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2018/08/31 15:37:53
Subject: Collecting feedback on ALL Astartes codexes
UPDATE: Due to my own madness I've expanded this to include ALL Astartes codexes (that includes the Traitors too) and not just the vanilla one. First off because the vanilla armies basically share a mass of units between each other, and because the basic issues that the armies have roll over into the CSM book as well (like Cultists being mathematically better than CSM on basically all fronts when you take the same number of points).
So if you're starting from here: if the codex has the keyword Adeptus Astartes it's fair game: what needs help?
At the time of this post I'm tracking all Astartes models have issues with their saves lacking value, their melee and shooting lacking sufficient quality/quantity to combat their lower model count, vehicles needing to benefit from CT and LT as well as issues with morale protection being mostly non-existent, so what else needs to be looked at?
Spoiler:
We've basically well established that the vanilla codex is rather...weak at best. And in the interest of giving GW detailed feedback in hopes that their eventual update to the army comes around I had to ask myself "what would it take to bring this army from being balanced against the index to being balanced against the other armies in the game?"
Let's leave point changes off the table since those are likely coming in Chapter Approved. No, let's talk rules.
First off, Chapter Tactics should apply to every model with the <Chapter> rule save for Servitors. Just because someone is piloting or gunning in a tank doesn't mean he doesn't forget how to fight like a member of his chapter. This is basically an automatic change for most people, but let's go past that and look at all the chapter tactics as well.
The adjustments I feel could help here is making the chapter tactic two parts. The first benefiting the army as a whole, the second which encourages specific builds for the army to both encourage different flavors of Marines to approach the codex differently and bring out a flavor that fits the lore of the army.
The first draft of rules:
[spoiler]Ultramarines: +1 Leadership; Infantry, Biker and Dreadnoughts may still fire after falling back at -1.
Not much I could really see to change this one. The army is well balanced in terms of benefits and allows players to be a bit more aggressive with less penalty. Honestly this is one I'd leave alone since it works, even if it's not the automatic best option in the book (not counting Guilliman as a bonus to this of course).
White Scars: +2" Advance and Charge (this still means a +8" Turbo Boost); Units can charge in a turn they fell back
Increased charge range lets these guys be more likely to hit and run more often and promotes these guys to the hit and run army.
Imperial Fists: Enemy units don't benefit from cover; Bolt weapons generate additional shots on a hit roll of 6+ (these additional hits don't generate futher hits).
The bolter masters are back basically. This basically makes Imperial Fists the best choice for shooting armies, but pushes them towards being more heavily focused on bolters. Naturally this means the Fortification bonus would be a stratagem instead since it's less likely to even show up in most games but flavorful so shouldn't go away completely.
Black Templars: Reroll failed charges; Infantry, Biker and Dreadnought models gain +1 Attack on a turn they charge, were charged or perform a Heroic Intervention.
With other melee based armies getting bonuses to their actual combat, it only felt right that the OG Power Armoured Horde gets one of their own, and making it so that a Crusader Squad can swing up to 61 times if they're running around at full size (20 models with chainswords = 40 attacks, +20 for a first turn of combat = 60 attacks, +1 for Sword Brother = 61 total). Basically if you want to Black Tide this would be the ultimate bonus for doing so: a bucket of dice.
Salamanders: Re-roll single hit and wound roll per unit each time it shoots and fights; flamer weapons roll two dice and take the highest to determine the number of shots they fire
We all know Salamanders as the masters of having well crafted wargear and burning people alive. This would make flamers more effective for them without getting too silly about it.
Raven Guard: Ignore charge penalties; Infantry models who haven't moved this turn count as being in cover, Infantry models already in cover who haven't moved this turn gain an additional +1 to their cover save.
More reliable charging through terrain to give them a feeling of being ambush specialists (since you usually ambush out of terrain you were hidden in) while changes would need to be made to the CT if the entire army can benefit from the rule to keep the Raven Guard from turning into the best option for running tanks in the codex.
Iron Hands: 6+ to ignore lost wounds; Never lose more than 1 model due to a failed morale check
Basically their hard to remove nature only becomes even harder. With even their vehicles getting a chance to shrug off wounds an Iron Hands army would be the sturdiest choice in the codex by far.
Now naturally the changes wouldn't be limited to just that, so let's keep going.
First, to adjust the Imperial Fists strategem:
Siege Specialists: 2 CP, Use this Stratagem before an Imperial Fists unit attacks in the shooting or fight phase. Until the end of the phase the unit may reroll all to hit, to wound rolls and damage rolls against models with the Building keyword.
