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The Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, since he talked with Oll Persson (one of the ancient Perpetuals) outside of Nineveh on Old Earth. He is probably human. But who could know the truth but the Emperor? And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth [u]
Oll takes out his compass, and checks the bearing as best he can. Thrascias. It still seems to be Thrascias. That used to be the word for the wind from the north-north-west, before the cardinal points of the compass rose were co-opted for other purposes and given more esoteric meanings. Thrascias. That's what the Grekans called it. That's what they called it when he sailed back across the sun-kissed waters to Thessaly in Iason's crew, with a witch and a sheep-skin to show for their efforts. The Romanii, they called it Circius. Down in the oardecks of the galleys, he hadn't much cared about the names of the winds they were rowing against. The Franks called it Nordvuestroni. - Know No Fear, pages 360 and 361.
You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
I learned that the General discussion is a place to post stuff that would be off-topic in other forums, and this looks to be the place to post it. But thanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 01:22:52
BrianDavion wrote: You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
I learned that the General discussion is a place to post stuff that would be off-topic in other forums, and this looks to be the place to post it. But thanks.
This is most certainly ON topic in the lore thread titled: 'Background' so kinda doesn't belong here. This is not a criticism but you would definitely get more traction in the background forum.
What is the point of your post? You've clearly done you research here which is awesome. Are you asking, What is the emperor?
What is DAOT tech?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 11:25:12
Presumably Dark Age of Techology tech so basically idea that Emperor would be product from Dark Age of Technology age of 40k(was it around 20k?). So either artificially built life form or human that was artificially boosted by technology. At least that's what I thought reading it
BrianDavion wrote: You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
I learned that the General discussion is a place to post stuff that would be off-topic in other forums, and this looks to be the place to post it. But thanks.
This is most certainly ON topic in the lore thread titled: 'Background' so kinda doesn't belong here. This is not a criticism but you would definitely get more traction in the background forum.
What is the point of your post? You've clearly done you research here which is awesome. Are you asking, What is the emperor?
What is DAOT tech?
Alright. I'm new here and getting used to it, but this seemed to be the right place.
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 15:03:04
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want them to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
He is not lying. Dan Abnett's Perpetual Oll Persson alone proves it. Your'e ignoring the lore. And the Perpetuals are actually well-written.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/17 15:26:45
There's a fun theory in the lore subthread about the Emperor being an Old One.
I also posted a counter-theory that the Emperor is actually Morag-Hai, but that's really just a fun theory that would explain things, but is almost certainly not wrong - in the same vein as "everyone you work with goes out for drinks on Friday, but they all agree not to tell you" - could be true, but probably isn't.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Everything in 40k is told from unreliable narrators. And the Perpetuals are well-written. I read the books with them.
What the hell are you babbling on about? The Perpetuals are not that at all. They are "official" as everything else is. By that logic, everything is the same. I know there is no such thing as canon, but that's not the point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: There's a fun theory in the lore subthread about the Emperor being an Old One.
I also posted a counter-theory that the Emperor is actually Morag-Hai, but that's really just a fun theory that would explain things, but is almost certainly not wrong - in the same vein as "everyone you work with goes out for drinks on Friday, but they all agree not to tell you" - could be true, but probably isn't.
If the Emperor is a Perpetual (as he said to Perpetual Oll Persson) then he is not an Old One. And we have his shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/08/17 15:45:57
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: If all lore is equal then Ollaius Pius saying that the Emps is a Perpetual human is no more correct than other lore that says otherwise.
The Horus Heresy novels show that with Dan Abnett' Perpetual Oll Persson. And where does it say otherwise? The story with the old Pius Guardsman? Not good. Its not contradicted by anything except the lore about the old Pius Guardsman. And his name Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson.
Everything is equally true.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 15:52:29
What lore says that only humans can be Perpetuals (actual question)?
As for the shaman origin story, that could be a ruse - either to eliminate competition or witnesses as the Emperor arose, or to trick them into giving the Old One or Morag Hai all their power.
Bharring wrote: What lore says that only humans can be Perpetuals (actual question)?
As for the shaman origin story, that could be a ruse - either to eliminate competition or witnesses as the Emperor arose, or to trick them into giving the Old One or Morag Hai all their power.
