Space Wolves Psychic Power (Spoilers)

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**Yarium**

Hey there folks!

Was just looking at today's codex preview for the Space Wolves up on Warhammer Community. Noticed this power...

From the power's wording, the Rune Priest becomes armed with this weapon. By the wording, when the Rune Priest makes attacks, "you can attack with Freki and Geri" to make 6 additional attacks. But... after making those attacks, there's nothing to stop you from making 6 additional attacks AGAIN. And again... and again! Would that be the RAW? I know they wouldn't give a WC7 power for "get infinite attacks, therefore kill anything you're in combat with", so the obvious intent here is that you can only make one bonus set of additional attacks. But still.

**JohnnyHell**

The intent is overwhelmingly obvious as you say, so don't be that guy..

**Valkyrie**

BCB, you've gone Canadian!

Edit: Can we actually do something about these YMCD threads that don't have a purpose besides "Look at this RAW exploit, I'm so smart and edgy"

**ChargerIIC**

Yarium wrote:
Hey there folks!

Was just looking at today's codex preview for the Space Wolves up on Warhammer Community. Noticed this power...

Spoiler:

From the power's wording, the Rune Priest becomes armed with this weapon. By the wording, when the Rune Priest makes attacks, "you can attack with Freki and Geri" to make 6 additional attacks. But... after making those attacks, there's nothing to stop you from making 6 additional attacks AGAIN. And again... and again! Would that be the RAW? I know they wouldn't give a WC7 power for "get infinite attacks, therefore kill anything you're in combat with", so the obvious intent here is that you can only make one bonus set of additional attacks. But still.

You'd have to activate the psychic power again, which you can only cast it once per phase so it's a no go unless you want to get to BCB levels of Rules As Desired to Make GW Look Bad.

**JohnnyHell**

Valkyrie wrote:
BCB, you've gone Canadian!

Edit: Can we actually do something about these YMCD threads that don't have a purpose besides "Look at this RAW exploit, I'm so smart and edgy"

Oh if only...

**Yarium**

Valkyrie wrote:
Edit: Can we actually do something about these YMCD threads that don't have a purpose besides "Look at this RAW exploit, I'm so smart and edgy"

Good idea! We should definitely title things; "Exploit?" for such posts

**Galef**

I don't think I get it.
You attack with the Rune priests (with his number of attacks) using Freaky and Jerry as weapons, then Freaky and Jerry get to attack themselves with 6 attacks. Both use the S5 ap-3 profile
I don't see any other way to interpret the rule.

-

**Yarium**

Galef wrote:
I don't think I get it.
You attack with the Rune priests (with his number of attacks) using Freaky and Jerry as weapons, then Freaky and Jerry get to attack themselves with 6 attacks. Both use the S5 ap-3 profile
I don't see any other way to interpret the rule.

-

It has to be the Rune Priest making the attacks, otherwise Freki and Geri don't have a Weapon Skill with which to make attacks. When you select a weapon to attack with, you select Freki and Geri, so when the ability states "you can attack with Freki and Geri", that means you're attacking using Freki and Geri as the weapon you are attacking with, as per Step #4 in the Fight Phase.

**Captyn_Bob**

Galef wrote:
I don't think I get it.
You attack with the Rune priests (with his number of attacks) using Freaky and Jerry as weapons, then Freaky and Jerry get to attack themselves with 6 attacks. Both use the S5 ap-3 profile
I don't see any other way to interpret the rule.

-

I do...

He can attack with freki and geri "after making his close combat attacks" this implicitly suggests he isn't allowed to do so before, and should attack with his normal attacks with other weapons.
The wording isn't tight enough for this to be explicit, but id wager that is the intent.

**Yarium**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I do...

He can attack with freki and geri "after making his close combat attacks" this implicitly suggests he isn't allowed to do so before, and should attack with his normal attacks with other weapons.
The wording isn't tight enough for this to be explicit, but id wager that is the intent.

Now there's where I'm not so sure. The Rune Priest gains Freki and Geri as a weapon, so, rather than using his Rune Staff or Force Staff or whatever, the Rune Priest could select Freaky (there's gotta be a better shorthand) as the weapon he'll attack with.

**JohnnyHell**

There is no confusion short of trying to create it. The intent is clear. If you believe the RAW doesn't match email the FAQ hotline to ask them to tighten things up. Their mistake was calling this a weapon not an ability, but it's not really insurmountable or threadworthy.

