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So it is currently underwhelming. One idea i thought about trying out was making flamers and any other weapons this suits have the following auto hit ability.

1D6/half the models in range in the target unit are hit.

2D6/All the models in range in the target unit are hit.

Thoughts? Making it an anti horde weapon but still able to hose individual models with several shots.

Making the Flamer just 5 points again with Ignores Cover would go a far way to make it slightly more attractive.

Perhaps, though it doesn't seem to be an anti horde weapon as I feel it should be.

So if I have 30 Conscripts in range, all 30 are hit? That's a bit much. You also haven't taken into account other such weapons, as there are ones which use D3, 3D6 and even 4D6 shots.

 Valkyrie wrote:
So if I have 30 Conscripts in range, all 30 are hit? That's a bit much. You also haven't taken into account other such weapons, as there are ones which use D3, 3D6 and even 4D6 shots.

Yep. That's ridiculous. Yesterday having charged into IG veteran squad with my grots their flamers would have thus caused what...80 hits? Yeeeeeaaah...That's "bit" too much. Any unit with multiple flamers would be basically unchargeable.

Could you get 30 conscripts in range of 2 flamers to give them 1 hit each?

Certainly not a good idea to charge with a horde, but they are vulnerable to small elite units that would dance through or simply barge through the wall of flames.

You could temper this with a "always hits on an N+", to taper it down.

Alterantely, the profile caps the number of hits, and up the profile. So Flamers are 2d6, capped at number of models in the target unit.

This comes up a lot, actually.

Or, we could drop the whole idea that flamers are meant to be anti-horde because they really aren't. At least not more so than a heavy stubber. Instead, flamers were created and employed to clear trenches and bunkers, something a heavy stubber would struggle with, so give them bonuses against units in cover.

That is true, thought it would be pretty niche (unit doesn't get its +1 armour) given how many models carry the weapon...

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Could you get 30 conscripts in range of 2 flamers to give them 1 hit each?

Certainly not a good idea to charge with a horde, but they are vulnerable to small elite units that would dance through or simply barge through the wall of flames.

Assuming you're about 1" away from the closest enemy model with the enemy unit in a 2-models-deep rectangle or line formation, you're looking at roughly a 14" + the width of your own model's base diamter threat circle. Assuming enemy models are basically base to base and 1" in diameter each, you 'd be looking at about 28 models. I've definitely seen guardsman, ork, genestealer, and necron blobs packed about that densely.

Personally, I like the idea of giving anti-horde "templates" and "blasts" bonus shots based on enemy unit size. So a flamer might auto-hit d6 times + 1 hit for every 5 models in the enemy unit (rounding up). Or you could make it 1d6 hits per ten models or what have you. The exact numbers are adjustable. The main point is that the weapon becomes more effective against larger squads without becoming more effective against small squads.

Flamers as bunker busters would make more sense if "buildings" were more of a thing. Giving them ignores cover (no bonus to armor) would help them out a little, but only a little.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Flamers as bunker busters would make more sense if "buildings" were more of a thing. Giving them ignores cover (no bonus to armor) would help them out a little, but only a little.

In the Cities of Death rules, frag grenades get an auto 6 shots against units in cover. So just do the same for flamers and let them ignore cover. High risk, high reward I say.

Honestly if throw away the d6 and make it hit once for every model within 10" (because only 8 is to little that way)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly if throw away the d6 and make it hit once for every model within 10" (because only 8 is to little that way)

I genuinely believe you can consistently get most of if not all of a 30 man blob within 10" of a flamer model. Especially if that unit charged something last turn. So against the gaunts, you're talking about 20 wounds = roughly 17 dead gaunts. Against orks, you're talking about about 15 wounds = about 12 or 13 dead orks. So how many points should the humble flamer that kills 12+ models on its own cost?

Also, I'm not a fan of "hits per models in range" mechanic because I could see it leading to people agonizing over precise model placement again. "Okay, I'm going to have these two guys within 10" so that I only have to make an 8" charge, but I want these other 20 guys at 10.1" or farther away so that you only hit me twice."

+1 to target ap, 3 hits for each 5 models in target unit. 10" range. Kills lightly armored hordes and doesn't threaten elite infantry.

Let heavy flamer be ap neutral.

Reduce prices.

Call it a day.

Just make it auto hit the number of models in the unit, to a maximum of X, where X is whatever number they think is fair for the weapon.

E.g. A Flamer could be Auto(6). If a unit of 1 model is shot at, it gets 1 hit. If a unit of 4 is shot at, 4 hits. If a unit of ninety quadrillion and four gets shot at, 6 hits.

Auto(N): This weapon automatically hits the target unit up to N times, but no more than the number of models in the unit within range.

Flamer then gets Auto(6).

Sounds interesting.

Bharring wrote:
Auto(N): This weapon automatically hits the target unit up to N times, but no more than the number of models in the unit within range.

Flamer then gets Auto(6).

Sounds interesting.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, but I'm not sure what the intended result of such a change would be. It powers the flamer up a little bit in general (except against small units and characters), but it doesn't really change how well it scales against hordes compared to, say, a 5-man marine squad.

Flamers only ever doing one hit on a single model was bad mechanically though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Flamers only ever doing one hit on a single model was bad mechanically though.