Its not a ruse. But its lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: If all lore is equal then Ollaius Pius saying that the Emps is a Perpetual human is no more correct than other lore that says otherwise.
The Horus Heresy novels show that with Dan Abnett' Perpetual Oll Persson. And where does it say otherwise? The story with the old Pius Guardsman? Not good. Its not contradicted by anything except the lore about the old Pius Guardsman. And his name Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson.
Everything is equally true.
Ok, this is a bit long, but its Aaron Dembski-Bowden reply for the criticisms he got for his portrayal of Emps in 'Master of Mankind'
Spoiler:
That's true, and I definitely wanted to bring out a better understanding of his vision and what he was up against, but that's also lore I'd wager anyone with a deep knowledge of the setting already had a handle on to some degree, whether explicitly or not. What I wanted to avoid was too much "new" stuff. You have to put in something new, and thankfully what little newness I do introduce in my work is seemingly well-regarded, but I've always said our job (as I see it) is to illustrate the setting and show what it's like to live there, not to set it in stone. As much as the fandom adores "advancing the storyline", it's not something that interests me, by and large. I try my best to show things from the perspectives of characters on the ground level, bring a few perceptions of the setting through the lens of my own imagination and the insight I'm lucky enough to get endlessly talking about the setting with its creators and inheritors, and then get out. Most of my books are, to some extent, not definitive. They're about Some Guy, not the entire faction.
Grimaldus in Helsreach has no bond to the wider war on Armageddon and hates that he's been left behind by the Black Templars, but he's (hopefully) a good example of what it feels like to be a Black Templar, and to think like one, and - crucially - what it feels like to be a human around them. Talos and the other characters of First Claw spend a trilogy unable to decide what the Night Lords Legion really was, and each of them remembers their glory days differently. I didn't want to speak for the whole Legion. Hyperion in The Emperor's Gift is a largely generic Grey Knight present in dire circumstances. HH-wise, I didn't want to show all of the Word Bearers and base a book around the expectations of Kor Phaeron, Lorgar, and Erebus, so I focused on the Serrated Sun in the middle of the changes taking place across the galaxy. Savage Weapons is largely about Corswain, not about Curze and the Lion. The Master of Mankind is about Ra, Zephon, Jaya, and Land in the heart of the Emperor's plans for the species, not about the Emperor himself. As much as I wrote about Angron and Lorgar, they get significantly less in-their-heads screen time than most other primarchs in most other books.
It's harder to do that with the Heresy, but - again - I do my best to present individual experiences and mindsets in characters like Khârn, Argel Tal, and Ra, rather than definitive looks at the entire Chapter/Legion/faction and setting its events in stone. I try to present a feel for how it is to live inside that culture and be part of the experiences they go through; it's about immersion into the Chapter or Legion, presenting them as believable and real, not definitively saying "All of Chapter X are like Y." So: I'm reluctant to talk about TMoM and the Emperor's perception in that book in any real detail, partly because the book is still new and there's a lot individual readers would do better discovering for themselves without my thoughts in public, and partly because everything I'd say is ultimately in the book. Anything I say will be taken out of context or weaponised one way or another somewhere, and used in a way that makes me sigh, cringe, or a dramatic melange of both that shall hereafter be called the sigh-cringe. (Plus, most of all, I have faith in readers. They don't need me defining anything, even if it might be interesting for a few peeps.)
