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This is a behaviour I've been running into more and more often recently and I find it pretty baffling.

Note, I'm not talking about the entirely sound concept that you shouldn't invest your entire sense of self and wellbeing into products and brands, or the idea that focusing on one thing to the exclusion of everything else can be unhealthy. I'm referring specifically to the way that some people will insist that their hobbies - in which they invest large amounts of time and money - mean nothing to them, can mean nothing to them, and that anyone who does treat their hobbies as anything other than utterly disposable and interchangeable is akin to either a pee-jar-collecting loon or the sort of obsessive who has a complex and multifaceted algorithm-driven system for organising their socks.

Sometimes the reasoning at play is fairly obvious - it's often deployed as a final "yeah well I don't care anyway and you're stupid cuz you do and it doesn't matter cuz it's just toy soldiers so nyeeeh" retort when someone has been arguing with every indication of investment in the discussion and is proven demonstrably wrong in their assertions - but often it seems to come out of nowhere, this urge that some have to ensure that everyone around them understands that, yes, they collect little toy men and, yes, they play games with them but what's important is they don't actually care about any of it. Is it really just that these people haven't managed to move beyond that teenage nerd mindset of preemptively dismissing all the things you enjoy so as to shut down opportunities for arseholes to have a go? That seems like the easy explanation, but I struggle to accept it given that the uptick in this that I've been noticing is predominantly among people my age - early 30's - and older, and surely the trend should be for it to become less common with age as people mature and their need for validation from others diminishes, not more.

Maybe your crowd is different from my crowd.

I see "It's just a game" as a self defence mechanism when unhappy in defeat.

I see "it's just toy soldiers" as a self deprecating defence, and/or "please let the significant other work out just how much I spend on this stuff".

I don't see the loon reaction, despite resisting maturity for 50+ years now....

They're just not really that important.

I enjoy them and play with friends, I even owned a store, did commission work, played tournaments and currently make a fair few quid with a youtube channel.

Putting food on the table, paying bills, having relationships, looking after the dog, running a car, maintaining my house, running my other more profitable businesses all take priority over my hobbies.

I'll squeeze extra wargaming in when I can as it's a great way to destress, catch up with people and keeps me motivated but if it were to disappear overnight I could find other ways to amuse myself.

Perhaps the answer is as simple as gentle self-deprecation? Just as some people prefer to brush off compliments on their work, appearance or achievements, some people prefer to be humble about their activities.

Alternatively, hobbies are often a refuge from the issues and problems of the day; a chance to relax and spend some meditative time painting, modelling or playing games.

There are a lot of things going on in the world that are very serious – even frightening. Having control – whether individual, or shared with a select group of friends – over a little world is reassuring; and saying that one's hobby 'doesn't matter' is one way of helping it feel psychologically separate from those more pressing matters.

Think of it less as a dismissal, and more as a linguistic shorthand for 'I value my pasttime as a place for myself and those people I want to share it with'.

IMO it's a mix of the defensiveness you mention and the weird CAAC attitude. The defensiveness is obvious, people feel shame about the stereotypes of gamers and want to make it clear that they're not one of those people. Happening later in life also makes sense, you might not be dealing with high school cliques anymore but there's some pressure from the idea that when you're 30-something you should be married with kids and not spending your time and money on hobbies (unless they're really mainstream stuff like watching football).

The CAAC attitude is the part you're missing, I think. CAAC people start with the assumption that "casual" play is morally superior, and of course the more "casual" you are the more superior you get to be. Once the performative apathy in how much you don't care about winning or having good rules or anything related to the events on the table has been exhausted you have to find other things to be "casual" about. And what better place to go than to insist that your entire involvement in the hobby is "casual"? It's BEER AND PRETZELS taken to the extreme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
They're just not really that important.

I enjoy them and play with friends, I even owned a store, did commission work, played tournaments and currently make a fair few quid with a youtube channel.

