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My arguemebt is that at 8-9 points with the jump pack they’d be comparable in cost to scions, which they are worse than in every way. Their ability to tie down things in CC is rather pointless when scions will delete a unit instead of making a charge 50~% of the time with a reroll. Also, without their jump packs they literally cannot do anything useful. A guardsmen has better killing power when buffed with orders, and a better gun. Compare an assault marine to a fire warrior. A fire warrior has a vastly better gun and more synergy, and honestly is comparable in CC because they’re both useless in CC.

Convince me that they’re not a 5-6 point model that’s just overpriced.

That's what they're REALLY worth, but no one will admit it.

While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

So what are you going to to do with all the things that cost that much already? We getting 0.3333333333334pt models now?

I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyy are worse than units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

I'm fairly sure this thread is a troll attempt.

A good one. I'm betting 10 pages.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

Well, I'd be fine paying 10ppm for them, if they had 2W like they should.

They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

Bharring wrote:
Well, I'd be fine paying 10ppm for them, if they had 2W like they should.

This was the most disappointing thing for all Marines, in my opinion.

Every non-Scout should be 2W, Primaris+Terminators 3-4W and soforth.

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyre worse units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

Just because someone else’s car is on fire doesn’t mean my flat tire isn’t a problem.

Also, I play grey Knights and I think assault marines are worse than anything in my Codex. Assault marines literally are useless that you pay points for.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

I was assuming you were talking 5-6 points with the jump pack thus the bit about greater mobility. Yes I am aware that a guardsmen with orders will still be far faster, but that is with orders from another unit and when the guardsmen does that he cannot fire unless he is tallarn which is not Catachan or Cadian thus outside of a super heavy going all sneaky beaky like is an inferior regiment. Even on foot at 5-6 points they would still massively out perform every other option in that price range. They'd out melee orks, endure tau/guardsmen fire and then when they get in melee they will grind the other one down. They'd trade cost effectively with just about everything at that price range.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

They are worse than tactical in every area but mobility - mobility means donkey balls when you have 2 str 4 attacks. You are out damaged by 4 and 6 point models at that point. ASM are worth 9 points - tacticals 10. Done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, I'd be fine paying 10ppm for them, if they had 2W like they should.

This was the most disappointing thing for all Marines, in my opinion.

Every non-Scout should be 2W, Primaris+Terminators 3-4W and soforth.

Totally agree - then they would be worth the points we are paying.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

They are worse than tactical in every area but mobility - mobility means donkey balls when you have 2 str 4 attacks. You are out damaged by 4 and 6 point models at that point. ASM are worth 9 points - tacticals 10. Done.

Considering I value them at 10 or 11 points (with jump pack) we are not really disagreeing at all. Mobility always matters because it is what allows you to get to where you need to be and fly helps with this a great deal by allowing you to ignore vertical distances and enemy models. Yes an assault marine would be out damaged by an ork boy with a choppa, but has a 3+ save instead of 6+. Offensive output is not everything. Durability matters and contrary to belief not every single weapon in the game is a disintegration cannon.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

I was assuming you were talking 5-6 points with the jump pack thus the bit about greater mobility. Yes I am aware that a guardsmen with orders will still be far faster, but that is with orders from another unit and when the guardsmen does that he cannot fire unless he is tallarn which is not Catachan or Cadian thus outside of a super heavy going all sneaky beaky like is an inferior regiment. Even on foot at 5-6 points they would still massively out perform every other option in that price range. They'd out melee orks, endure tau/guardsmen fire and then when they get in melee they will grind the other one down. They'd trade cost effectively with just about everything at that price range.

Why shouldn't an assault marine go toe to toe with orks?

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

That sounds better, but then you see Storm Boys are 8 points (pending codex adjustments). That 3+ save (ignoring the BS difference) is worth way more than 1 point

Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

Really good gak post OP. This is going places.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

I was assuming you were talking 5-6 points with the jump pack thus the bit about greater mobility. Yes I am aware that a guardsmen with orders will still be far faster, but that is with orders from another unit and when the guardsmen does that he cannot fire unless he is tallarn which is not Catachan or Cadian thus outside of a super heavy going all sneaky beaky like is an inferior regiment. Even on foot at 5-6 points they would still massively out perform every other option in that price range. They'd out melee orks, endure tau/guardsmen fire and then when they get in melee they will grind the other one down. They'd trade cost effectively with just about everything at that price range.

Why shouldn't an assault marine go toe to toe with orks?

They should go toe to toe with Orks, but through quality versus quantity. A space marine should never be as a cheap as a standard ork boy. I understand the fluff and lore are seperate, but there is such a thing as taking it to the extreme when a space marine at 5 points is worth LESS than a mass produced ork boy. At 10 points an assault marine would be far more mobile being able to pick and choose their fights and trade to an ok level against ork boys due to their far superior save.

On a more serious note, I could see 11ppm tacs and 10 or 11ppm ASM pre-jetpack. 2ppm for jetpacks, probably. Would that actually put them in there place!

Not actually sarcastic.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

I know this is kind of a crazy but - catachan infantry out damage 9 point assault marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No one saying they shouldn't be cheaper - they should be 3 -4 points cheaper.

You don't take ASM to krump sum'un. You take ASM to blindside someone. Charge that tank. Surround and charge from behind while your tacs charge from the front (good luck falling back from that). Pressure them to support their flanks or backfield.

ASM don't need to kill anything. They need to charge into CC against non-CC units, and not die too easily. They just cost too much right now to do that.

Bharring wrote:
On a more serious note, I could see 11ppm tacs and 10 or 11ppm ASM pre-jetpack. 2ppm for jetpacks, probably. Would that actually put them in there place!

Not actually sarcastic.

13 points for a model that does literally nothing except deepstrike?

Without a pack they’re literally a tac marine with a worse gun. Tac marines are already horrendously overcosted.

See, when you start a thread like this, it's really hard to tell when you're trolling. I almost responded.

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyre worse units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

Considering I play Tyranids and this would price Assault Marines the same as Hormagants or Gargoyles, i'm obviously not supporting this change.

But, your post is so garbled - it's like you were hit on the head with a lead pipe while writing it - that i'm not sure if you're insulting me or not.

Bharring wrote:
See, when you start a thread like this, it's really hard to tell when you're trolling. I almost responded.

I’m not trolling, I’m being slightly hyperbolic with the intention of jumpstarting discussion. I honestly think a 6 point assault marine is reasonable, because at 9 points with a jump pack they’d be comparable to scions but still vastly inferior.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

I know this is kind of a crazy but - catachan infantry out damage 9 point assault marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No one saying they shouldn't be cheaper - they should be 3 -4 points cheaper.

Maybe the problem isnt points tho.... everything is good if points are low enough to make up for poor rules.

Look at the start of 8th, DE Razorflock spam won tournaments with T3, S3 melee units with 0 saves.

Making them a few points cheaper is a good start, but i'd rather them have a couple core rules changes.