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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Kill team tactica: Deathwatch!

Deathwatch is a really interesting faction in Kill Team. Like most elite teams, teams of Deathwatch hover between 5 and 6 members, and when discussing Deathwatch it's relevant to compare them to the likes of Grey Knights, Plague Marines, vanilla Primaris Marines and Rubric Marines.

Deathwatch has some unique advantages and disadvantages over both.

Pros:

Cost: only Plague Marines are cheaper (15pt specials vs DWs 16pt specials), this gives Deathwatch a high level of flexibility with 5-man teams and a decent level of flexibility with 6-man teams.

Customization: We beat out every "Marine+" army except for possibly Plague Marines with our level of customization for individual troopers. The almost totally rigid Rubrics and Primaris Marines don't even get the level of options we have on basic vets with their special troopers. The ability to get melta/plasma on basic troops as well as the high number of melee options cannot be understated. only TWO options are locked behind the "paywall" of making a trooper into a gunner, and while those two are well worth it, you'll never be forced to pick between having heavy guns or specials like melta/plasma.

Access to 3++ invuln saves: Only ones in the game baby! They come at the high price of both 3pts AND giving up a special boltgun, but the ability to have a 3++ save gives Leaders and Blackshields a much needed boost to durability while retaining pretty good damage output.

Solid Base Stats: LD8/LD9 leaders are a godsend in Kill Team with frequent leadership tests, 2A on basic dudes puts us on par with primaris and death guard fighters.

In-game flexibility: No ranged weapon in the deathwatch arsenal has fewer than 2 fire modes. Most have 3-4. That's huge when playing in a game mode where you only have 5-6 models, particularly when it comes to absolute stars like the Frag Cannon which can bring down an enemy heavy with its S9 AP-3 D2 mode and hose down swarms with its 2d6 shot mode.

Basic troopers get melee gear and can actually kill things: Ah, that wonderful combo of having A2 like the primaris marines AND good AP like grey knights. In kill team you will get swarmed by cheapo enemy models occasionally, and many games I've played so far have devolved into melee mosh pits between half your team and half the enemy team, and watching the Deathwatch slowly chop theirselves out of a mob of shoota boyz or chaos cultists is a wonderful sight to see.

Cons:

Durability: Besides the guys you give those storm shields, your troopers will feel mighty thin for their cost. Particularly in five-man configurations, your troopers will feel the same pain that the GK units do - cost like Rubrics, die like Tacticals.

Most guns have low damage: for all the fancy-shmanciness of the Stalker boltgun, special ammo, infernus boltgun and every guy having access to power weapons, the high levels of D1 in our weapon pool start to be a drag, especially when fighting disposable enemies. Our only high damage melee weapon is the HTH, which is sadly just like in 40k shackled to the 2A Veteran rather than being allowed on the 3A sergeant or blackshield. As always, you pay for flexibility with loss of speciality, so when facing up against those hyper durable rubrics or plagueboys who cost the same and die wayyyyy harder, or going up against a huge swarm of disposable mooks that make you feel like your boltguns just don't fire enough shots, you will feel the weight of all those options you paid points for and aren't using.

6-man Team Composition:

Technically speaking, you could run a 7-man team of deathwatch (6*14+16=100), but you'd have only bolters and you'd probably have a pretty bad time against most opponents. 99.9% of the time, the choice you'll be making is 5 man, or 6 man.

If you go for a 6-man team, you have 14 spare points to play with to create your team distributed amongst your 6 members.

General pointers

-I'd advise going for the "longer ranged and cheap" configuration for your leader rather than "built for melee and protected." My usual melee leader configuration clocks in at 21 with storm shield and power maul, but if you anticipate running a lot of 6 man teams, a second leader with a Stalker boltgun for 17pts (only using one of your spare 14) is probably better. Save the expensive goodies for your specialists!

-a black shield is probably not advisable in a 6-man team. It costs 2 of your points off the bat to bring him and you usually want to give him 2 power swords for 4 points so you can run him as a Zealot for 4 S5 Ap-3 attacks on the charge with the potential for 2 separate injury rolls. For close combat in a 6-man team, arming a vet with a power sword or maul and giving him a combat oriented specialism is usually more economical. Save your big spending for the gunners.

-Gunners are the spot I'd choose to splurge in a 6-man killteam. A frag cannon is an unholy terror when it's screened by a few spare bodies, though it costs 7 of your 14 points to put one on the table in a 6 man squad. The frag is an excellent candidate for the Comms specialism, because you can choose to either take that vital +1 to hit for yourself when shooting your Shell mode, or pass it off to a buddy when going in for the Frag autohit. I'm unimpressed with Demolitions on a frag cannon, save that specialism for a Shotgun veteran, where the various + to wound traits will really shine.

-Shotguns, stalker boltguns, and power mauls are all great economical ways to boost up individual kill team members.