So, I'll just say this. The Master of Mankind is entirely from the perspectives of people that meet the Emperor in pretty specific circumstances. There are, obviously, other circumstances to come. Nothing in it is definitive, even less so than my usual work. Any definitive statement you can make about how the Emperor sees something or does something is almost always contradicted in the book itself. That's not an escape clause or an excuse. It's the point. Writing him definitively would've been the easiest and most disappointing thing in the world. (And on that note, remember, everyone views 40K differently. What Person X is absolutely certain is the truth of the Emperor and the best way to present him would be laughed off by Persons A, B, and C. The flip side to that is that not every perspective is founded in fact or understanding. The earliest "I've not read this yet, but..." criticisms and misunderstandings of TMoM in, ah, certain reddit/chan-style locations was regarded by GW IP folks as, I quote: "These angry people seem to be beholden to a version of 40K that has never existed...") But in all seriousness, I don't want to delve too deeply into explaining the ways the Emperor's contradictions matter or don't matter. They're there, and they're definitely formative - totally agree - if not exactly definitive. With the Emperor, a lot of interaction is about getting out what you put in. You get what you give. Your perceptions and expectations are reflected back on you because that's how the human brain perceives everything (a fact that cannot be overstated; the science behind it is fascinating and all-important), especially when you're talking about someone who exists on that plane of power. At one point the Emperor makes mention of the notion that he's not even speaking, that being near to him allows the conveyance of meaning through psychic osmosis, and communication telepathically. He's not even talking. It's raw understanding filtering through a mind, or just the way the mortal mind comprehends the aura of what the Emperor intends, or, or, or... That's what I mean. TMoM is littered with that stuff. Does he only address the primarchs by number instead of name? Some characters will swear he does that, and doesn't that just perfectly match their perspectives of the primarchs as either emotionally-compromised "too-human" things that think they're sons (Ra), or genetic masterworks that have become galaxy-damning screw-ups that have literally let the galaxy burn and brought the Imperium to its knees, leading people to be exiled from their homeworlds (Land). Do you think Sanguinius will agree? Or care that's what mortals think? The Emperor's portrayal on that isn't even consistent between Ra and Diocletian, two of his Custodians - and on PAGE ONE, the only time he interacts with a primarch himself, and the one and only thing he says to Magnus the Red is...? "Magnus."
Like... that's a pretty strong indication that the interactions which follow are playing by different rules. Ra sees the Warlord of Humanity, just a man, but a great mean, weary and defiant, burdened by responsibility. Daemons see their annihilation, and go insane in his presence. One of the Knights, as they're marching through the Throne Room, is caught in religious rapture, unable to do anything but stare at the glorious halo of the Emperor of Mankind on the Golden Throne. One of the Sisters of Silence, in the same room, literally just sees a man in a chair. Another character, not Imperial, asks a Custodian if the Emperor even breathes. She believes he's a weapon left out of its box from the Dark Age of Technology. (With thanks to Alan Bligh for that one, he adores that theory.) So I don't think it's exactly a spoiler to say that if and when I get to write a character like Sanguinius in the Emperor's presence, or Malcador, they'd have entirely different experiences than Ra and Land. I'd loved to have had that in TMoM, but as much as it would've given wider context, these aren't rulebooks and essays; it would've been self-indulgent for the sake of 'hoping people get it', and cheapened the story being told, which was ultimately in a very narrow and confined set of circumstances. Breaking out of that narrative would be offering a sense of scope and freedom I was specifically trying to avoid in a claustrophobic siege story. Because theme and atmosphere is a thing.
TL: DR GW leaves Emperors origin a mystery.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 16:08:46
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: If all lore is equal then Ollaius Pius saying that the Emps is a Perpetual human is no more correct than other lore that says otherwise.
The Horus Heresy novels show that with Dan Abnett' Perpetual Oll Persson. And where does it say otherwise? The story with the old Pius Guardsman? Not good. Its not contradicted by anything except the lore about the old Pius Guardsman. And his name Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson.
Everything is equally true.
Ok, this is a bit long, but its Aaron Dembski-Bowden reply for the criticisms he got for his portrayal of Emps in 'Master of Mankind'
Spoiler:
That's true, and I definitely wanted to bring out a better understanding of his vision and what he was up against, but that's also lore I'd wager anyone with a deep knowledge of the setting already had a handle on to some degree, whether explicitly or not. What I wanted to avoid was too much "new" stuff. You have to put in something new, and thankfully what little newness I do introduce in my work is seemingly well-regarded, but I've always said our job (as I see it) is to illustrate the setting and show what it's like to live there, not to set it in stone. As much as the fandom adores "advancing the storyline", it's not something that interests me, by and large. I try my best to show things from the perspectives of characters on the ground level, bring a few perceptions of the setting through the lens of my own imagination and the insight I'm lucky enough to get endlessly talking about the setting with its creators and inheritors, and then get out. Most of my books are, to some extent, not definitive. They're about Some Guy, not the entire faction.