Putting food on the table, paying bills, having relationships, looking after the dog, running a car, maintaining my house, running my other more profitable businesses all take priority over my hobbies.

I'll squeeze extra wargaming in when I can as it's a great way to destress, catch up with people and keeps me motivated but if it were to disappear overnight I could find other ways to amuse myself.

Sure, you have other priorities, but do you feel the need to loudly inform everyone around you that you do? The point of the OP is not that people don't make wargaming a top priority in their life, it's that they have to preemptively declare that they care very little about it even when nobody is suggesting otherwise. Which is a really odd thing to do, and contrasts with how we treat other things. If you mention that you cooked dinner do you feel compelled to add a disclaimer that you aren't a professional chef and don't really care about food and only cook because it's an opportunity to spend time with your family and really you'd be happier getting a fast food burger? Of course not. So why is wargaming different?

It might be an preemptive attempt to avoid being labelled as one of those takes it too seriously/burns their models on Youtube/posts long rants online because of a minor fluff change type gamers?

Dunno. I haven't seen this but I play with friends and not taking it seriously goes without saying. Maybe where you play is a factor? Is venue often crammed with the above ultra serious types?

It's no different to other hobbies in that respect.
Another hobby of mine is Larping.
Some people fancy a full weekend in plate mail, eating and sleeping in character and being rudely awoken to be thrown into the shield wall and hit with swords.
Others prefer to take their RV and spend their time gently flitting in and out of politically intriguing plot or wearing fancy clothes, taking a census or working on their topographical maps with a quill. If 'most killings' is what makes you good at larp then these guys suck at it.

Neither option is doing it better they just like what they like.

A more mainstream hobby of mine was Scuba diving. While this can be very clearly measured as to who is doing it 'the best' with a simple depth and time equation it fails to factor in the person that dived for an hour in 3M of water and has produced some stunning photographs or just really enjoyed themselves.
After a while diving as deep as you can for as long as you can just gets kinda dull, best stop to smell the roses once in a while.

It depends very much on the context. If people are using the "it's only toy soldiers" excuse as a defence mechanism when they lose or to berate people who invest more time and effort into the game than them, I find that pretty stupid. It's a hobby and generally you get out what you put in and different people will want different things from it, so criticising someone else because they take it more seriously than you is kind of odd.

OTOH, some of the behaviour we've recently seen from "top" tournament players, and that I have witnessed from some people locally, does have me thinking "it's only toy soldiers". In this context I think people are pointing out the absurdity of tying your personal self-worth to a game to the extent that you would cheat in order to win. I think that has validity too.

Yeah, the context does change things dramatically.

I often say "they're only toy soldiers" because people seem entirely loath to touch displays I put up. I understand the reluctance, because my friends/co-workers aren't jerks and can clearly see a lot of work went into them and there's a fear of messing it up, but at the end of the day they're just toys and they're meant to be played with and enjoyed. I've had a few things break because of poor modelling or droppage, but then I say "and that's why I have glue around" and just put it back together. I find this use to be positive.

Some folks use it as a distancing mechanism, because they're not comfortable acknowledging their hobbies. Others legitimately don't care that deeply about it and just see it as something to do without it being part of their identity. Similar to how going to a bar regularly to hang out with people you know there doesn't make you a bar-fly, playing games doesn't always make you a "gamer" if you're doing it more for the people than the specific activity. You can more readily see this in video games; some people are attached to specific titles, while others just like being around a certain group of people regardless of title/genre.

Repeating it to yourself when you're getting worked up is fairly neutral in my book, if not slightly positive. Saying "it's only toy soldiers" when trying to calm someone else down who's clearly losing their temper about something is....not quite benign, but at least a well-intentioned use (note where good intentions are used as paving stones of course). It's similar to actually saying "let's all just calm down now" in that it has the opposite effect, but it's an attempt to inject perspective. This is a thing done for fun, not because lives or livelihood depend on it. A great many people DO lose that perspective, especially in a tournament setting. Competition brings out the worst of many of us, and the drive to win can cause problems. Keeping "toy soldiers" as an anchor point for emotions is, on the whole, probably okay.