Example of a sample 6-man team:

Watch Sergeant 16 Stalker Boltgun 1 (Leader)
Deathwatch Gunner 16 Frag Cannon 5 (Comms)
Deathwatch Veteran 14 Shotgun 1 (Demolitions)
Deathwatch Veteran 14 Power Sword 2 (Zealot)
Deathwatch Veteran 14 Power Maul 2
Deathwatch Veteran 14 Shotgun 1
Deathwatch Veteran 14

Most of the time, if you're running 6-man, you're looking to get more bodies on the table to avoid getting swarmed and overwhelmed (e.g. against Chaos Marines, Orks, GSC or Eldar). For that reason I've kept the list light on high-damage weaponry you'd be taking against other marines or other elite factions.

5-man team composition:

With 28 points to spare, here's where your marines start to get fancy. The big con of the 5-man squad in a campaign is that you're not going to be leveling your fireteam unless you leave a specialist out (this is where the frag cannon working reasonably well as a non-specialist can help you out). In campaigns, because of the increasing points costs of specialists, you'll most likely be running 5-man squads most of the time. General tips:

-Resist the temptation to go All Guns. Yes, you can run a bolter sarge and 4 frag cannons. no, that is probably not a good idea. Nearly all games will involve some melee, even if it's just enemies hurling disposable mooks like shield drones at you to try and reduce the shooting output of your team by 20%. My general advice is that 1-2 team members should be dedicated melee goons and 1-2 should have melee as an option (e.g. a ranged weapon and a power weapon).

-It's about this time when you'll start thinking about Primaris Marines, and about time when you'll look at the line that says "Bolt Pistol - 2pts" and "Heavy Bolt Pistol - 2pts" with increasing frustration. A basic intercessor is 19 points no matter how you slice it, and a reiver with a carbine is a hefty 20. 5 points over a vet for 6" of range, 1 point of AP and +1W, or 6 points over a vet for -1LD, +1A and +1W is not even remotely worth it. The one saving grace of Primaris in my opinion is the option to go for a Carbine/Combat Knife reiver sarge for 19pts. +2A, +1W, and a boltgun that still gets 2 shots outside of 12" is pretty decent, with the fear rule and shock grenades as a cherry on top. Also he a pretty good third Leader configuration in between the basic Stalker Boltgun for 17pts and the Storm Shield/Melee Weapon for 21pts. The reiver sarge, and to a lesser extent the basic pistol/knife reiver, are worth taking a look at as a Deathwatch player, but I'd never spring for an intercessor at their points cost. EDIT: As it turns out, Reivers have one huge saving grace, and it's their frankly kickass mobility equipment coupled with their pistol build. A reiver standing atop of terrain with a Grav-chute is among the most threatening melee combatants in the game, because he can engage sans overwatch with a simple Jump Down action following a standard move, and then *because he didn't charge, he moved*, he then gets to pop his target in the face with his heavy bolt pistol in the following shooting phase. That is bonkers. The grapple is also useful for getting into combat with people who are camping on the top floors of ruins, making the reiver sarge an excellent bully, but I would try to build for one trick at a time personally. My recommended Reiver builds would be either sarge/carbine/knife/grapple for 20 or reiver/pistol/knife/chute for 19. The basic reiver makes a great option for the non-specialist in your 5 man team, but if he is to be a specialist I'd choose Combat over zealot since remember he won't be aiming to do a lot of actual charge actions.

-You'll want to consider HTH combat vet vs a Blackshield for your dedicated Close Combat Guy. The blackshield offers increased flexibility - armed with 2 powerswords and Zealot he hits 2 times with each sword at S5 AP-3, and if he scores a wound with both, he deals 2 separate injury rolls, meaning he's really quite good at taking out nearly any kind of target. The HTH on the other hand is the absolute king of braining highly elite opponents, which means you'll be reaching for him fairly often in a 5-man configuration when you're facing off against opponents like plague marines and rubrics. The blackshield can also be made even more reliable with a storm shield+one weapon, but I tend to leave that at home in favor of running my leader with the shield. Kill Team is a game of Protect the Leader, and a leader is actually fairly safe with a storm shield in combat with a swarm of cheap chaff troops that can't hurt him.

Sample 5-man configuration

Sergeant 16 Storm Shield 3 Power Maul 2 (Leader)
Gunner 16 Infernus Bolter 3 (Heavy)
Veteran 14 HTH 5 (Combat)
Veteran 14 Combi-Plasma 4 Power Sword 2 (Sniper)
Gunner 16 Frag Cannon 5 (Fireteam)

This would be a solid configuration for a team to fight Thousand Sons, with plenty of range to reach out and boop the sorceror if he shows himself, and two anti-horde weapons to deal with any Tzaangor support before shifting fire modes to start whacking Rubrics as they get close (Infernus Bolter can always fling a Hellfire shell if you only have elite targets).

Weapon-by-weapon analysis

Pretty much everything in the Deathwatch catalog has at least some edge case uses, even the choices that are pretty poor in 40k (HTH and Infernus come to mind) the addition of Kill Team's specialist rules give us unprecedented freedom of weapon loadouts, so when and how should we use each weapon?