Simple, clean and makes the army really good at cracking a building, but at a cost (2 CP due to it rerolling everything against buildings and making it more likely to turn fortifications into rubble with some good rolls).
Now let's make some fixes on the Warlord Traits:
The Imperium's Sword: Re-roll failed charges for your Warlord; +1 attack if you charged or made a Heroic Intervention
If we're giving out bonuses for being aggressive with your warlord, we might as well go full in and make it work on Heroic Interventions too.
Iron Resolve: +1 wound; ignore lost wounds on a roll of a 6, Iron Hands ignore wounds on a roll of a 5 or a 6 instead.
Biggest fix here is making it so Iron Hands don't just ignore it because they already have half the bonus.
Adept of the Codex (Ultramarines): Once per game, if your warlord is alive you may roll a die for each Command Point spent on a Stratagem, on a 5+ you regain that Command Point.
Infinite command point regeneration is a cancer in the game right now and if we're making adjustments we might as well include the few nerfs the army needs too.
I can't comment on Psychic Powers as much as I'd like as I'm not as well versed in using them this editon so I'll let someone else fill in on this and give some ideas how we can adjust what we have to be less "pick X and Y and ignore the rest".
Now I can comment on wargear a bit though, and will:
Stalker bolt rifle: Either Heavy 2 OR allow it to target models like a sniper rifle. If given both benefits it'd need a points bump and I'd rather see it be the army's way of having powered armour snipers or be a weapon for pumping out higher quality of shots from a static position.
Flamestorm gauntlets (shooting): 18" range. Basically it'd have torrent levels of range and make it an actual threat instead of something that can never quite waddle into range.
Heavy Plasma incinerator: Heavy 2. Not a big change, but it'd actually be worth dropping extra points on using this way.
Bolt pistols (on Primaris Models): just make these all Heavy Bolt Pistols. There is no point in giving the faction a unique bolt pistol that matches the bolt rifle if almost no one uses it (especially since we can see the bolt pistol on Primaris models is different than regular bolt pistols).
Terminator armour (all types): Reduce damage from weapons by 1 (to a minimum of 1). D2 weapons keeping these guys on the shelf? Being able to treat those as D1 weapons would go a long way to making Terminators likely to stick around a lot longer.
Second draft:
Spoiler:
Alright, so I started this thing so I might as well go through everything then to get some discussion going about the codex in whole. I'm going to avoid anything that essentially could just get cheaper (from my viewpoint at least) as a fix. The ultimate goal of this will always remain a submission to GW on why the community is neglecting so much of the book's options, what could change about them to make them a viable option for most players, and generally the point is to get away from just making the army cheaper and cheaper until we start looking like a Guard army with better wargear.
There are two main goals I have for this whole submission:
1. Present a method in which an elite army like Space Marines may be reasonably balanced against other armies, particularly horde armies, while keeping in mind that many changes made here will apply to other armies here when taking into considering wargear or the base mechanics of Marines. Many buffs could end up buffing other armies and it could easilly defeat the purpose of the buff if it leaves the army unable to reach a balanced state within the game.
2. Give each chapter in the codex a faction bonus that provides benefits that every unit can enjoy without imbalancing the game while also giving each a specialization bonus that rewards the choosing of certain wargear or unit types creating distinct types of armies within the framework of the greater codex.
To kick things off, let's go back over those Chapter Tactics again, shall we? Don't worry, this isn't a rehash but rather an update.
Now I've gotten some feedback about these already which has helped me refine the rules a bit more. Each will be a two part bonus to the faction, the first something any unit can enjoy, the second a more focused bonus for specific models or weapons to create an army specialization that will allow each chapter to have a disctinct playstyle from each other if a player builds towards it. I want to start with these first because it creates a picture in your mind on how each change might affect one chapter more than another.
Chapter Tactics: If your army is Battle-forged models with the <Chapter> keyword in a Space Marines detachement gain a Chapter Tactic as long as every unit in that detachment is drawn from the same Chapter.
It's a small change to the way the chapter tactics work, but it's a change every Space Marine player can say should apply. It opens the army up to a lot more flexibility and makes vehicles worth taking knowing that you can kit them to work like the rest of your army.
Ultramarines: Codex Discipline: Ultramarines units never lose more than a single model due to a failed morale test. Models with the Character, Dreadnought, or Vehicle keywords instead gain +1 Leadership. Ultramarines units may shoot in the same turn in which they Fall Back.
