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It's rare you find a unit that is so insanely overcosted as this - I'd venture to say it is the most over costed unit in the game. It is the Centurion devastator and ofc it comes out of the beautiful codex space marines which is full of some real competition for the title. Honestly though - these guys make terminators and dreadnoughts seem like a bargain. That is some serious praise.

Okay lets start with a dreadnought base 70
Lets give the unit -2t -5 wounds -2 movement and -2 attacks -1S - but to compensate lets have them ignore movement penalties and give a 2+ save from a 3+. Less also charge 10 more points cause you know...we don't even have guns yet. Indeed this unit was actually raised 10 (i think it was 10 - coulda been 15) points from the index to the codex. Odd because it was already one of the most obviously over-costed units in the book.

So end result is after you arm the cents with 2x Las and Cent missle launcher you are sitting on a 155 point unit with 3 wounds t5 and a 2+ save. For 10 points less you can get a t7 8W 3+ save dread with basically the exact same load-out (the cent ML is just a ML d3 shots instead of 1 with -12 range and d3 damage instead of d6) realistically these weapons are equivalent just trading some range for target versatility.

Lets make that a little easier to see at a glance
8W T7 3+ save - 2 LC and a ML - 145
3W T5 2+ save - 2 LC and a ML - 155

What the actual F GW? Why does the Centuran cost 100% more than it should base!

I know there is no perfect example for what they should cost. In the range of 40-45 makes the most sense. compared to the field.
Obliterators 3w 2+ 5++save but only T4 (can deep strike). They have a a 30 point weapon (that is my estimate of what it is worth) So that puts oblits at a base 35 points
Crisis suits 3W T5 3+ save (can deep strike) fly key word but only bs 4+ = 42 points base (honestly this is very overcosted probably by 10 points) Ill split the difference though 37 points
Wraith gaurd 3W T6 3+ save (can fall back and shoot) base = 23 points

Off the top of my head these are the most comparable units and their base costs. You'll notice that all these units have some sort of special rule - they all also use assault weapons so they basically have a better version of the centurion move and shoot rule. Centurians also ignore cover - but most of these units can deep strike (actually they all can) The only way cents can deep strike is with a over costed drop pod.

In any case. The base profile for the Cent is probably still the best out of all these 3. T5 and 2+ save is a nice profile. In terms of cost though - this is maybe a 5 point upgrade. Using the Obliterator as a compactor - I'd say this would put Cents at a base of 40 being totally fair. Making Cents 100% overcosted base. Holy crap GW.

This would be 40 points off the price tag of a 2LC ML dev. Bringing it down to 115 points. This still feels a little high.
It would also bring the 2x HB and huriBolter loadout down to 66 points (which I think you would see a lot more off)
The GC ML build would be (93) This seems high too.

I think it's clear some space marine weapons costs to much too. LC shouldn't be 25 when a blaster is 17. ML shouldn't be 25 ether. Both these weapons should probably drop to 20 points across the board. Grav cannons should probably drop to 15 - being the imperial star cannon/dessie cannon equivalent (these also cost 15) I'll be fair and say it should cost 20.

So this would Bring the 2x LC ML down to 100 points
and the GC ML down to 83 points.

These are perfectly fair prices.

Discuss - debate - whatever. This base cost is a travesty. It's actually worthy of a hotfix.

Once again we have a unit paying for its sins because of a previous edition.

It's terrible. I don't think you'll get much argument about this one.

That's bad yes. Imperial titans could give run for money though. They are so bad opponent doesn't even need to waste time shooting at them and still win.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again we have a unit paying for its sins because of a previous edition.

Is it possible this was just a typo from index to codex transition? I can't think of any rational reason why anyone would raise their cost from the index. Do you happen to know their index cost? I don't have my index anymore.

"You bought the new shiny in time for the new edition?"
"Now, in 8th, you can use that same shiny for twice the price."

If Primaris, being the next new thing, get the same price-rise treatment, there'll be all hell to pay.
I got Centurions in 7th, and they went well with my Sternguard.
Both have been shafted this time around.

tneva82 wrote:
That's bad yes. Imperial titans could give run for money though. They are so bad opponent doesn't even need to waste time shooting at them and still win.

Well - FW is another bag of tricks honestly. They doubled the cost of a lot of units just so you couldn't bring them to a standard game. They really shouldn't be discussed when talking about "the game". Point is correct though. A lot of FW titans are probably worse costed than centurions.

I don't know if these models could ever be anything but massively overcosted or undercosted. They are almost all glass cannon punch - meaning that they either deal waay out of their weight class or whiff horribly and drag your game down with their untimely demise.