Boltgun: The old standby. Boltguns are not the hindrance to the Deathwatch that they are in the Space Marine, Chaos Marine and Death Guard lists, because Special Issue Ammo ensures they stay relevant even on fairly expensive bodies. When to take a boltgun is obvious: when you don't want something else. The biggest drawback of the boltgun is its dropoff in effectiveness over half range, and its lack of access to any multi-damage fire modes. problems you can solve with the Stalker and Shotgun, respectively for one point more.

Deathwatch Shotgun: Discount Frag Cannon. Since it costs a full 6 points less (factoring in the cost of becoming a Gunner to get the cannon) the difference seems a whole lot less impactful. The biggest drawback to this gun is it can't be paired with a power maul for when the enemy's chaff models inevitably do close with your shotgunner and tie him up. The shotgun gets really hilarious when combined with the Demolitions specialty, where even tough enemies will learn to fear the Xenopurge Slug - for 1CP, it can wound an obscured T4 model on a re-rollable 2+ to try and get that coveted damage 2 injury roll. probably the best overall "keep it cheap" specialist the Deathwatch have.

Stalker Boltgun: pretty much the only sniper-style weapon in the game where the Sniper specialism is actually better than the Demolitions specialism, because it doesn't dish mortal wounds. Take it when you want your leader cheap, or you don't have a combi-plasma and you want a cheap specialist. Because Deathwatch runs so few bodies and has such high leadership, pretty much the only way the team will break is if everyone is flesh wounded, so having someone hanging back not taking wounds can be an emperor-send. Another cute option for a Stalker boltgun wielder is the Heavy specialism, since MOre Bullets is at its most effective when it's upgrading a 2-shot gun to a 3-shot gun, and Suppressor is a good trait to have on the gun that's the least likely to be taking targets OOA. Consider if you have a spare specialist slot and don't have an infernus bolter in your team.

Combi-Melta: The iffiest weapon vets can take. Meltas have it tough in Kill Team because they're so reliant on the expensive 2Cp "decisive shot" stratagem. Run up to melta a Rubric marine and he's likely to just Ready up and plug you with a pair of S4 AP-2 shots before you can take the shot, unless you pony up your 2 points. Mostly I'd save the combi meltas for when you're taking on teams with very heavy close-range combatants, like tyranids, Plague Marine fighters or Reivers.

Combi-Plasma: Hello, sniper specialist! Hands down a must for when you're bringing one of these for the reroll of 1s, because unlike Guard, our basic boltgun is already a rapid fire weapon that wounds on 2s, so if you're using plasma, you better Overcharge it to get that damage 2. Thanks to overcharge only killing you on a natural 1, you might actually decide to use the bolter half of the combi as well.

Power Sword: Mathwise, very similar to the power maul on an unbuffed model, the breakpoint in effectivenss comes when you're fighting T3 5+ models (Guard, Cultists, GSC, Eldar) or T4 6+ models (orks). Power swords have the edge against marines of all types and Tau, where all the points of AP are useful. The difference is extremely slight however, and I would not sweat it given the massive number of swords that come in the kit. For obvious reasons 99% of the time you'll be wanting the off-hand swords, not the one that replaces your boltgun. If you're looking specifically at a Zealot specialist, always take the sword (or swords), because S6-S7 will never matter in Kill Team.

Power Maul: See above. If your model is likely to fight chumps, give them a maul rather than a sword (I take one on my leader because I purposefully seek out combat against chumps to avoid him getting shot)

Xenophase Blade: This is one of the most situational weapons in the arsenal, but the difference between it and the sword is so slight that honestly...if it looks cool to you take it. Its rule only matters vs Harlequins, Wyches, Thousand Sons, Genestealers and other Deathwatch. It's certainly great to have in those situations, but I find my leader to be more often in combat with a gaggle of orks, cultists or other cheap enemy troops than he is getting attacked by units with invuln saves.

Heavy Thunder Hammer: It's pretty much a must to make this guy a Combat specialist for the +1A and Warrior Adept at level 2, Combat Adept level 3, basically take anything that makes him more likely to get to that sweet sweet D6 damage roll. Ideally any turn you get to swing with your HTH, he should just remove an enemy.

Deathwatch Frag Cannon: *slaps frag cannon* this baby can fit so many unsaved wounds on it. The frag cannon is among the biggest F-off guns in the game, the biggest problem with it is the absolutely ludicrous level of overkill it typically applies to single model targets, and its high cost. In my experience, you buy this for the Frag profile, and you actually use it in game with the Shell profile, simply because of the D2 stat letting you reliably take models OOA in one shot. This is a great candidate for either your Fireteam member or to take it as one of your support specialisms, because its so ludicrously powerful on its own that you almost don't need any to-hit or to-wound boosts to have it reliably knock out an enemy model with each OOA. Alternatively, make it a member of your Fireteam to offset some of your opponent's target priority. As a final note, try to avoid taking the Frag Cannon alongside other models who will need to be using the 2CP Decisive Shot action (Meltas being the most common) because if you dive in for a close range frag cannon shot, your opponent will respond by Readying up and trying to take him out.