Grimaldus in Helsreach has no bond to the wider war on Armageddon and hates that he's been left behind by the Black Templars, but he's (hopefully) a good example of what it feels like to be a Black Templar, and to think like one, and - crucially - what it feels like to be a human around them. Talos and the other characters of First Claw spend a trilogy unable to decide what the Night Lords Legion really was, and each of them remembers their glory days differently. I didn't want to speak for the whole Legion. Hyperion in The Emperor's Gift is a largely generic Grey Knight present in dire circumstances. HH-wise, I didn't want to show all of the Word Bearers and base a book around the expectations of Kor Phaeron, Lorgar, and Erebus, so I focused on the Serrated Sun in the middle of the changes taking place across the galaxy. Savage Weapons is largely about Corswain, not about Curze and the Lion. The Master of Mankind is about Ra, Zephon, Jaya, and Land in the heart of the Emperor's plans for the species, not about the Emperor himself. As much as I wrote about Angron and Lorgar, they get significantly less in-their-heads screen time than most other primarchs in most other books.
It's harder to do that with the Heresy, but - again - I do my best to present individual experiences and mindsets in characters like Khârn, Argel Tal, and Ra, rather than definitive looks at the entire Chapter/Legion/faction and setting its events in stone. I try to present a feel for how it is to live inside that culture and be part of the experiences they go through; it's about immersion into the Chapter or Legion, presenting them as believable and real, not definitively saying "All of Chapter X are like Y." So: I'm reluctant to talk about TMoM and the Emperor's perception in that book in any real detail, partly because the book is still new and there's a lot individual readers would do better discovering for themselves without my thoughts in public, and partly because everything I'd say is ultimately in the book. Anything I say will be taken out of context or weaponised one way or another somewhere, and used in a way that makes me sigh, cringe, or a dramatic melange of both that shall hereafter be called the sigh-cringe. (Plus, most of all, I have faith in readers. They don't need me defining anything, even if it might be interesting for a few peeps.)
So, I'll just say this. The Master of Mankind is entirely from the perspectives of people that meet the Emperor in pretty specific circumstances. There are, obviously, other circumstances to come. Nothing in it is definitive, even less so than my usual work. Any definitive statement you can make about how the Emperor sees something or does something is almost always contradicted in the book itself. That's not an escape clause or an excuse. It's the point. Writing him definitively would've been the easiest and most disappointing thing in the world. (And on that note, remember, everyone views 40K differently. What Person X is absolutely certain is the truth of the Emperor and the best way to present him would be laughed off by Persons A, B, and C. The flip side to that is that not every perspective is founded in fact or understanding. The earliest "I've not read this yet, but..." criticisms and misunderstandings of TMoM in, ah, certain reddit/chan-style locations was regarded by GW IP folks as, I quote: "These angry people seem to be beholden to a version of 40K that has never existed...") But in all seriousness, I don't want to delve too deeply into explaining the ways the Emperor's contradictions matter or don't matter. They're there, and they're definitely formative - totally agree - if not exactly definitive. With the Emperor, a lot of interaction is about getting out what you put in. You get what you give. Your perceptions and expectations are reflected back on you because that's how the human brain perceives everything (a fact that cannot be overstated; the science behind it is fascinating and all-important), especially when you're talking about someone who exists on that plane of power. At one point the Emperor makes mention of the notion that he's not even speaking, that being near to him allows the conveyance of meaning through psychic osmosis, and communication telepathically. He's not even talking. It's raw understanding filtering through a mind, or just the way the mortal mind comprehends the aura of what the Emperor intends, or, or, or... That's what I mean. TMoM is littered with that stuff. Does he only address the primarchs by number instead of name? Some characters will swear he does that, and doesn't that just perfectly match their perspectives of the primarchs as either emotionally-compromised "too-human" things that think they're sons (Ra), or genetic masterworks that have become galaxy-damning screw-ups that have literally let the galaxy burn and brought the Imperium to its knees, leading people to be exiled from their homeworlds (Land). Do you think Sanguinius will agree? Or care that's what mortals think? The Emperor's portrayal on that isn't even consistent between Ra and Diocletian, two of his Custodians - and on PAGE ONE, the only time he interacts with a primarch himself, and the one and only thing he says to Magnus the Red is...? "Magnus."