The change here is to encourage Ultramarine units to form larger units due to a lower fear of morale as well as giving single model units greater protection against effects that target leadership. The penalty for falling back and shooting was removed to coinicide with the previous change to encourage Ultramarine armies to be aggressive in their approach as they can get stuck in with less fear of morale and then step back and open fire with all barrels.
White Scars: Lightning Assault: Whenever a White Scars unit Advances, Charges or Turbo-boosts it moves an additional 2" in addition to the distance rolled (turbo-boosting models move the full 6" plus the additional 2" for a full 8" instead of rolling). Models with the Biker, Infantry or Dreadnought rule may charge on a turn they Fall Back at no penalty. Models with the Vehicle keyword (to include Vehicle models with the Dreadnought keyword) treat their weapons as assault weapons during a turn in which they advanced (ex. Rapid Fire 1 becomes Assault 1, Heavy 3 becomes Heavy 3).
The biggest change here is making the army faster overall. The White Scars are known for modifying even their tanks to go faster and it didn't make any sense that they should be going slower. Additionally, as a chapter that basically hits the enemy as they drive through them the chapter isn't known for slowing down, making the bonus to their charges something that just fits naturally. Generally speaking this is the army that moves the fastest, and can slam into the enemy multiple times to kill it making it so they can keep something tied up on your opponent's turn before breaking free, shooting with your army's suport elements and then hitting that unit again.
Imperial Fists: Siege Masters: Enemy units do not recieve benefit to their saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by Imperial Fists models, furthermore Imperial Fists re-roll all to-wound and damage rolls against enemy models with the Building keyword. In addition models making a shooting attack with a bolt weapon (any weapon with "bolt" in it's name and Dorn's Arrow are all bolt weapons as is the boltgun half of a combi-weapon) may make an additional to-hit roll for every roll of a 6. These to-hit rolls do not generate additional shots. The non-bolt weapon portion of a combi-weapon additionally does not benefit from this rule.
While I feel the rule towards buildings to be incredibly fluffy, it's not enough to build an army around as it's more situational than something you can build an army around. As such I didn't take it away but rolled it into the first effect as it fits well with their removal of an enemy's army protection mechanic. Making them the army that benefits the most from taking bolter weapons was more to make a nod to their special rule in their previous supplement material. This creates an army with a focus on shooting, but with a key focus on using bolt weapons as the basis of that shooting.
Black Templars: Righteous Zeal: You can re-roll either or both dice when a Black Templar unit fails a charge roll. On a turn a model with this rule charges, was charged or makes a Heroic Intervention add 1 to its Attacks characteristic until the end of the Fight Phase .
The Black Templars are quite clearly the melee focused army in the codex and it needs to show. Making their charges more reliable through rerolls ensures these zealots will make it to combat more often while the extra attack seperates them from their fellow Astartes as being the army that throws the most dice in combat. Basically the intent is to make them feel like an army that benefits from being stuck in, and gets stuck in more often.
Salamanders: Master Artisans: Salamander units with this rule may re-roll a single to-hit and to-wound roll each time they shoot or fight. Additionally when using a weapon that rolls to determine the number of shots or attacks you may roll two dice and take the highest result.
The biggest benefit for this rule is undoubtably to vehicle with lower numbers of shots such as lascannon predators, but also helps weapons that swing the other way by making weapons that roll random number of shots more reliable for the army. Ultimately this makes Salamanders a strong contender for certain heavy weapon options as well as weapons such as the flamer which are less than reliable at times.
Raven Guard: Shadow Masters: Raven Guard units that have not advanced or charged this turn gain the benefits for cover. Models that are already in cover and have not moved instead gain an additional +1 to their cover save bonus. Additionally, when targeting Infantry models with this special rule, your opponent must subtract 1 from their to-hit rolls if they are more than 12" away.
There were two changes here: the first was to make it so the army still has a benefit for their ability to hide themselves and their use of camoflauge, allowing them to feel like the ambush masters they should be, while giving Infantry models the existing bonus as a means of encouraging lists that aren't just a mass of tanks that get a cover bonus in the open.
Iron Hands: The Flesh is Weak: Roll a die each time an Iron Hands model loses a wound. On a unmodified roll of a 6 the damage is ignored and the model does not lose a wound. Models with the Character, Terminator or Dreadnought keywords instead ignore the lost wound on an unmodified roll of 5 or 6. Additionally Iron Hand models with the Vehicle keyword ignore penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons.