Infernus Bolter: Pretty much our weapon tailor-made for the Heavy specialism, particularly the Suppressor/Overwhelming Firepower combo at short range letting you spread around an absolutely obscene number of hits and debuffs. While it may look like a total downgrade from the frag cannon, its increased effective range and reduced cost make it remain quite relevant as an option, and as I get more games I start choosing it over the cannon more and more.

Storm Shield: The thing you use to keep your dude alive well past when he should be dead. We've been over the leader build, but there's also an entertaining option of JUST having a storm shield and nothing else on a 17pt vet. You still have a Krak grenade which is a solid short-range option for taking enemies out (D3 damage is really awesome!) and you can essentially run around being a big fat distraction. it's something I've tried only a couple times, but both times my opponent and I have ended up laughing about how stupidly hard to kill Mr Storm Shield was as he slowly bonked enemies that should have shredded other marines to death like Genestealers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 11:44:01


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





Wow, this is a lot to look over.

How do you feel about fielding Primaris Deathwatch, using a combination of Intercessors and Reivers? What Loadout would you recommend?

Because I'm a big fan of beefy pistols, Stalker Bolt Rifles, knife-murder, screaming armored lunatics, and big dudes stomping around 'covertly'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 13:06:36


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Wow, this is a lot to look over.

How do you feel about fielding Primaris Deathwatch, using a combination of Intercessors and Reivers? What Loadout would you recommend?

Because I'm a big fan of beefy pistols, Stalker Bolt Rifles, knife-murder, screaming armored lunatics, and big dudes stomping around 'covertly'.


Primaris deathwatch actually did well for me over the weekend, and I tested out regular vets in one game against harlequins - I wish I had run the primaris that game too, as I was just instagibbed. Primaris would have been a little more hardy and given me a better chance that game I think. Intercessors have the extra tax of having to take two 2-point weapons but I am loving the bolt rifle so far, and reivers with SIA are very nice.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Wow, this is a lot to look over.

How do you feel about fielding Primaris Deathwatch, using a combination of Intercessors and Reivers? What Loadout would you recommend?

Because I'm a big fan of beefy pistols, Stalker Bolt Rifles, knife-murder, screaming armored lunatics, and big dudes stomping around 'covertly'.


Honestly? My recommendation is that a pure primaris team is probably 100% more effective as Space Marines than as Deathwatch. You get better stratagems (like that sweet reiver one that lets you throw a grenade before your charge so the enemy model hit can't fire Overwatch in addition to the other effects of the grenade, such as not being allowed to fire Overwatch...it still does something it's just worded very strangely) you can take the most effective boltgun/bolt pistol configurations without paying through the nose, and SIA isn't all that impressive.

Compare a basic vet with a Stalker boltgun to a Primaris marine with a bolt rifle and you'll see what I mean.

You get

+1W
Rapid fire so 1 shot past half range
-1LD

For the low, low cost of 4 points more.

IMO, there are two, possibly three viable Deathwatch primaris configurations.

Reiver sarge, carbine, combat knife. 19pts. Really solid build to give your Leader a little extra durability and bring the Reiver benefits to the table (shock grenades and terror tactics)

Reiver, HBP, Combat Knife. 18pts. Is it actually worth more than 16pts for a SM reiver? You get your one shot of SIA, you get your Rival Chapters and Decapitation Docrine, but you lose out on all the good marine strats and you pay 2pts more. Plus, what's your competing basic Deathwatch option? Blackshield with Power Sword and Boltgun. Same points cost. Same number of attacks. -3AP vs 0AP. Double the shooting and range. Rerolls charges. 1 fewer wound and no grenades/terror tactics...but that's an easy trade off.

Intercessor sarge, power weapon or chainsword, bolt pistol. 18pts/20pts with sword. Another possible good Leader build, but I like the reiver a whole lot more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jacksmiles wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Wow, this is a lot to look over.

How do you feel about fielding Primaris Deathwatch, using a combination of Intercessors and Reivers? What Loadout would you recommend?

Because I'm a big fan of beefy pistols, Stalker Bolt Rifles, knife-murder, screaming armored lunatics, and big dudes stomping around 'covertly'.


Primaris deathwatch actually did well for me over the weekend, and I tested out regular vets in one game against harlequins - I wish I had run the primaris that game too, as I was just instagibbed. Primaris would have been a little more hardy and given me a better chance that game I think. Intercessors have the extra tax of having to take two 2-point weapons but I am loving the bolt rifle so far, and reivers with SIA are very nice.