The only one that really bugs me is when someone after a loss or badly-played game says "meh, it's only toy soldiers" to their opponent; that's just being a jerk. It's an attempt to denigrate the fact that they had a better game than you did. While every head-to-head game has a loser (draws have no winners, therefore everyone is a loser ) there's no need to double-down on that by being a poor sport. Losing isn't fun, and it's not something that's good to get used to, but that's not an excuse for trying to cheapen someone else's accomplishment. Whether you feel it was earned or if the "dice betrayed you" doesn't change that they won. Smile, shake hands (or similar gesture) and move on with life...it's only toy soldiers.

Not everyone really cares about how well they do at miniature wargaming. Just like not everyone cares about hitting max level in WOW in 8 hours or not everyone plays Call of Duty to pwn people and sit on top of leader boards.

"meh its only toy soldiers" is putting what happened into a realistic light. Its a way for that person to cope with getting trounced. Its not worth raging over. I don't see someone saying that to me after I beat them as being a jerk to me.

At the end of the day . . . it IS only toy soldiers.

Factually, its a tough statement to argue with.

I can't answer for other people. I struggle to understand myself let alone anyone else!

However I do find that personally from time to time I feel detached and disengaged with this hobby, that I have indulged for nearly 40 years now.

I am a fairly non-competitive person. I will enter a game trying my best to win it, and give my opponent a decent game, but really I am not upset when I lose, nor elated when I win. It is more about working things through on the tabletop and seeing how things go. It is as interesting if an opponent comes up with a great strategy, or one of his units performs ridiculously well, as when I do it. Quite often, after my weekly game my wife or one of my kids will ask "Who won?" and I will quite genuinely have to think hard before answering as, depending on the nature of the game, quite often I will not even have considered the question until that point!

I also, recently, just realised what monetary value I have tied up in boxes and boxes of toy soldiers collected over three decades and sitting in my man cave. The thought occurred that I should really do something about detailing them for insurance purposes. However I am really struggling with making the effort of getting them all out, writing lists of what they are and taking photographs for evidence. I am struggling because my only motivation is that really I ought to for financial probity, not because if they were all destroyed in a fire or flood I would be really upset and want to replace them!

I really feel that a lot of my engagement with the hobby is just habit these days. Its what I've always done, so its what I will always do. I enjoy it, but on those occasions when I have taken breaks due to the necessities of work and family life, I haven't really missed it.

The hobby is a default, comfortable, activity I fall back into when I haven't got anything more interesting or urgent to do, and at times, particularly when work was stressful and the kids were little, provided a relatively low cost (much as we whinge, a box of models and a few paints really doesn't cost a lot as far as hobbies go!) and low demand (it is easy to put down a half-painted model when the baby cries, and then go back to it maybe 3 days later when you finally have some time to yourself again!). The "playing games" element is really a by-product for me. Without it I struggle to find focus for my modelling and painting - I have to have some sort of organised force being constructed to motivate me, otherwise I drift and do nothing. I have no interest in painting for painting's sake as simple art. Yet that gaming experience I am aiming for, really, provides me far less interest and satisfaction than the whole collecting, assembly, and painting process that has led up to it.

I have to say that I have had other hobbies that have come and gone over the years - sea kayaking, and living history re-enactment to name a couple of the more involving ones - I enjoyed them at the time, but once the opportunity to engage in them became more difficult with age and circumstances I dropped them with no regrets and have no desire whatsoever to take them up again.

I have also from time to time felt somewhat bored with the wargaming hobby and have taken long breaks from it of months at a time when I have never set brush to model, nor dice to table. In those moments, had I found another hobby to fill my time which rivaled wargaming in its ability to suit my personal circumstances I probably would have taken it up, but I haven't and instead just spent my leisure hours watching crap on TV and reading books. Which ultimately bored me too and forced me back to the table with renewed vigour in appreciation of the more creative and constructive elements of wargaming compared to such passive persuits.