Thank you.

Why was flamers doing 1 hit to MCs or tanks bad mechanically, though?

I thought it was fitting and fair.

Bharring wrote:
Why was flamers doing 1 hit to MCs or tanks bad mechanically, though?

I thought it was fitting and fair.

Fitting and fair?
Do you think that people in real life using Flame Throwers were just doing one quick spurt on one person? Have you seen video at all?

Flamers are good for what they do, they just need a range boost in this meta of 9+ " unit charges. Extend them out to 10".

"Do you think that people in real life using Flame Throwers were just doing one quick spurt on one person? Have you seen video at all?"

Not at all. I assume they cover the target in flame. And that flame burns hot. It's going to kill it's target dead. Like being hit by a rocket propelled "bolt" that explodes on impact - if you're in the flame, you're probably going to burn.

However, when they use a flamethrower in real life, it's just as likely to hurt two gutys in a room as it is to hurt one guy in a room. Why would it be twice as deadly to a guy in a room if he's alone vs with others? That makes no sense to me.

It's a jet of flame. It's not controlled bursts. So if you're shooting a target area with it, you're shooting everyhting in the area. It should impact everything it hits equally, not impact fewer things more powerfully.

I think that most of these weapons should be X+Blast Y, with Flamers having their auto-hit rule.

X is the base number of shots, Blast Y is extra shots per Y or portion of Y models in the unit.

So, a basic flamer is 1d3+Blast 3, with an auto-hit special rule.

That means that, no matter what, you get 1d3 hits. Then, you get 1 extra hit if the unit is one to three strong, 2 extra hits if it's four to six, 3 extra if it's seven to nine, etc.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think that most of these weapons should be X+Blast Y, with Flamers having their auto-hit rule.

X is the base number of shots, Blast Y is extra shots per Y or portion of Y models in the unit.

So, a basic flamer is 1d3+Blast 3, with an auto-hit special rule.

That means that, no matter what, you get 1d3 hits. Then, you get 1 extra hit if the unit is one to three strong, 2 extra hits if it's four to six, 3 extra if it's seven to nine, etc.

Exactly. This is what I've been supporting.

Bharring wrote:
Auto(N): This weapon automatically hits the target unit up to N times, but no more than the number of models in the unit within range.

Flamer then gets Auto(6).

Sounds interesting.

I like this. But change it to ...but no more than the number of wounds in the unit within range.

Close. I think the way the Burna Bommer works is almost exactly what we need.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly if throw away the d6 and make it hit once for every model within 10" (because only 8 is to little that way)

Bharring wrote:Auto(N): This weapon automatically hits the target unit up to N times, but no more than the number of models in the unit within range.

Flamer then gets Auto(6).

And these suggestions are quite close.

I suggest:
"This weapon automatically hits each model in the target unit that is within range, up to a maximum of X hits."
A flamer would still have 8" range and a max of 10 hits.
Heavy flamers might have 10" and a max of 13 hits.
And so on. Exact numbers to be tweaked during play testing of course. I picked 10 because I think that's about as many 25mm bases as you can possibly touch with the template from 3rd-7th editions.

Ignoring cover is probably a good idea too, but I can see that being a separate rule for some weapons, rather than being applied to every weapon of this type.

I like the "Auto(n)" stat idea alot, especially if that is capped at no more than one hit per enemy model in the target unit.

would suggest a slight modifier, for single weapons thats fine, but would suggest "n" is always an even number, specifically so that it applies to the first such weapon in a unit, the remaining ones get half, again capped.

Sisters of Silence with five flamers then have one at say Auto(6) and four at Auto(3) - once you are on fire being more on fire starts to matter less - gives them 18 automatic hits, as opposed to 30. They currently have 5d6 so its about the same.

then possibly shift so subsequent weapons after the first have a reduced cost - for most units this will never matter, but it stops the few that carry multiple flame weapons from being a bit too silly

I think I butchered the 'Auto(N)', actually.

It should be:
Area(N): Weapons with profile Area(N) may shoot up to N times, but no more than the number of models in the unit within range of this weapon.

Autohitting should be specific to the Flamer/other templates' rules.

Reason being, Flamers aren't the only "template" weapon that should be limited this way. Autohitting is more specific than hitting an area.

I think reducing them after the first would get too complicated, actually. Unfortunately, I think we need to be very careful in the balancing, to ensure SM Tac squads can do great things with a Flamer (Orkz should FEAR it), but Sisters will all Flamers don't get rediculous. It's really hard to balance.

Bharring wrote:
I think I butchered the 'Auto(N)', actually.

It should be:
Area(N): Weapons with profile Area(N) may shoot up to N times, but no more than the number of models in the unit within range of this weapon.

Autohitting should be specific to the Flamer/other templates' rules.

Reason being, Flamers aren't the only "template" weapon that should be limited this way. Autohitting is more specific than hitting an area.

I think reducing them after the first would get too complicated, actually. Unfortunately, I think we need to be very careful in the balancing, to ensure SM Tac squads can do great things with a Flamer (Orkz should FEAR it), but Sisters will all Flamers don't get rediculous. It's really hard to balance.

I'm going to say worry about One issue at a time.
Worry about making templates actually work then we can figure out how to point them correctly.