Not only are the more heavilly augmented of the chapter more likely to ignore wounds like they do in the lore, though with future proofing so that the mechanic can't be boosted or reduced by any other rules. Of course, the augmented nature of the Iron Hands become the army that benefits from bringing the most heavy weapons, though due to the way the rules work, they'll be different than the ones seen in a Salamanders army due to the benefits being different. This allows two different kind of armies to come out of the codex that both favor heavier weapons, but favor different ones due to the nature of how the rules interact with the weapons.
With how each chapter operates laid out and given a bonus that makes them feel more in line with their lore now it's time to look at the Warlord Traits. Not all of these need to be looked at as most are pretty solid as is and frankly work as viable options for the army that can take them. So in the interest of not making this longer than it already is going to be, let's keep to the ones that actually need addressing:
Angel of Death: Subtract 1 from the Leadership characteristic of enemy units that are within 6" of your Warlord. If your Warlord has slain an enemy Character during the game instead Subtract 2 from the Leadership characterisitic of enemy units within 12" of your Warlord.
Not a big change here, but it encourages you to use your warlord more aggressively to take out enemy characters during the game.
The Imperium's Sword: Re-roll failed charge rolls for your Warlord. Models with the Black Templars keyword instead roll 3 dice and pick the two highest when making charge rolls. In addition in a turn that your Warlord has charged or makes an Heroic Intervention add 1 to their Attacks characteristic until the end of the fight phase.
Biggest changes here were to make it less redundant to Black Templars while also giving a bonus for Heroic Interventions to make it more likely to see the table for armies who need a defensive melee character escorting their deathball on the table.
Iron Resolve: Add 1 to the Wounds characteristic of your warlord. In addition, roll a dice each time your Warlord loses a wound. On an unmodified roll of a 5 or 6, your Warlord shrugs off the damage and does not lose the wound. Models with the Iron Hands keyword instead ignore a lost wound on an unmodified roll of a 4, 5, or 6.
Due to the proposed changes in the Iron Hands tactic it was basically a necessity to make this work on a 4+ for an Iron Hands warlord. That said, if you want a tank of a character, they're the ones who'll most likely allow you to be one. That's the perks of replacing most of your body with robotic parts I suppose.
Rites of War: Friendly <Chapter> units within 6" of your Warlord automatically pass Morale tests. Additionally units within 6" of your Warlord count as hitting on a 5 or 6 when firing Overwatch.
Biggest change here is to give player better benefit out of the trait for huddling models up on the board. A bonus to overwatch makes this a viable choice for gunline or deathball style armies even when paired with units that don't tend to run full sized squads (Primaris or Devastators for example who don't worry about morale as much).
Champion of Humanity: You can add 1 to all hit and wound rolls made for your Warlord in the Fight phase when targeting an enemy Character or Monster.
Change here is that some of the things you want to throw a beatstick warlord at aren't characters and really any hero of the Imperium should be able to fight either of these things on equal measure.
Adept of the Codex (Ultramarines): While your Warlord is alive and on the table once per phase you may reuse a previously used Stratagem. Stratagems that target friendly units this way may not target the same unit twice, and can not be used to exceed any limitations within the stratagem that limit when they can be used or how many times a game they can be used. Additionally, once per game you may attempt to regain Command Points spent on a stratagem. If you choose to do this, roll a die for each Command Point, on a 2+ that CP is immediately refunded.
Obviously I'm not a fan of the current Adepts of the Codex as unlimited CP regeneration is a broken mechanic in the game when given for free so the change was to make the Ultramarines the more tactically flexible army instead by allowing them to use stratagems more often. This also allows them to partially negate the effects of Agents of Vect by allowing them to reuse a critical statagem that they were denied in that phase.
Oathkeeper (Black Templars): At the beginning of the first Battle Round, but before the first turn begins, your Warlord swears a Vow against the enemy forces. Choose a Vow from the following list and apply it's effects immediately:
Abhor the Witch: Your Warlord can attempt to deny one psychic power per turn as if they were a psyker. If they have the Armour of Contempt special rule they may instead attempt to deny one additional psychic power per turn.
Purge the Heretic: Your Warlord may perform a Heroic Interventions if the enemy are within 6" (instead of 3" and move up to 6" while doing so. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord may roll an extra die and choose the highest when making charge rolls.
Suffer not the Unclean to Live: Your Warlord gains +1 to hit and wound rolls made against models with the Character keywords. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord roll an extra die and choose the highest while Advancing.