Maybe I am unusual. Maybe not. I have no clue. But for what it's worth, it sounds like that at the age of 50, I am one of the people the OP may be talking about!

And I have to say that as I have got older this outlook on life has increased not decreased, as I have become more self aware, and experienced with life. Some things are definitely worth caring about - family, health, employment... Some things simply are not - hobbies, sports teams, public image... And there isn't necessarily much correlation between the amount of money or time spent between the two categories, as a lot of that is just down to opportunity rather than priority. I spend a lot more time on my hobbies now than when I was 35, because I have a settled job at the top of my career ladder, and my kids are in their late teens and don't want their dad to play with them, or read a bedtime story to them any more! It doesn't mean I care any less about my work or my family, but they just need me somewhat less than they used to and thre isn't the need or opportunity to be so involved!

As I say, none of this is meant as a criticism of others and their approach to gaming. More "invested" players are as entitled to their style of hobby as anyone else. All I am trying to do is describe where I am at personally as one of those "its only toy soldiers" hobbyists mentioned in the OP.

As was written at the end of a Black Gobbo editorial:

"It's just like toy soldiers, but better!"

Depends on what you're referring to.

I DEFINITELY know people who drop into the "I'm losing, gotta pretend I could GIVE LESS OF A gak about anything." type attitude. Usually, after just a single thing goes wrong early in the game, they'll snap like a lightswitch from this elaborate game plan that hinges on everything going perfectly to "oh, meh, whatever, I guess I'll just charge forward with everything, you've already won anyway..." and pull out a very Dakkadakka General Discussion Forum Eeyore impression.

But as to the whole "it's just toy soldiers, whatever" type casual attitude, that's just folks who use the hobby to relax and hang out with friends rather than play it competitively. This is a game where you can dust off an army you painted 20 years ago and go play a game, and a lot of people do just that - they don't put a ton of effort in, and they mostly use it as a social thing.

 Osbad wrote:
I can't answer for other people. I struggle to understand myself let alone anyone else!

However I do find that personally from time to time I feel detached and disengaged with this hobby, that I have indulged for nearly 40 years now.

I am a fairly non-competitive person. I will enter a game trying my best to win it, and give my opponent a decent game, but really I am not upset when I lose, nor elated when I win. It is more about working things through on the tabletop and seeing how things go. It is as interesting if an opponent comes up with a great strategy, or one of his units performs ridiculously well, as when I do it. Quite often, after my weekly game my wife or one of my kids will ask "Who won?" and I will quite genuinely have to think hard before answering as, depending on the nature of the game, quite often I will not even have considered the question until that point!

I also, recently, just realised what monetary value I have tied up in boxes and boxes of toy soldiers collected over three decades and sitting in my man cave. The thought occurred that I should really do something about detailing them for insurance purposes. However I am really struggling with making the effort of getting them all out, writing lists of what they are and taking photographs for evidence. I am struggling because my only motivation is that really I ought to for financial probity, not because if they were all destroyed in a fire or flood I would be really upset and want to replace them!

I really feel that a lot of my engagement with the hobby is just habit these days. Its what I've always done, so its what I will always do. I enjoy it, but on those occasions when I have taken breaks due to the necessities of work and family life, I haven't really missed it.

The hobby is a default, comfortable, activity I fall back into when I haven't got anything more interesting or urgent to do, and at times, particularly when work was stressful and the kids were little, provided a relatively low cost (much as we whinge, a box of models and a few paints really doesn't cost a lot as far as hobbies go!) and low demand (it is easy to put down a half-painted model when the baby cries, and then go back to it maybe 3 days later when you finally have some time to yourself again!). The "playing games" element is really a by-product for me. Without it I struggle to find focus for my modelling and painting - I have to have some sort of organised force being constructed to motivate me, otherwise I drift and do nothing. I have no interest in painting for painting's sake as simple art. Yet that gaming experience I am aiming for, really, provides me far less interest and satisfaction than the whole collecting, assembly, and painting process that has led up to it.