What they should have done was never release the model in the first place - they were already pushing the mechanics with the various blends of 'special' terminators (looking at you blightlords) and dialing things to 11 again was destined to bring angst no matter the point cost.

 Skinnereal wrote:
"You bought the new shiny in time for the new edition?"
"Now, in 8th, you can use that same shiny for twice the price."

If Primaris, being the next new thing, get the same price-rise treatment, there'll be all hell to pay.
I got Centurions in 7th, and they went well with my Sternguard.
Both have been shafted this time around.

Haha - I actually did this. It was my first purchase after not playing from 7th to 8th - a box of cents. I always wanted to put 6LC cents in a godhammer landraider and pump out death lasers that actaully killed things (always loved las cannons but they were junk in 7th) In 8th when I saw the profile for the las cannon I was like. OH man! Time for LC party...then I saw the index...then I saw the codex..I nearly cried.


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 ChargerIIC wrote:
I don't know if these models could ever be anything but massively overcosted or undercosted. They are almost all glass cannon punch - meaning that they either deal waay out of their weight class or whiff horribly and drag your game down with their untimely demise.

What they should have done was never release the model in the first place - they were already pushing the mechanics with the various blends of 'special' terminators (looking at you blightlords) and dialing things to 11 again was destined to bring angst no matter the point cost.

They could have been more like killa cans or broadsides. I see what you are saying because terms basically got shafted by cents in 7th. They could have resigned them to something more like a mini dread (which is still glass cannon like - but thats fine - this is a space marine army) More glass cannons for the glass cannons!

I disagree though - there is a price point/ stat adjustment that can make any unit work. I agree that the cent is currently too far on the glass side though. It should have more wounds to balance out the 3 heavies.

The Monolith is pretty poorly priced, considering how iconic it is.

For the price they're at, Centurion variants really should have 4 wounds. Would help make them the supposed wall they should be.

Even then, the Devastators are absurdly costed. At MOST they should've only been 10 points more expensive base than the Assault ones, who aren't exactly good but are sorta useable. Once again it's only because of the Raven Guard stratetem but still.

"Let's talk about the most over costed unit in the game"
Ok.

" - Centurion devs!"
Up there, but no.

They are super overcosted. However, before we go crazy, lets look at what they are:
80ppm platforms that take 3 Heavy weapons.
S/T5 W3 2+
Ignores Cover (but not LOS)
No movement penalty.

Lets compare then to Devs:
Devs: 65 pt base for 5 S/T4 3+ saves, 5 independant W, 4 Heavy choices, and a Sarge.
-Dev Cent is a bit less durable - 3W but a 2+, and T5.
-Dev Cent has 75% the Heavy weapons and less small arms, but Ignores Cover/no movement penalty help it. So it's worse, but only by 15-20% once you factor those in.

Yes, overcosted. But not double. The chasis does several nice things. Not worth 70, but is worth something.

Other units to compare them to?
Crisis?
Remember that they're WS/BS4+, and a 3+ SV. WS/BS 3+ and a 2+ SV definitely puts them well above Crisis. Then Crisis have Fly, but also almost all their weapons are super short range. Devs have much longer range, and can move + shoot Heavies with no penalty. So, compared to Crisis, we're looking at the 45-65 range.
Wraithguard? They share an approximate baseline stat range (+1T but -1Sv). But Wraithguard have 8", 12", or melee as their range options. That's it. That makes them more akin to Assault Cents than Dev Cents.

I really don't get how you think T5 2+ is really only worth 5 points on a 3W heavy dakka weapon. Consider this - are 3 Missile Launcher Deathguard really only worth less than 2ppm more than 3 Missile Launcher Marines?

" but most of these units can deep strike (actually they all can)"
Wraithguard can deepstrike the same way Cents can - if you buy something for them. Cents pay tons of points for it where WG pay little (CP and opportunity), but they both have that option.

Cents, stock, at 40ppm? So a hurricane bolter and two HB on an ignores-cover ignores-movement-penalties T5 3W 2+ platform for 70 points? That sounds waaay too cheap.

As for weapons - one problem is what you're balancing against. a 20pt LC might seem fair, but remember there are inferior weapons that cost 20pt. How can the LC cost no more than a Brightlance?

GravCannon at 15? Because we want Dissies +2 everywhere, right?
GC compared to the StarCannon:
Heavy 4 vs Heavy 2, S5 vs S6, D:d3 vs 3+ models vs D:d3
Twice the shots with one less S and half the D vs 4+ or worse models (mostly 1-W models).
How the feth is that fair? I want to see the GC come down, but not to 15 points. It's almost like you want Marines to get mowed down by Dissies and equivelants.