Like... that's a pretty strong indication that the interactions which follow are playing by different rules. Ra sees the Warlord of Humanity, just a man, but a great mean, weary and defiant, burdened by responsibility. Daemons see their annihilation, and go insane in his presence. One of the Knights, as they're marching through the Throne Room, is caught in religious rapture, unable to do anything but stare at the glorious halo of the Emperor of Mankind on the Golden Throne. One of the Sisters of Silence, in the same room, literally just sees a man in a chair. Another character, not Imperial, asks a Custodian if the Emperor even breathes. She believes he's a weapon left out of its box from the Dark Age of Technology. (With thanks to Alan Bligh for that one, he adores that theory.) So I don't think it's exactly a spoiler to say that if and when I get to write a character like Sanguinius in the Emperor's presence, or Malcador, they'd have entirely different experiences than Ra and Land. I'd loved to have had that in TMoM, but as much as it would've given wider context, these aren't rulebooks and essays; it would've been self-indulgent for the sake of 'hoping people get it', and cheapened the story being told, which was ultimately in a very narrow and confined set of circumstances. Breaking out of that narrative would be offering a sense of scope and freedom I was specifically trying to avoid in a claustrophobic siege story. Because theme and atmosphere is a thing.
TL: DR GW leaves Emperors origin a mystery.
I talked with ADB on Reddit, and he said we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. Plus, the shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it is there.
And you realize that character in Master of Mankind did know the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant? When you look at the Emperor, you see what he wants you to see. He is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant. And she was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff like that.
The Perpetuals disprove what she said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 16:15:32
That's alright, but they prove my point about the Emperor, and are just as much as part of the lore as anything else. The Perpetuals are well-written after I read the Horus Heresy books.
Perpetuals aren't some infallible source of facts, nothing is in 40k - thats part of the 40k universe, every possiblity can be correct one, if there even is one and not all information given is absolute.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: Perpetuals aren't some infallible source of facts, nothing is in 40k - thats part of the 40k universe, every possiblity can be correct one, if there even is one and not all information given is absolute.
That's the whole point of 40k, so we can interpret the setting as we wish. But taking the books at face value, the Perpetuals prove it.
And what Zo about the Emperor in Master of Mankind is about as reliable as what Erebus said about the Emperor in False Gods (about him wanting to be a God). She was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 16:32:47
That's alright, but they prove my point about the Emperor, and are just as much as part of the lore as anything else. The Perpetuals are well-written after I read the Horus Heresy books.
They're not well written. Black Library books generally aren't. They're at the best mediocre books. They're also full of utterly stupid nonsense, and often contradict the studio lore and each other. Then again, recently the studio fluff has gone to hell in a handbasked too, so I really don't care that much anymore.
But the bottom line is that 40K lore is not some coherent whole. It is just collection of stories which often contradict eac hother. Sure, certain basic facts are the same, but it is really not a single continuity. Trying to reconcile it all is like trying to reconcile Nolan's Batman Films, Burton's Batman films, the Gotham TV show and the Batman comics.
That's alright, but they prove my point about the Emperor, and are just as much as part of the lore as anything else. The Perpetuals are well-written after I read the Horus Heresy books.
They're not well written. Black Library books generally aren't. They're at the best mediocre books. They're also full of utterly stupid nonsense, and often contradict the studio lore and each other. Then again, recently the studio fluff has gone to hell in a handbasked too, so I really don't care that much anymore.
But the bottom line is that 40K lore is not some coherent whole. It is just collection of stories which often contradict eac hother. Sure, certain basic facts are the same, but it is really not a single continuity. Trying to reconcile it all is like trying to reconcile Nolan's Batman Films, Burton's Batman films, the Gotham TV show and the Batman comics.
There are many people have read the books that disagree with you. My friend (Gankom) on Reddit agrees. Its your opinion they aren't.
So, your headcanon is that the lore should be taken at face value, fine - but, trying to argue that that's somehow more correct than other people view is wrong. No interpretations is wrong.
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 16:39:05
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
Yep, this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 16:41:49
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
Yep, this.
It not bad taste. Its about opinions.
Have Games Workshop won literary awards?
Mortal Pius was only in old fluff.
There is no such thing as canon in 40k, but the Perpetuals are there.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: So, your headcanon is that the lore should be taken at face value, fine - but, trying to argue that that's somehow more correct than other people view is wrong. No interpretations is wrong.
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
I never said it should be taken at face value, I'm saying there IF we do, then the Perpetuals prove it.