I have to say that I have had other hobbies that have come and gone over the years - sea kayaking, and living history re-enactment to name a couple of the more involving ones - I enjoyed them at the time, but once the opportunity to engage in them became more difficult with age and circumstances I dropped them with no regrets and have no desire whatsoever to take them up again.

I have also from time to time felt somewhat bored with the wargaming hobby and have taken long breaks from it of months at a time when I have never set brush to model, nor dice to table. In those moments, had I found another hobby to fill my time which rivaled wargaming in its ability to suit my personal circumstances I probably would have taken it up, but I haven't and instead just spent my leisure hours watching crap on TV and reading books. Which ultimately bored me too and forced me back to the table with renewed vigour in appreciation of the more creative and constructive elements of wargaming compared to such passive persuits.

Maybe I am unusual. Maybe not. I have no clue. But for what it's worth, it sounds like that at the age of 50, I am one of the people the OP may be talking about!

And I have to say that as I have got older this outlook on life has increased not decreased, as I have become more self aware, and experienced with life. Some things are definitely worth caring about - family, health, employment... Some things simply are not - hobbies, sports teams, public image... And there isn't necessarily much correlation between the amount of money or time spent between the two categories, as a lot of that is just down to opportunity rather than priority. I spend a lot more time on my hobbies now than when I was 35, because I have a settled job at the top of my career ladder, and my kids are in their late teens and don't want their dad to play with them, or read a bedtime story to them any more! It doesn't mean I care any less about my work or my family, but they just need me somewhat less than they used to and thre isn't the need or opportunity to be so involved!

As I say, none of this is meant as a criticism of others and their approach to gaming. More "invested" players are as entitled to their style of hobby as anyone else. All I am trying to do is describe where I am at personally as one of those "its only toy soldiers" hobbyists mentioned in the OP.

Wow you really nailed how I feel about this. Only 33 though but I do have 2 small toddlers and I started painting again when they were in their nappies. Now that they are a bit bigger I mostly paint in the evening when they are asleep while watching TV and talking a bit to the misses.

It could be that taking things too seriously is mentally and emotionally exhausting, and the claim that they are "just toy soldiers" is a reminder that maybe having an aneurysm over them maybe deserves a re-centering of one's perspective.

Personally, I take my toy soldiers very seriously. I fething love toy soldiers.

Despite my cynicism, I'd like to try and assume the best in people (until proven otherwise), and so I'd like to assume that the "it's only toy soldiers" is as much for themselves as it is for others.

Think of it as a way that someone can express themselves, because them saying so says as much about them as it does what they may be trying to say to you. Maybe they took the game a little too seriously and don't like losing; they need to verbally anchor themselves and remind themselves that it's just a game while at the same time saying to you "I lost, and I don't like losing, but I recognize that it's just a game and won't let it get to me".

It may be an indication that they have difficulty coming to grips with losing and so have to feign disinterest in the game and it's outcome as a way of rationalizing and internalizing whatever emotions they're going through.

Obviously context, the relationship of the speakers/receivers, etc. have to be considered if you really want to dissect why someone would claim that "it's only toy soldiers", but truthfully, if someone says this to you, maybe just ask them (non-confrontationally?) what they mean? It may spark genuine conversation and revelation into motive and emotion, and would help understand where they're coming from, why they play the game, and perhaps even helping to re-orient themselves so that they're less inclined to be as openly dismissive about the game in the event of a loss (assuming it was said with some sort of negativity).

Of course, I think the more interesting statement to dissect would be "it's MORE than toy soldiers." But that's just me.

I think the "issue", if there is one, is that wargaming is, first and foremost, a hobby. I'm not sure what the dictionary definition of a hobby is, but I'd imagine it involves terms like "spare time", "enjoyment", "relaxation", etc.