The imperial Plas is the Plasma Cannon. D3 shots, but S8 D:2 vs S6 D:d3 with gets hot. Or S7 D1 without gets hot.

I'd agree on the IoM ML going down.

"LC shouldn't be 25 when a blaster is 17"
"Brightlance shouldn't be 20 when a Melta Gun is 17" Isn't that equally rediculous? LC is a Bright/Darklance, not a Blaster. Blaster is more in line with MeltaGun or PlasmaGun.

I don't think Devs should be over 70ppm base or under 50ppm from the analysis so far. Some weapons points changes could be done, but not as much as was suggested.

Actually they're not 70 points they're 85 I think.

80, I thought. It was a typo. 110 with 30pts worth of weapons.

Bharring wrote:
80, I thought. It was a typo. 110 with 30pts worth of weapons.

Which comes in a minimum of 3 man squads.

So are Crisis Suits actually more overcosted than Centurion Devastators? No.

Are Crisis Suits overcosted? Absolutely.

I'd love for them to get a price adjustment in the CA for the end of the year.

Something small to just move them a little and see what people think. Like 10 points a model, and then consider another 10 points a model if they still sit the shelves.

Not sure where I said Crisis Suits are more overcosted than Dev Cents. I certainly don't believe that.

Yeah they are 80 points.

Bharring - Str 9 ap-3 vs str 8 ap-4 is equal in just about every situation mathmatically except in sitatuions where there is and invo save or t8 or 9.

Dark lances are better against Rhinos
Lascannons are better against lemon russ.

The weapons should have an equal cost IMO.

Also - why would 70 points for 2 HB and a huri bolter be too much? They move 4" the huri bolters are never getting rapid fire with that kind of movement.

2 Agressors is about the same cost and they have basically the same defensive profile with a 3+ save but get an additional wound. They also get 4 power fist attacks.

19 shots compared to 18 shots if the cents have rapid fire (which they probably wont)

Except the agressors are shooting twice if they didn't move so 38 shots compared to 18.

These are perfectly reasonable costs.




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Bharring wrote:
Not sure where I said Crisis Suits are more overcosted than Dev Cents. I certainly don't believe that.

Well I am glad I didn't slam you for it - because I was about to. Yeah they are overcosted but more like 50% base overcosted - not 100% like the cents.


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Reemule wrote:
I'd love for them to get a price adjustment in the CA for the end of the year.

Something small to just move them a little and see what people think. Like 10 points a model, and then consider another 10 points a model if they still sit the shelves.

It's not enough - They were like that in the index - in fact I think they were 65 in the index - laughably overcosted at that price. They need to drop 30-40 points.

GW have deliberately done this to Centurions so nobody will play or buy them and they can be removed from the collective gaming consciousness, thereby preventing eye-nausea and involuntary bouts of disbelieving laughter at their sheer ridiculousness.

S9 AP-3 R:48" vs S8 AP-4 R:36" is not very equal at all. Especially when they're both Heavy, the LC is predominantly on stationary models, and the Brightlance is predominantly on mobile models.

Brightlance is worse vs Rhinos due to range.
LC is better vs Lemon Russes due to S9 *and* range.

The weapons should not cost the same. 36" vs 48" is a big deal.

"Also - why would 70 points for 2 HB and a huri bolter be too much?"
That's the firepower of an 8man Dev squad with 2 HB. Sure, they're overcosted, but that 8man squad is 124 points. 70 points is way too low.

"They move 4" the huri bolters are never getting rapid fire with that kind of movement."
Assuming you're hoofing it towards the opponent, sure. But that's a terrible assumption. Is there never a reason a GEQ or MEQ might possibly need to come within 28" of your deployment zone? The HB isn't going to reach deep into the opponent's backfield (unless you pod or something), sure. But it's got good coverage within your deployment zone. And most of it's favorite targets need to get within 28" of your stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xeno,
Why were you "about to slam" me about something I never said? A position I've never supported? Are you really so ready to throw around strawmen?

Banville wrote:
GW have deliberately done this to Centurions so nobody will play or buy them and they can be removed from the collective gaming consciousness, thereby preventing eye-nausea and involuntary bouts of disbelieving laughter at their sheer ridiculousness.

I've never understood the hatred of their look. It's like 40k meets exo-squad. Giant suits with lots of guns...This is not something I would expect complaints from. Really I think it's butt hurtness mostly. Ether from space marine players that are sad terminators suck - or people who got ruined by cent stars in 7th.