The problem is, a couple stormshield holding guys are far more durable against Harlequins than Deathwatch are, because just taking a Harlequins' kiss or Fusion Pistol basically cancels out the 2W entirely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 13:32:49


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Jacksmiles wrote:


Primaris deathwatch actually did well for me over the weekend, and I tested out regular vets in one game against harlequins - I wish I had run the primaris that game too, as I was just instagibbed. Primaris would have been a little more hardy and given me a better chance that game I think. Intercessors have the extra tax of having to take two 2-point weapons but I am loving the bolt rifle so far, and reivers with SIA are very nice.


The problem is, a couple stormshield holding guys are far more durable against Harlequins than Deathwatch are, because just taking a Harlequins' kiss or Fusion Pistol basically cancels out the 2W entirely.


That's fair, and something I need to build to test. But my experience so far is dw primaris is playing smoothly for me against other opponents, particularly with SIA. My teams have felt like a good mix of offense and defense. You may be right for now about Primaris being better suited for SM with their tactics, but DW tactics will be coming. I'm going to test my SM primaris next time I get to play though, I'll see how that goes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 13:43:51


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Jacksmiles wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:


Primaris deathwatch actually did well for me over the weekend, and I tested out regular vets in one game against harlequins - I wish I had run the primaris that game too, as I was just instagibbed. Primaris would have been a little more hardy and given me a better chance that game I think. Intercessors have the extra tax of having to take two 2-point weapons but I am loving the bolt rifle so far, and reivers with SIA are very nice.


The problem is, a couple stormshield holding guys are far more durable against Harlequins than Deathwatch are, because just taking a Harlequins' kiss or Fusion Pistol basically cancels out the 2W entirely.


That's fair, and something I need to build to test. But my experience so far is dw primaris is playing smoothly for me against other opponents, particularly with SIA. My teams have felt like a good mix of offense and defense. You may be right for now about Primaris being better suited for SM with their tactics, but DW tactics will be coming. I'm going to test my SM primaris next time I get to play though, I'll see how that goes.


I think it's mostly the fact that you can get that sixth man with the SM teams, more so than just the SM tactics.

FOr all the special tactics I have access to, I rarely end up using them over basic stuff like Decisive Shot/Decisive Punch, the level 1 specialist tactics, and rerolls for enemy injury rolls.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Do you think the 6th man is that valuable? I know it increases the breaking point but outside of enemy teams that are rocking more than a couple multi-wound weapons, is it a huge performance increase?
   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




Cheapskate version would be getting First Strike box and paint them black.

Here was a incorrect listing.

Kraken bolts for added range and -1 AP.
Intercessors shooting from afar while reivers wreak havoc on the frontline.

Edit. Corrected errors.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/14 14:29:23


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






pampatus wrote:
Cheapskate version would be getting First Strike box and paint them black.

19 Leader Reiver sargeant with heavy bolt pistol and combat knife
18 Combat Reiver with heavy bolt pistol and combat knife
18 Veteran Reiver with heavy bolt pistol and combat knife
15 Sniper Intercessor with boltgun
15 Intercessor with boltgun
15 Intercessor with boltgun
100 points

Kraken bolts for added range and -1 AP.
Intercessors shooting from afar while reivers wreak havoc on the frontline.


I think you mean 19 for all those intercessors.

2 for the bolt rifle
2 for the bolt pistol.

A 6th man is impossible for Primaris deathwatch - they're all over 17ppm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 14:17:15


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




the_scotsman wrote:


I think you mean 19 for all those intercessors.

2 for the bolt rifle
2 for the bolt pistol.

A 6th man is impossible for Primaris deathwatch - they're all over 17ppm.


My bad. I looked DW weapon chart and Boltgun was 0 points and only after being corrected noticed intercessors use Bolt Rifles. Thanks for the quick heads up!
   
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Been Around the Block




I’ll add my two cents here: having played some games I can safely say that the “Only in Death Does Duty End” tactic is delightful. Out of activation attacks are good in any game, and Kill Team is hardly an exception.

I’ve been running a combi plasma as a bullet catcher for my team and it’s been absolutely fantastic with him. Oh you shot him down? Darn. Guess I’ll overcharge and get some more shots on his way out...
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




THe frag cannon also makes opponents really pay attention to spacing. Or punishes the gak out of players who screw that up. And, importantly, makes the enemy risk being multifragged or not getting bonuses for nerve checks from friendly nearby.

As someone regularly running guard, a good frag cannon shot would roflsweep like half my team, or make me to scared to keep anyone together.

I just put together some deathwatch for a kill team and I made the meta decision to add the xenophase blade on my leader, which pushed me to ALSO take a combi melta as I had 3 points spare. I'll give myself more options when they come out with the big box for death watch.
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






stratigo wrote:
THe frag cannon also makes opponents really pay attention to spacing. Or punishes the gak out of players who screw that up. And, importantly, makes the enemy risk being multifragged or not getting bonuses for nerve checks from friendly nearby.

As someone regularly running guard, a good frag cannon shot would roflsweep like half my team, or make me to scared to keep anyone together.