This is a long one but generally the idea is to give the Black Templars their vows back. Each has an obvious bonus against a specific enemy in combat, but comes with an additional use that may cause the vows to be taken against other opponents instead. Honestly these likely need work and have been through several versions before I posted these. Ideas and suggestions especialyl welcome here.
With Warlord traits covered, let's talk Wargear. As before I'm only talking about changes here, but the point of these changes is as always going to be with the mind that other armies may see the changes just as well. As such there won't be as much changed her because any bonus to bolters (for example) would equally apply to an army like Sisters of Battle who typically greatly outnumber Space Marines and would negate any bonus that weapon would have against the cheaper bodies. Ideally I'd love to say that every bolter is Rapid Fire 2 and -1 AP to make Marines have the shooting output of a horde army on a smaller body count (and making every casualty take more out of the army in return) but realistically it doesn't work when you consider that the bolter is spread across a number of other armies and a higher body count army with bolters like Sisters or Scouts would become a broken mess in terms of balance.
Ranged Weapons Bolt pistol (on Primaris models): Replace with Heavy Bolt Pistol. The Primaris are a more elite form of the regular Space Marine army and as such require more quality damage output to make up for their smaller numbers. The additional AP doesn't break balance for the army while giving the units a bit more punch when locked in combat, which is important for a group that lacks a number of melee options.
Demolisher Cannon: When targetting a unit of 5 or more models change this weapon's Type to Heavy 2D3. Generally speaking feedback I've seen time and time again is players prefer to have 2D3 shots over D6 as the average number of shots is higher for the 2D3 (4 versus 3) and it means firing at least 2 shots instead of 1. Basically it just does so much more to make the gun more likely to see the table with this change even without a points change.
Flamestorm gauntlets (shooting): 12" range Generally speaking no one takes these guys due to the range of their weapon being so short and with the loss of templates the fixation of 8" being the range for flame weapons can go away now. The weapon was left unchanged as the Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet pattern comes with the Fragstorm Launchers standard and fires 6+D6 shots meaning the minimum number of shots for the boltstorm variant is higher, but the Flamestorm varient trades that for automatically hitting.
Grav (all varients): If the target has a Save characterisitc of 3+ or better, this weapon's Strength caracteristic is doubled and the Damage characteristic is increased to D3.
Grav-Cannon and grav-amp: Heavy 2
The heavier something is the harder this is supposed to hit, so the way it hits should reflect that. As such increasing it to S10 makes it more likely to hurt those bigger models. However, keeping the Grav-cannon at Heavy 4 wasn't a balanced choice as that would give a Devastator Squad 16 S10 shots against anything with a 3+ or better which would be outright mad.
Heavy Flamer: 12" range, Heavy 2D3. Honestly I don't get the original change from Assault to Heavy, but regardless, we've given up the flamer template and as such it's a good way to make the Heavy Flamer a different weapon from the regular Flamer. An increased range makes it possible for it to reach out and touch the things easier while the 2D3 shots gives it a better average on it's number of hits over a standard flamer. Basically it's moving the weapon beyond just being a slight S and AP boost over the base flamer and makes it feel like a proper heavy weapon on the table.
Heavy Plasma Incinerator: Heavy 2. A slight points increase on the gun might be needed but honestly the reason this version of the Hellblaster's gun is left off the table beyond proxy is because the increased strength isn't enough to counterbalance the loss of mobility from making it a Heavy weapon as well as decreasing the number of shots. Giving it extra shots makes it more into the Primaris answer for more heavilly armoured models (such as vehicles, Custodes and Monsters) while still retaining the same limitations the current gun has: slower movement with decreased efficiency when you need to move.
Master-crafted Stalker bolt rifle/Stalker bolt rifle: Heavy 2 OR the ability to target characters. Either of these options would fix the Stalker bolt rifle so that it would see the table more often. As it currently is the Stalker has the same basic problems the Heavy Plasma Incinerator does: the loss of mobility AND number of shots with no bonus to targetting isn't enough to justify taking this weapon for just about anyone. Being able to target Characters like a Sniper Rifle or giving it Heavy 2 to allow it to offset it's lowered movement would put these into people's lists, even if it brought a slight points increase.
Melta (all types): Double weapon strength at half range instead of the bonus to damage rolls. Additionally change the damage characteristic to D3+3. These are weapons meant to slag even the heaviest of armour at close range and even from further away it could still do a severe amount of damage if it punches through the armour. For obvious reasons this means the Melta bomb should always be S16 as well.