Hobby: 1. an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

Hmmm, close enough. Generally speaking, we're not paid for our hobbies. How we perceive pleasure from the hobby is varying. Personally, I've had a number of highly confrontational/high stress jobs (law enforcement, etc.) so my hobby pleasure is derived from painting/assembling models and having a fun narrative game with buddies, with zero stress, angst or overly competitive stuff. I am very serious about the amount of work/effort I put into my miniatures, my tables, running games, helping others, etc....but the competitive side of the game is my last area of concern. Having dealt with real donkey-caves and douchebags...I don't need even a whiff of that showing up in my leisure time.

At that point, if you're cursing, slamming stuff or flipping a table...then yes, it is "just toy soldiers". It's a game. Unless you're playing top-table at a tournament for $3-4K (which shouldn't be a thing in wargaming anyway), you have NOTHING to get pissed at. So if you're taking the hobby seriously in that you invest lots of money, and are passionate about it - that's great. If you're taking the hobby seriously in that you're wound up really fething tight over the outcome of a game...that's on you. I can say that I get a little grumpy when I'm having a completely gak game, but I generally don't wig out or curse, or ruin the game for people. I can see when I'm getting a little grump and I'll tell my opponent "Sorry, struggling to enjoy this game right now...it's tough.". It's something I'd personally like to work on.

So, is hobbying/wargaming something you can be heavily invested in and very passionate about? Absolutely.

Is it something you should get angry about and stress yourself out over? No. It is "just toy soldiers".

It's a phrase that can mean almost anything. For me, I'll generally use it to let my opponent know that I'm understanding of mistakes and would rather actively assist doing things correctly than pounce on an error for a win. There is really nothing at stake (even in a tournament) and its a good reminder that a win isn't really worth sacrificing the fun of the game in progress.

I'm casual but not caac I don't play narrative games and I build lists that can win but are still kinda fluffy.

And I 100% think it's just toy soldiers.

You can't make 40k victories your highest accomplishment anymore than you could any other war game, it's not chess or go.

Winning isn't everything and losing isn't the end of the world.

Well it is just toy soldiers...we are playing with toys.
And Heck with how much you see unpainted it's even more like toys

ValentineGames wrote:
Well it is just toy soldiers...we are playing with toys.
And Heck with how much you see unpainted it's even more like toys

Very few toys are unpainted, honestly.

Army men are unpainted. Surly they are the very definition of toy soldiers?

Osbad wrote:I can't answer for other people. I struggle to understand myself let alone anyone else!

However I do find that personally from time to time I feel detached and disengaged with this hobby, that I have indulged for nearly 40 years now.

I am a fairly non-competitive person. I will enter a game trying my best to win it, and give my opponent a decent game, but really I am not upset when I lose, nor elated when I win. It is more about working things through on the tabletop and seeing how things go. It is as interesting if an opponent comes up with a great strategy, or one of his units performs ridiculously well, as when I do it. Quite often, after my weekly game my wife or one of my kids will ask "Who won?" and I will quite genuinely have to think hard before answering as, depending on the nature of the game, quite often I will not even have considered the question until that point!

I also, recently, just realised what monetary value I have tied up in boxes and boxes of toy soldiers collected over three decades and sitting in my man cave. The thought occurred that I should really do something about detailing them for insurance purposes. However I am really struggling with making the effort of getting them all out, writing lists of what they are and taking photographs for evidence. I am struggling because my only motivation is that really I ought to for financial probity, not because if they were all destroyed in a fire or flood I would be really upset and want to replace them!

I really feel that a lot of my engagement with the hobby is just habit these days. Its what I've always done, so its what I will always do. I enjoy it, but on those occasions when I have taken breaks due to the necessities of work and family life, I haven't really missed it.