I just put together some deathwatch for a kill team and I made the meta decision to add the xenophase blade on my leader, which pushed me to ALSO take a combi melta as I had 3 points spare. I'll give myself more options when they come out with the big box for death watch.


if you have 3 points spare I'd always go storm shield over combi-melta, if you're talking about on the Leader here. Leaders get shot at, a lot.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




My leader has a storm shield. My combo melta went on another dude.

Deathwatch is super aggressive a team, so the short range isn’t a huge drawback
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






After a bit of testing, I've concluded that a select few primaris marine types don't seem to be as bad as I initially thought.

-Primaris Gunner with Aux Grenade Launcher and Bolt Rifle. Very solid Demolitions specialist for campaigns when you're looking at extended campaigns. A bit pricy as he starts at 20 points (like all Deathwatch Primaris, really) but once you get him to Grenadier, those Krak grenades are reliable and deadly and the ignores-cover SIA is great to combo with his bolt rifle.

-Reiver sarge with carbine, knife and grav chute. Already knew this one was good, but now I can confirm he's a great leader model having tested him out. Another 20pts.

-Reiver with HBP, grav chute and knife. I was skeptical of them before I learned that the grav chute enabled you to engage a model without charging, and subsequently pop them in the kisser with your wounding on 2s AP-1 bolt pistol. still pricy at 19pt, but a decent non-specialist for your kill team. If you have to make him a specialist, make him a Combat, but I'd save those for vets who get access to more specialist weaponry.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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The new Tactics from the Kill Team Mordecai box appear to be a mixed bag.

Priority Execution - 1CP

Play when you choose a model from your kill team to fight in the fight phase. Add 1 to all wound rolls for the model until the end of the phase.

Death to the Alien - 1CP

Play when you select a model from your kill team to fight in the fight phase. For each hit roll of 5+ that you make against a model without the Imperium, Chaos, or Unaligned keywords, you can immediately make an additional attack roll using the same weapon. These attacks cannot themselves generate additional attacks.

Tactical Disengagement - 1CP

Use when a model from your kill team Retreats. This model may retreat 6" rather than 3" and can still shoot in the shooting phase of this battle round even though it Retreated.

The Beheading - 2CP

Use this tactic at the start of the Fight phase. You may reroll any hit rolls that target the enemy Leader until the end of the phase.

Unrelenting - 1CP

Use this tactic when you select a model to shoot in the shooting phase. it is considered not to have moved in the movement phase.

My Armor is Contempt - 1CP

Use when your model takes one or more mortal wounds. Model gains a 5+ save against mortal wounds for the remainder of the phase.

Trust in your Armor - 1CP

Use at the beginning of your movement phase to treat Barbed Venomgorse as open ground.

Couple good ones, couple situational ones, and a LOT of over-emphasis on the Fight phase, particularly given that we already have Rival Chapters which can be used in the Fight phase as well. The only one of the new ones I can see using is Priority Execution to make sure my powersword wounds or to try and get that 6+ on my HTH.

Tactical Retreat seems like the real winner here, allowing you to play ballsy with your Frag Cannon and then block your enemy's counter assault. That's pretty awesome, especially if you position your frag cannon such that he's really the only viable target.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Been Around the Block




Agreed, though Death to the Alien does have a niche use. If you’re running a Blackshield or Sergeant Combat specialist at level 2 you can trigger it on a 4+. That’s effectively an extra attack for every two attacks you’ve got base, which is pretty impressive. Orks have a tactic for 1 CP that grants 1 attack flat in all situations, as a comparison.

Unrelenting is also pretty great as it allows you to make crucial moves with the Infernus and Frag Cannon that would’ve otherwise been problematic. I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to advance with it either, so you could kite away from enemies.

Between Unrelenting and Tactical Disengagement you should only end up in melee when you want to.
   
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Rivener wrote:
Agreed, though Death to the Alien does have a niche use. If you’re running a Blackshield or Sergeant Combat specialist at level 2 you can trigger it on a 4+. That’s effectively an extra attack for every two attacks you’ve got base, which is pretty impressive. Orks have a tactic for 1 CP that grants 1 attack flat in all situations, as a comparison.

Unrelenting is also pretty great as it allows you to make crucial moves with the Infernus and Frag Cannon that would’ve otherwise been problematic. I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to advance with it either, so you could kite away from enemies.

Between Unrelenting and Tactical Disengagement you should only end up in melee when you want to.


It doesn't say Advance, but then again it also doesn't say Charge.

Charge, Advance, Move, and Ready are four totally different actions in Kill Team, which is why the Eldar don't count as having moved but they also don't count as Readied.

The Frag cannon is an assault weapon though. The only weapon that cares about moving is the infernus bolter...and you could just make him a heavy to have that all the time.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Been Around the Block




Hmm, that’s a good point. I wouldn’t mind a FAQ just so we know the exact value of that tactic. I think the more conservative reading, that it only keeps you from taking a to-hit penalty when moving with an Infernus or Stalker, is the proper one for now.