Plasma weapons (all types): Change the bearer being slain to the bearer taking a mortal wound. While having your guys have their faces melt off is a long standing featur of the lore, the introduction of Mortal Wounds really fits this mechanic better and would allow for better synergy with armies that have mechanics to allow them to ignore Mortal Wounds, such as Iron Hands or Death Guard. This would also cut down how much the mechanic punishes multi-wound models such as Primaris or HQ choices for using plasma.
Melee Weapons Chainsword/Combat Knife: -1 AP. This may require a small (1-2 point) bump as it'd still give an extra attack, but considering the lower number of attacks that can be put out by a Marine army compared to larger armies like Orks or even Guard there needs to be a quality bump to offset the lowered quantity of attacks.
Power Sword: Abilities: Parry: Increase the bearer's save by 1 during the Fight Phase. Generally the Power Sword is seen as a lot less of a choice. It doesn't make wounding models easier like the other options, and while it's better at ignoring armour there is a diminishing return on this against most targets. Increasing the defensive ability of the bearer at least gives it a utility beyond strictly trying to more effectively stab the other guy.
Vehicle Wargear Dozer Blades: Double the bearer's Attacks characteristic until the end of the Fight Phase on a turn it has completed a successful charge. Basically let's bring these back and then let players use them to ram people.
Siege Shield: The bearer's Save characteristic is increased by 1 against shooting attacks. Giving a Vindicator tank an increased save against shooting for a points cost doesn't break the army as much as it gives a tank with rather limited firepower more staying power so it might actually weather more than a unit's shooting before it's reduced to a smoking puddle of slag on the table.
Misc Equipment Terminator Armour: Models with the Terminator keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Additionally increase their save to 1+. Since a 1 always fails this means that the save only negates the first AP of a weapon and reduces how effective multidamage weapons are. Essentially it means they won't go down quite as fast to anything less than dedicated heavy weapon fire or weight of dice.
Power Armour: Has +1 to it's save Characteristic against weapons with an AP profile of -1 or greater (-2,-3,ect). This was a hard one to puzzle over as Power Armour is on so many different armies. Increasing the save like All is Dust could just lead to us having Sisters running around with effective 2+ saves all the time, and a FnP effect wasn't really going to work either. In the end negating 1 of the weapon's AP seemed like the cleanest solution, though it does mean that you need to hit Thousand Sons Rubric models with -2 AP just to get them to a 3+. Magnus would be proud I guess?
Centurion Armour: Models with the Centurion keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Increase their save by 1 against weapons with a Damage characteristic of 1. Yes, even the waddlebots are getting a look here, because honestly all that extra armour should be doing something more than it is.
Gravis Armour: Models with the Gravis keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Increase their save by +1 against weapons with a Damage characteristic of 1. With how durable Gravis is supposed to be it needed something to feel like it was going to stay on the table longer. As lazy as it is to just reuse All Is Dust, here and on the Centurion armour, the extra armour being stronger against weaker weapons makes sense in terms of the lore. Reducing the weapon damage fits equally well and gives them more staying power. With these additions the need to push points down on the models becomes rather moot as they become the durable weapon platfoms they're shown as in the lore.
So what changes do you feel the codex needs to fix the balance with the rest of the game?[/spoiler]
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 04:28:01
2018/08/31 15:51:41
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Terminator armour (all types): Reduce damage from weapons by 1 (to a minimum of 1). D2 weapons keeping these guys on the shelf? Being able to treat those as D1 weapons would go a long way to making Terminators likely to stick around a lot longer.
I like this very much, and I would add that this rule should replace the 5++. Also give them 1+ armour (1s still fail, of course) and you have a very durable unit that might actually stick around long enough to do something.
Terminator armour (all types): Reduce damage from weapons by 1 (to a minimum of 1). D2 weapons keeping these guys on the shelf? Being able to treat those as D1 weapons would go a long way to making Terminators likely to stick around a lot longer.
I like this very much, and I would add that this rule should replace the 5++. Also give them 1+ armour (1s still fail, of course) and you have a very durable unit that might actually stick around long enough to do something.
-
I don't think we should drop the 5++ if only for the fact that the save historically came from the Crux Terminatus which contains a microscopic sliver of the Emperor's own armour and not the Terminator armour itself, but the 1+ idea sounds good.
2018/08/31 15:55:36
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Wow do you hate Ultramarines with some passion.
You've given them no improvement and massively nerfed their unique warlord trait, which is rarely used outside of named charictors as marine strategums are so hot garbage.
While I get you dont want to turn Raven guard into the next Alitoc Eldar OPBS. Marine vehicals are made of paper for their points and need some serious survivability improvements to be worth fielding.