**Yarium**

I know the intent isn't to allow infinite attacks, but I do think Captyn_Bob has caught onto something where the intent isn't clear. Is the intent that the Rune Priest must attack with other weapons, and then gets some bonus attacks at the profile listed? Or is the intent that the Rune Priest can attack with Freaky, and then also gets bonus attacks with it? That's a valid RAI question.

**JohnnyHell**

Yarium wrote:
I know the intent isn't to allow infinite attacks, but I do think Captyn_Bob has caught onto something where the intent isn't clear. Is the intent that the Rune Priest must attack with other weapons, and then gets some bonus attacks at the profile listed? Or is the intent that the Rune Priest can attack with Freaky, and then also gets bonus attacks with it? That's a valid RAI question.

Not really. The intent is obviously attack normally then use these bonus attacks.

**Galef**

Freakin' Jerry is the shorthand that's most appropriate.

I'd say you attack with the Rune Priest using his normal attack first (either using Frekin Geri's profile or a different weapon), then you make 6 attacks with the profile

**Tibs Ironblood**

I'd say you could very well choose to use your profile attacks with Freaky Jerry then get the six attacks on top of that afterwards. It is entirely legal to do so and say otherwise would be based on a RAI argument. You gain the weapon in the psychic phase. In the fight phase you select a weapon to attack with. You select Freaky Jerry. You attack with Freaky Jerry. Then after you resolve your attacks the ability of freaky jerry comes into effect and you make six more attacks using freaky jerry.

**p5freak**

The rune priest makes all his regular melee attacks, and after that he makes 6 attacks with freki and greki with his WS. He cannot fight anymore because a model cannot fight twice in the same fight phase, unless a special rule says otherwise. Freki and greki is a special rule, allowing him to fight again with that weapon.

**Elbows**

Valkyrie wrote:
BCB, you've gone Canadian!

Edit: Can we actually do something about these YMCD threads that don't have a purpose besides "Look at this RAW exploit, I'm so smart and edgy"

This. 1000x this. I suppose you could just start reporting posts like it.

**Rhomen**

Yarium wrote:
Hey there folks!

Was just looking at today's codex preview for the Space Wolves up on Warhammer Community. Noticed this power...

From the power's wording, the Rune Priest becomes armed with this weapon. By the wording, when the Rune Priest makes attacks, "you can attack with Freki and Geri" to make 6 additional attacks. But... after making those attacks, there's nothing to stop you from making 6 additional attacks AGAIN. And again... and again! Would that be the RAW? I know they wouldn't give a WC7 power for "get infinite attacks, therefore kill anything you're in combat with", so the obvious intent here is that you can only make one bonus set of additional attacks. But still.

The way I read this is, The Rune Priest makes his usual attacks, and then after wounds and saves alocated he can make 6 additional attacks with Freki and Geri profile.

Or you can take the "That guy" approach about it...

**Eihnlazer**

Would have been so much simpler for them to say: "Freki and Geri grant 6 additional attacks using their profile".

**Lance845**

Elbows wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:
BCB, you've gone Canadian!

Edit: Can we actually do something about these YMCD threads that don't have a purpose besides "Look at this RAW exploit, I'm so smart and edgy"

This. 1000x this. I suppose you could just start reporting posts like it.

Report it for what exactly? What rule is being broken that you need to alert a mod? Clarifying potential exploits certainly falls under the purview of ymdc.

**BaconCatBug**

Some people are just angry the game doesn't work they way they want it to work I suppose.

I disagree that this causes an infinite loop, due to how the English language works. The attacks are being made by Freki and Geri, not the Rune Priest. It's the same wording as all other Mount weapons so far.

**Valkyrie**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Some people are just angry the game doesn't work they way they want it to work I suppose.

Good job putting words into peoples' mouths.

**Yarium**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Some people are just angry the game doesn't work they way they want it to work I suppose.

I disagree that this causes an infinite loop, due to how the English language works. The attacks are being made by Freki and Geri, not the Rune Priest. It's the same wording as all other Mount weapons so far.

But in that case, what is freaking Jerry's WS? What does freaking Jerry hit on? The English language could work that way, but without that information we must assume that the sentence means "the Rune Priest attacks again, for 6 attacks, using Freaking Jerry".

