should go like this:
Unit gains a Soulburst and choses to cast a power, that's step 1 of the "as if" psychic phase.
Step 2, Make the test
Step 3, Enemy takes DtW test (this is part of the UNIT's psychic phase, not the opponent's)
Step 4, Resolve the power.

How are you getting to step 4 without doing step 3?

-

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Your psyker cannot deny a psychic power if your psyker is given permission to treat it as the enemy psychic phase. No such permission has been given, therefore you do not get to deny the witch.

Overall I agree with your logic, but as Deny the Witch is a step in the psychic phase for the psyker casting the power, I think it applies as a required step to resolve before the caster can resolve the power

-

RAW they would have needed a statement saying that the enemy unit can attempt to Deny the Witch on the power cast due to Soulburst similar to how they explicitly said that a unit can Overwatch if the Soulburst is used as a charge phase. RAI, they might have been okay with people using Deny the Witch, but they didn't write the rule that way.

But it isn't needed because in order to complete the steps to resolve a power, you must complete step 3, which is an opponent attempting DtW.
The Fight phase has not such step that allows the opponent to resolve their own fight phase. Steps 1-6 only involve the unit chosen to Fight.

So it should go like this:
Unit gains a Soulburst and choses to cast a power, that's step 1 of the "as if" psychic phase.
Step 2, Make the test
Step 3, Enemy takes DtW test (this is part of the UNIT's psychic phase, not the opponent's)
Step 4, Resolve the power.

How are you getting to step 4 without doing step 3?

-

Step 3 you have to determine first if there are any enemy units eligible to DtW. In this case the unit is specifically allowed to DtW only in the enemy psychic phase, but has not been given specific permission to treat it as if it were the enemy's psychic phase (only the enemy unit who used the Soulburst has that permission). If there are no eligible units to DtW, then you would process step 3 the way you do normally for an army that doesn't have any psykers.