If it instead permits advancing that would bring some extra value, and if it permits Falling Back or Charging...well then we’re getting into a pretty wacky situation.

I still like it though, since the Infernus is an ace weapon in its own right, and this lets you move and shoot with two of them without penalty if you bring one with the Heavy specialism too.
   
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Poxed Plague Monk





Did DW-KT get some new tactics in the DW Killteam box set?

6k 6k
3k 1k
 
   
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Posts with Authority





 _Ness wrote:
Did DW-KT get some new tactics in the DW Killteam box set?


Oh yes they did.

Some really nasty ones, too.

You can spend 1CP to withdraw 6" instead of 3" and shoot.

You can spend 1CP and add 1 to all wound rolls in the fight phase.

One lets you shrug off a Mortal Wound on a 5+, I believe.

One has exploding dice on a 5+ in the Fight Phase.


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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Flashy Flashgitz





Short stupid question... I see lot of pictures of DW Veteran with 2 power swords. What does it bring in terms of gameplay? I cannot find it in the rule book...
   
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Death-Dealing Devastator




 RedizDead wrote:
Short stupid question... I see lot of pictures of DW Veteran with 2 power swords. What does it bring in terms of gameplay? I cannot find it in the rule book...


You can split your attacks to each of the weapons (so the example used is a Zealot Black Shield, 3 attacks base, zealot add 1 attack and 1 strength when charging), this gives 2 attacks per sword at strength 5 ap -3. As the wounding rules go you only discard extra hits after the model is reduced to 0 wounds on a per weapon basis, so with 2 weapons (assuming they both hit and wound) you can force 2 seperate injury rolls i.e first sword hits once and wounds, injury roll is made and the target suffers a flesh wound. Then the second sword hits and wounds causing a new injury roll (with the appropriate modifier for suffering flesh wounds).

Iirc this is how it should play out but hopefully if I'm wrong someone will clarify ^^
   
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Dakka Veteran





RedizDead wrote:Short stupid question... I see lot of pictures of DW Veteran with 2 power swords. What does it bring in terms of gameplay? I cannot find it in the rule book...


Foxfyre wrote:
 RedizDead wrote:
Short stupid question... I see lot of pictures of DW Veteran with 2 power swords. What does it bring in terms of gameplay? I cannot find it in the rule book...


You can split your attacks to each of the weapons (so the example used is a Zealot Black Shield, 3 attacks base, zealot add 1 attack and 1 strength when charging), this gives 2 attacks per sword at strength 5 ap -3. As the wounding rules go you only discard extra hits after the model is reduced to 0 wounds on a per weapon basis, so with 2 weapons (assuming they both hit and wound) you can force 2 seperate injury rolls i.e first sword hits once and wounds, injury roll is made and the target suffers a flesh wound. Then the second sword hits and wounds causing a new injury roll (with the appropriate modifier for suffering flesh wounds).

Iirc this is how it should play out but hopefully if I'm wrong someone will clarify ^^

Thank you! I'd been wondering all day why you'd take 2 of the same weapon!

Take a look at what I've been painting and modelling: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/725222.page 
   
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Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

craggy wrote:
RedizDead wrote:Short stupid question... I see lot of pictures of DW Veteran with 2 power swords. What does it bring in terms of gameplay? I cannot find it in the rule book...


Foxfyre wrote:
 RedizDead wrote:
Short stupid question... I see lot of pictures of DW Veteran with 2 power swords. What does it bring in terms of gameplay? I cannot find it in the rule book...


You can split your attacks to each of the weapons (so the example used is a Zealot Black Shield, 3 attacks base, zealot add 1 attack and 1 strength when charging), this gives 2 attacks per sword at strength 5 ap -3. As the wounding rules go you only discard extra hits after the model is reduced to 0 wounds on a per weapon basis, so with 2 weapons (assuming they both hit and wound) you can force 2 seperate injury rolls i.e first sword hits once and wounds, injury roll is made and the target suffers a flesh wound. Then the second sword hits and wounds causing a new injury roll (with the appropriate modifier for suffering flesh wounds).

Iirc this is how it should play out but hopefully if I'm wrong someone will clarify ^^

Thank you! I'd been wondering all day why you'd take 2 of the same weapon!


Might want to run that past the rules gurus. I seem to recall something that stops it and makes dual power swords pointless. But I don't have my rulebook nearby and can't locate the thread I am thinking of.

<EDIT>
Found it. pg 32 last paragraph of the dmg characteristic.
"If a model loses its last wound when there are attacks or mortal wounds still allocated to it, these are not resolved."

So once you knock them to 0 wounds you are done swinging. If you are going to go the two powerweaon route get a maul and sword combo. IMO, you are better off with the SS over the second weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/11 04:40:45


 
   
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Death-Dealing Devastator




Might want to run that past the rules gurus. I seem to recall something that stops it and makes dual power swords pointless. But I don't have my rulebook nearby and can't locate the thread I am thinking of.