The hobby is a default, comfortable, activity I fall back into when I haven't got anything more interesting or urgent to do, and at times, particularly when work was stressful and the kids were little, provided a relatively low cost (much as we whinge, a box of models and a few paints really doesn't cost a lot as far as hobbies go!) and low demand (it is easy to put down a half-painted model when the baby cries, and then go back to it maybe 3 days later when you finally have some time to yourself again!). The "playing games" element is really a by-product for me. Without it I struggle to find focus for my modelling and painting - I have to have some sort of organised force being constructed to motivate me, otherwise I drift and do nothing. I have no interest in painting for painting's sake as simple art. Yet that gaming experience I am aiming for, really, provides me far less interest and satisfaction than the whole collecting, assembly, and painting process that has led up to it.

I have to say that I have had other hobbies that have come and gone over the years - sea kayaking, and living history re-enactment to name a couple of the more involving ones - I enjoyed them at the time, but once the opportunity to engage in them became more difficult with age and circumstances I dropped them with no regrets and have no desire whatsoever to take them up again.

I have also from time to time felt somewhat bored with the wargaming hobby and have taken long breaks from it of months at a time when I have never set brush to model, nor dice to table. In those moments, had I found another hobby to fill my time which rivaled wargaming in its ability to suit my personal circumstances I probably would have taken it up, but I haven't and instead just spent my leisure hours watching crap on TV and reading books. Which ultimately bored me too and forced me back to the table with renewed vigour in appreciation of the more creative and constructive elements of wargaming compared to such passive persuits.

Maybe I am unusual. Maybe not. I have no clue. But for what it's worth, it sounds like that at the age of 50, I am one of the people the OP may be talking about!

And I have to say that as I have got older this outlook on life has increased not decreased, as I have become more self aware, and experienced with life. Some things are definitely worth caring about - family, health, employment... Some things simply are not - hobbies, sports teams, public image... And there isn't necessarily much correlation between the amount of money or time spent between the two categories, as a lot of that is just down to opportunity rather than priority. I spend a lot more time on my hobbies now than when I was 35, because I have a settled job at the top of my career ladder, and my kids are in their late teens and don't want their dad to play with them, or read a bedtime story to them any more! It doesn't mean I care any less about my work or my family, but they just need me somewhat less than they used to and thre isn't the need or opportunity to be so involved!

As I say, none of this is meant as a criticism of others and their approach to gaming. More "invested" players are as entitled to their style of hobby as anyone else. All I am trying to do is describe where I am at personally as one of those "its only toy soldiers" hobbyists mentioned in the OP.

BrookM wrote:As was written at the end of a Black Gobbo editorial:

"It's just like toy soldiers, but better!"

Sqorgar wrote:It could be that taking things too seriously is mentally and emotionally exhausting, and the claim that they are "just toy soldiers" is a reminder that maybe having an aneurysm over them maybe deserves a re-centering of one's perspective.

Personally, I take my toy soldiers very seriously. I fething love toy soldiers.

All of the above?

I love my toy soldiers. I am over 40. In perspective. They are just toy soldiers and I don't give a damn. I play aggressively though but in the end it's a game and nothing more. Something I do for social fun the same way others might play an office sport or a weekend sport with friends. I also get insane joy over the seeking of perfection (I guess I am Fulgrim without the Slaneeshi stuff). I really enjoy seeking perfection of detail and painting little figures sates that urge. I found the same urges drive me just as detailed when reloading ammunition. I have a stack of hand written books with details on details of lot numbers of powder, type, temp, humidity, altitude, powder charge, bullet brand, bullet actual weight, total cartridge weight when loaded, COL, velocity, 10 shot average, group size, standard deviation, Extreme Spread. I've got similar notes for painting in an art book with painted swatches and notes and color schemes over the course of almost three decades now.

Toy soldiers are awesome fun, but in the end they are just toy soldiers.

I've got two little ones and a wonderful wife and a good life despite what the last 8 years has taken from me physically,

Same old behaviors with different reasons:

"I am not seriously playing with dolls." (they are action figures): They are model "toys" and it would not do to show you take them seriously.