And it's all good folks, I'm not insulted or anything. I think that all far this is a very level headed and genial discussion of something we can agree, but the discussion is also helping to discover the true intent, which I think is still in doubt. For example, if it's Freaking Jerry making the attacks, and the Rune Priest has a bonus ability that triggers on hit or wound rolls of 6, would Freaking Jerry get that bonus? Is Freaking Jerry within range of aura abilities that the Rune Priest is in range of, because Freaking Jerry doesn't have a model.

**DeathReaper**

You can not cause an infinite loop because RAW "After the Rune Priest makes his close combat attacks" is clearly referring to the Attacks value on the Rune Priest's Datasheet.

Therefore, since the RP can only make as many attacks as his datasheet specifies, then you only get to use the After the Rune Priest makes his close combat attacks" rule once.

Not infinite as that does not make grammatical sense.

**Garrlor**

The rune priest makes his 3 attacks with his runic axe (s5, ap-2,d3) at ws 2+ before making 6 attacks with his 2 phantasmal ghost wolves using his Ws and thier damage profile.

Its not particulary breaking in any way, it might help squish a guard squad in one turn. And to my mind the wording is clear for the way the attacks are made, in which order.

For comparison, it is the same as if he was riding a thunderwolf with a double barreled name!

**Valkyrie**

Why is this even being discussed? Is someone out there actually going to try to argue that you can use this in an infinite loop and actually kill any unit in the game through sheer number of attacks?

**p5freak**

Its discussed because it has become a sport to take every word of a GW rule literally.

**BaconCatBug**

It's discussed because when silly things like "Re-rolls before modifiers" and "being 99.9999% obscured isn't enough to benefit from cover" are enshrined in RaW and "RaI", when GW in one breath says "Ignore the rules, no movement after arriving from reinforcements" and then in the very next breath says "except for charging, that movement is fine", no-one has any clue anymore what is and isn't "intended" just based off whether it "feels" right or not.

**Yarium**

Here's the email I sent to GW's FAQ team. We'll see what comes of it:

Good morning 40k FAQ team!

Got a few questions regarding the new psychic power that grants a Space Wolf Rune Priest the weapon "Freki & Geri". The power states that the model becomes armed with them as a weapon, and that after the Rune Priest attacks, Freki & Geri make 6 bonus attacks. This has led to some confusion:

#1 - Can a Rune Priest make his attacks using Freki & Geri as a weapon, before the bonus attacks?
#2 - Does the Rune Priest make the bonus attacks for Freki & Geri, or do Freki & Geri make the bonus attacks on their own? If the latter, do Freki & Geri use the Weapon Skill of the Rune Priest for their attacks, and do they benefit from any effects affecting the Rune Priest (such as reroll auras, or Death to Traitors! stratagem)?
#3 - Are these bonus attacks capable of themselves generating extra attacks (such as through the Death to Traitors! stratagem, or even by the weapon's own ability)?

Thank you for reviewing these.

Sincerely,

**BaconCatBug**

Yarium wrote:
Here's the email I sent to GW's FAQ team. We'll see what comes of it:

Good morning 40k FAQ team!

Got a few questions regarding the new psychic power that grants a Space Wolf Rune Priest the weapon "Freki & Geri". The power states that the model becomes armed with them as a weapon, and that after the Rune Priest attacks, Freki & Geri make 6 bonus attacks. This has led to some confusion:

#1 - Can a Rune Priest make his attacks using Freki & Geri as a weapon, before the bonus attacks?
#2 - Does the Rune Priest make the bonus attacks for Freki & Geri, or do Freki & Geri make the bonus attacks on their own? If the latter, do Freki & Geri use the Weapon Skill of the Rune Priest for their attacks, and do they benefit from any effects affecting the Rune Priest (such as reroll auras, or Death to Traitors! stratagem)?
#3 - Are these bonus attacks capable of themselves generating extra attacks (such as through the Death to Traitors! stratagem, or even by the weapon's own ability)?

Thank you for reviewing these.

Sincerely,

I got a reply:

Dear BaconCatBug,

We at Games Workshop have decided that you are the final authority for all rules questions.

Best Regards,
GW Rules Team.

Emails from GW are not permitted in YMDC. The above is a sarcasitc response as to the ease of forging an email from GW.

To answer your questions:

1) No, the weapon explicitly says you use F&G after the Rune Priests attacks.
2) They are treated as any other CCW. You use the Rune Priests Weapon Skill, the Weapons Strength, AP, Damage and special rules. They are no different to Thunderwolf mount special weapons, for example.
3) They can generate bonus attacks because they themselves are not "bonus attacks" caused by a stratagem or special rule. They are just a special CCW.