<EDIT>
Found it. pg 32 last paragraph of the dmg characteristic.
"If a model loses its last wound when there are attacks or mortal wounds still allocated to it, these are not resolved."

So once you knock them to 0 wounds you are done swinging. If you are going to go the two powerweaon route get a maul and sword combo. IMO, you are better off with the SS over the second weapon.


You've missed the actual rule as per page 31 'Inflict Damage'
"...If a model's wounds are reduced to 0, any further attacks directed against this model by the attacking weapon are not resolved, and then the player controlling the attacking model makes an Injury roll for the target model."
(emphasis mine)

The rule you quote is for multi-hit weapons (D3/D6 hits etc.)

   
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Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

Foxfyre wrote:
Might want to run that past the rules gurus. I seem to recall something that stops it and makes dual power swords pointless. But I don't have my rulebook nearby and can't locate the thread I am thinking of.

<EDIT>
Found it. pg 32 last paragraph of the dmg characteristic.
"If a model loses its last wound when there are attacks or mortal wounds still allocated to it, these are not resolved."

So once you knock them to 0 wounds you are done swinging. If you are going to go the two powerweaon route get a maul and sword combo. IMO, you are better off with the SS over the second weapon.


You've missed the actual rule as per page 31 'Inflict Damage'
"...If a model's wounds are reduced to 0, any further attacks directed against this model by the attacking weapon are not resolved, and then the player controlling the attacking model makes an Injury roll for the target model."
(emphasis mine)

The rule you quote is for multi-hit weapons (D3/D6 hits etc.)



Nope did not miss it at all. At the very beginning of the sequence it mentions that the entire sequence is if you choose to roll single dice instead of all at once. See the first paragraph under Resolve attacks on pg 30. So if more attacks are allocated to the model they are lost. However, if you are shooting, and have another weapon, or another model attacks then you restart the entire sequence (see step 4 in the sequence, choose another ranged weapon and target). But melee hits are all allocated at once so you lose them once you wound. Even if you have multiple CC weapons you choose targets and allocate attacks just once. pg 34 step 2. There is no CC step to choose another weapon and allocate more attacks. That only applies to ranged weapons.

I don't disagree that it is all written in a way that is hard to follow and a little confusing. Typical GW rules writing. And they hide that last little bit after the multi damage weapons. It looks like it is supposed to be part of the damage characteristic heading, but it appears to apply to all wounds and specifically calls out other types of wounds and attacks. RAW I think it applies to all wounds, even though most of that section is discussing weapons that do more than 1 point of dmg.

I will be happy to have missed something. I want to be wrong here. :( Having a benefit to having 2 powerswords would definately be cool and the model is awesome. Part of what drew me into DW for KT to begin with.
   
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Death-Dealing Devastator




No, you do all the attacks in sequence and one at a time on a per weapon basis.

So 4 attacks, 2 weapons, split the attacks per weapon. Roll to hit with power sword A - Start the sequence, roll to hit, if it hits roll to wound, if it wounds roll save, if save fails then roll injury (injury roll gets a flesh wound) and discard all further attacks from that weapon as per page 31.
Now proceed to roll to hit with power sword B, sequence begins again, first attack misses, second attack hits, wounds and save is failed, roll injury and take into account the previous result (flesh wound). No more attacks, sequence over.
   
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Dipping With Wood Stain




Sheep Loveland

This is my current list using models converted from the kill team cassius set, so your thoughts gentlemen?


++ Kill Team List (Deathwatch) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Watch Sergeant [16pts]: Boltgun, Leader

+ Specialists +

Veteran [17pts]: Combi-melta, Comms

Veteran [16pts]: Boltgun, Combat, Power sword

Veteran Gunner [21pts]: Deathwatch frag cannon, Demolitions

+ Non-specialists +

Veteran [15pts]: Stalker pattern boltgun

Veteran [15pts]: Deathwatch shotgun

++ Total: [100pts] ++

The idea is to have the leader hang back with the Stalker bolt gun marine close by as back up, and the combat specialist charging up with the shotgun marine for a close hitting punch. The Frag cannon is a self contained fire base and the combi-melta commas will stay close to either the leader group or Combat group to give the +1 to hit.

40k: Thousand Sons World Eaters
30k: Imperial Fists 405th Company 
   
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Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

Foxfyre wrote:
No, you do all the attacks in sequence and one at a time on a per weapon basis.

So 4 attacks, 2 weapons, split the attacks per weapon. Roll to hit with power sword A - Start the sequence, roll to hit, if it hits roll to wound, if it wounds roll save, if save fails then roll injury (injury roll gets a flesh wound) and discard all further attacks from that weapon as per page 31.
Now proceed to roll to hit with power sword B, sequence begins again, first attack misses, second attack hits, wounds and save is failed, roll injury and take into account the previous result (flesh wound). No more attacks, sequence over.


where on pg 31 does it say to discard attacks from that weapon only? ranged attacks you repeat the sequence for each weapon. It doesn't say that for CC that I see. All CC attacks are allocated at once.
   
 
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