"It means little.": In the scheme of things ANY hobby is "just" a hobby. Wife, kids, work, taxes... it is all terribly serious in comparison.

"I am cooler than you": Really in the scheme of things "everything" is "just" part of your life and not important compared to mine, which I still don't take seriously.

"I did not lose, much.": I will make you feel like a small human being for showing any joy in a win with little little toy dollies and we can forget about my loss.

"This is not important to me, much." (though I have $5000 worth of stuff...): Trying to contain my fanboy excitement and not come across like a nut-bar to the "normal" folk.

"Oh looky! the neckbeard is going to school us on dolly rules!": The fine tested and true troll-bait. It doesn't matter what I REALLY feel on the subject, just how much I can belittle your happiness and fire you up.

All the various reasoning I have seen in others or from myself.

It looks like the discussion has wandered a bit.

I don't think the OP was taking issue with the simple (and healthy) attitude that it's not the end of the world.

It is more the attitude that people are dismissive of something they've clearly invested time and money into, and consequently must be passionate about, because you simply don't spend the time and money we invest in this hobby if you don't love it.

Personally, I think it's a reflex that's probably generated from an insecurity about the hobby (or just a general widespread personal insecurity) where by denigrating it first, you head off any potential mickey taking by taking the power from the other party. You can't really effectively tease someone about something they apparently aren't concerned by.

It takes a lot more effort to stand up for something and declare yourself as team toy soldiers than it does to lay into it and tear it to pieces. Look around this very board for examples of this every day.

The correct behaviour should probably be this..


But the reality is that maintaining that atttiude, especially if you lack a certain degree of self confidence, is difficult and sometimes exhausting.

Those are some good ones, but I'm still a fan of "that mistake you made in the rules does not demand your head on a pike".

Different people have different levels of commitment and interest to their hobbies. It's not necessarily a judgment on you if you're more engaged.

At my local shop, during 6-7 edition there were only a 2-3 people that played 40k and Warmachine was the game to play. I had been interested in starting up 40k again, but the local scene didn't exist and allegedly the rules sucked.

So, wanting to get into some wargaming again, I got a few Warmachine models. I'm not much into fantasy - don't care for the lore, am so-so on the models, and so-so on the rules. Despite that, i still had fun painting and going out on occasion to game. I didn't gripe about the game - and if i did it was minimally - but i really didn't care about winning/losing. I didn't invest much thought into my armies or strategies.

I think the OP is a bit hyperbolic overall. It's not black and white. If someone is playing the game, they obviously have interest in some aspect of the game. If they're actively constantly griping about it, then tell them to knock it off or quit playing. I played WM with people that were really into it - I've got at least the basic social skills to know that any of my gripes won't be appreciated.

Of course when 40k came back, I was happy. I love the lore, watch lore videos, read wikis - but my WM friend really was about engaged in 40k to the same level I was engaged in Warmachine. That's fine as long as he didn't spend entire games knocking on 40k.

I dunno; I have no shame in my hobbies and will happily regale colleagues with tales of my Blood Bowl losses; I very much enjoy their incomprehension.

But I am the definition of ‘it’s only toy soldiers’

OP; what would you prefer? Frankly if someone is losing I’d much rather they try and keep it in perspective and laugh it off. Would you prefer they were upset, or angry, or just very serious and earnest, or what? Why does their attitude irritate you?

This has nothing to do with geek culture BTW; I have friends who become miserable if their team loses. I’d be much happier if they shrugged and said it was only a game, and if they did I wouldn’t think they were ashamed of football.

Not caring about the outcome of a game that didn’t go your way =/= not caring or placing value in the hobby. You can be serious without being over serious. You can enjoy a game you lost. It’s not all WAAC vs CAAC as some people would paint it. The polarised nature of the net can just make it seem so, especially in such a noisy whinge space as Dakka (people do whiiiiinge sooo).