Fun fact:
War Walker: 50ppm base
Twice the W, +1 T, 4+/5++ instead of a 2+
Two Heavies, instead of Cents' 3 Heavies

So we've got something a bit more durable, more manueverable, but with 2/3 of the firepower options, at 50ppm. That shows an 80ppm base is way too high.

However, compare that model with 2x SC vs the 70ppm Hurricane/2HB model: same points, more durable and maneuverable, but substantially less firepower. So 70ppm kitted seems too low.

Centurion Devastators are absolutely overcosted, because even if you ignore the cost of their stats and wargear - assuming that is justified - they can't ride in anything except a land raider. They move 4" a turn.

So, if you bring centurion devastators and their transport, you're looking at an investment of like 700 points for 4 models with no invulnerable saves.

I proposed in another thread - a long time ago - that the units able to ride in a drop pod should increase, and these should be one of those units. Also, with a decrease in price of a drop pod, these guys aren't flat terrible.

For instance, 3 Centurion Devastators in a drop pod counter dark reapers hard. I would also give these guys the ability to ignore negative to-hit modifiers. That further expands their use case. They could shoot down fliers like a boss.

So many people complained about Drop Pods last edition (lol noobs) that not only did we get a ridiculous price increase on them, BUT we can't throw anything in them BUT Power Armor infantry!

I'm not sure how badly Devs and LRs need an Invuln. Even consider a 5++: it only comes into play on AP-4 or better. Which is precisely the sorts of weapons that *should* be scary to those targets.

I'm not sure Dev Cents in pods do anything to Reapers that Tac Marines in pods don't already do. Yes, more firepower. But you're shooting Reapers - you shouldn't need more firepower.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not sure how badly Devs and LRs need an Invuln. Even consider a 5++: it only comes into play on AP-4 or better. Which is precisely the sorts of weapons that *should* be scary to those targets.

I'm not sure Dev Cents in pods do anything to Reapers that Tac Marines in pods don't already do. Yes, more firepower. But you're shooting Reapers - you shouldn't need more firepower.

Because boltguns are so good vs 2+ saves.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not sure how badly Devs and LRs need an Invuln. Even consider a 5++: it only comes into play on AP-4 or better. Which is precisely the sorts of weapons that *should* be scary to those targets.

I'm not sure Dev Cents in pods do anything to Reapers that Tac Marines in pods don't already do. Yes, more firepower. But you're shooting Reapers - you shouldn't need more firepower.

The game needs less invulnerable saves, and less units like hemlocks which have AP-4 guns.

I could see Dev Cents having the same rule as Reapers with regards to to-hit penalties: either Dev Cents always hit on 3s or Reapers only ignore the to-move penalty. I like the second one more, but either would be a good thing.

They're a heavy platform for the weapons. Them not suffering a movement penalty is fine enough for a bonus.

Bharring wrote:
S9 AP-3 R:48" vs S8 AP-4 R:36" is not very equal at all. Especially when they're both Heavy, the LC is predominantly on stationary models, and the Brightlance is predominantly on mobile models.

Brightlance is worse vs Rhinos due to range.
LC is better vs Lemon Russes due to S9 *and* range.

The weapons should not cost the same. 36" vs 48" is a big deal.

"Also - why would 70 points for 2 HB and a huri bolter be too much?"
That's the firepower of an 8man Dev squad with 2 HB. Sure, they're overcosted, but that 8man squad is 124 points. 70 points is way too low.

"They move 4" the huri bolters are never getting rapid fire with that kind of movement."
Assuming you're hoofing it towards the opponent, sure. But that's a terrible assumption. Is there never a reason a GEQ or MEQ might possibly need to come within 28" of your deployment zone? The HB isn't going to reach deep into the opponent's backfield (unless you pod or something), sure. But it's got good coverage within your deployment zone. And most of it's favorite targets need to get within 28" of your stuff.


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Xeno,
Why were you "about to slam" me about something I never said? A position I've never supported? Are you really so ready to throw around strawmen?

36" range is more than enough to be in range turn 1 of your desired target and not move to shoot it. You can take them on crimson hunters with bs2+ so they hit on 3's and they still cost 20 points. Like I said there are some situations were ether weapon is the better choice - those situations being roughly equal. The cost should be equivalent.

In your dev to cents comparison - it's like you are ignoring the 8 single wounds compared to 3 like they don't matter at all. Also ignoring the fact you could just take a 5 man dev with 4 HB and a cherub for less points than the trash 8 man dev and have more firepower than the cent dev. 5 HB compared to 2 and 6 bolters. Devs areb't great ether. Every unit in power armor is overcosted by 3 points or so in the marine codex.

So in a perfect world the 4 HB dev unit would cost 87 with a cherub compared to the cent dev at 68 points. Seems reasonable to me.