That is the reason everone when straight to flyers then FW dreadnaughts with invulnerable saves.
18 inch flamestorm guantlets are broken as feth, especially when you add double shooting(aggressors built in bonus rule)
Heavy Plasma doesn't need 2 shots. It is where it should be the problem is GW decieded to +1 to plasma's strength in the change to 8th edition presumably as primaris marines rely on plasma for their anti tank. When they undo that mistake the problem goes away.
2018/08/31 16:01:48
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Ice_can wrote: Wow do you hate Ultramarines with some passion.
You've given them no improvement and massively nerfed their unique warlord trait, which is rarely used outside of named charictors as marine strategums are so hot garbage.
I couldn't think of any improvement to give the most vanilla army choice. If you have one I'm up for hearing it. CP regeneration needs to be nerfed though.
Ice_can wrote: While I get you dont want to turn Raven guard into the next Alitoc Eldar OPBS. Marine vehicals are made of paper for their points and need some serious survivability improvements to be worth fielding.
Which arguably is more the Iron Hand's forte, not the Raven Guard's. That said, counting as being in cover if you don't move isn't broken, even on tanks, but then we risk Raven Guard turning into the mech gunline army due to having the better saves over even the Iron Hands' stuff.
Ice_can wrote: 18 inch flamestorm guantlets are broken as feth, especially when you add double shooting(aggressors built in bonus rule)
8" is far too short though. Maybe split the difference and put it at 12"?
Ice_can wrote: Heavy Plasma doesn't need 2 shots. It is where it should be the problem is GW decieded to +1 to plasma's strength in the change to 8th edition presumably as primaris marines rely on plasma for their anti tank. When they undo that mistake the problem goes away.
Go read the Primaris tactics thread. Even with that S9 overcharge you don't see people relying on it for anti-tank for Primaris. The volume of fire is too low to justify its points cost even with the bonus to strength.
2018/08/31 16:05:37
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
I like a lot of your proposed changes, and while I agree that a -1 to hit trait applied to an entire army would be very bad for the game, I definitely feel that your Raven Guard chapter tactic is extremely lackluster. Maybe something like <INFANTRY> are -1 to hit at more than 12" and other units, such as vehicles or bikes get the benefit of cover even out in the open. Also, the Adept of the Codex warlord trait looks very useless as you have it written. It would have to do something else for sure to make it worth taking. Love Iron Resolve change.
2018/08/31 16:07:41
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
The thing discussing rules changes to solves problems reminds me of is something Mark Rosewater, one of the designers for magic the gathering said. I can't find the exact quote ATM but it was essentially "players are excellent at finding problems but terrible at finding solutions". Not really aimed at anything in particular but some people get very adamant about how their suggestions are exactly what the game needs then refuse to analyse or elaborate.
One of the problems I feel is people often have short posts that say "just do this it's simple". For threads like this to be productive people need to put depth into their responses. They need to first point out the problem. Then suggest a solution. After that elaborate on how that impacts the unit in question and the game as a whole. Solutions need to be elegant, for example points based solutions are elegant, They don't add any new rules or interactions or need players to memorise anything new. A solution like "missile launchers suck, give them 2 extra ammo types, one for flyers and one for heavy infantry" is not an elegant solution. It means that the new ammo types would need to be tested against all possible targets, the points value of the weapons with the new profiles would need to be re-examined, players need to memorise the new profiles, etc. A similar thing happens when people suggest giving a unit three new special rules to "fix" it. Changes need to be made one at a time and analysed properly, then each combination of potential rules need to be tested together to see what fits best with the goal for those changes while being as friendly on the players and changing as little of the system as possible.
I feel like if people put more thought into their posts a thread like this could be very productive and come with some elegant solutions to problems. But this is the internet so most replies will likely be offhanded comments that the poster just feels seems like the right fix. Everyone thinks these sorts of thoughts at times but rules changes need to be elegant, well reasoned and tested.
TL;DR: When making suggestions say the unit, the problem, the proposed fix, the impact of the fix on the unit and the game as a whole.
2018/08/31 16:09:30
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
CommunistNapkin wrote: I like a lot of your proposed changes, and while I agree that a -1 to hit trait applied to an entire army would be very bad for the game, I definitely feel that your Raven Guard chapter tactic is extremely lackluster. Maybe something like <INFANTRY> are -1 to hit at more than 12" and other units, such as vehicles or bikes get the benefit of cover even out in the open. Also, the Adept of the Codex warlord trait looks very useless as you have it written. It would have to do something else for sure to make it worth taking. Love Iron Resolve change.
That could work for Raven Guard honestly. It'd still be strong, but it wouldn't turn the army into the nonsense we see from the Eldar, nor would it throw Iron Hands under the bus as being the better mechanized army.
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
2018/08/31 16:10:44
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
I like the flavor, and appreciate that your suggestions are within reason.
I think a lot more iterating would be needed. However, realize that the other PA books generally suffer the same problems - so fixing Tacs by buffing Vanilla may not be ideal.
That said, yes, please change CTs. For instance, UM clearly need *something*, even if it's just +1LD atop what they currently get. I
t's hard to argue with CTs-affect-vehicles (mostly). I'd rather it be a tactic-by-tactic thing. I'd imagine the upthread Sally and RG tactics would only affect Infantry, but Iron Hands would affect everything.
On the topic of the RG trait, I'd love all the relevant factions (Alpha Legion and Alaitoc) to get such a change. If it needs toning down, look at the +1-cover-saves bit. Further, with that not impacting vehicles, I think you'd see RG played the way we think of them.
A true fix for the SM codex may need to actually *nerf* some options so that there's room to buff others. Nerf Big G further, and there'll be less problems buffing UltraMarines or Marines in general. Same with Agressors and double shooting. But I'm sure that's beyond the scope of what you're looking to do here.
I like your changes. I'd love to see them. I'd love for them to go further.
2018/08/31 16:18:30
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
The problem with that solution in 90% of the marine strategums are already only 1 CP so it doesn't work on them. Regeneration from a single source without paying 40 points per CP isn't half as broken as what people think.
Marines pay more points per CP in the first place and have poor strategums. They also lack the equivalent of Kurov's Aquila to generate the broken regenerate, steal, regenerate combos.
The other option is to give them the hard counter to agents of vect
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
2018/08/31 16:21:40
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
CommunistNapkin wrote: I like a lot of your proposed changes, and while I agree that a -1 to hit trait applied to an entire army would be very bad for the game, I definitely feel that your Raven Guard chapter tactic is extremely lackluster. Maybe something like <INFANTRY> are -1 to hit at more than 12" and other units, such as vehicles or bikes get the benefit of cover even out in the open. Also, the Adept of the Codex warlord trait looks very useless as you have it written. It would have to do something else for sure to make it worth taking. Love Iron Resolve change.
That could work for Raven Guard honestly. It'd still be strong, but it wouldn't turn the army into the nonsense we see from the Eldar, nor would it throw Iron Hands under the bus as being the better mechanized army.
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
In regards to the Aspect of the Codex, I would give it something else unrelated to CP's. Honestly I'm not sure the best thing to do with it, but I think the way you have written it can safely be filed in the "never take" category. No offense intended.
2018/08/31 16:25:25
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Bharring wrote: I like the flavor, and appreciate that your suggestions are within reason.
I think a lot more iterating would be needed. However, realize that the other PA books generally suffer the same problems - so fixing Tacs by buffing Vanilla may not be ideal.
That said, yes, please change CTs. For instance, UM clearly need *something*, even if it's just +1LD atop what they currently get. I
t's hard to argue with CTs-affect-vehicles (mostly). I'd rather it be a tactic-by-tactic thing. I'd imagine the upthread Sally and RG tactics would only affect Infantry, but Iron Hands would affect everything.
On the topic of the RG trait, I'd love all the relevant factions (Alpha Legion and Alaitoc) to get such a change. If it needs toning down, look at the +1-cover-saves bit. Further, with that not impacting vehicles, I think you'd see RG played the way we think of them.
A true fix for the SM codex may need to actually *nerf* some options so that there's room to buff others. Nerf Big G further, and there'll be less problems buffing UltraMarines or Marines in general. Same with Agressors and double shooting. But I'm sure that's beyond the scope of what you're looking to do here.
I like your changes. I'd love to see them. I'd love for them to go further.
I'm not against making changes that would have to be applied to other armies (see my wargear suggestions for examples because those would work for every army with that wargear), but I disagree that the CT shouldn't work on vehicles. Someone with a century of training shouldn't forget that his chapter really loves to use bolters (using the IF as an example here) when hes the gunner on a Rhino for example. The trick, I suppose, it finding a way to balance giving the bonus to everyone while at the same time not breaking the game.
The UM CT definitely needs something to balance nerfing the regeneration CP but I don't think it's more LD. I feel like a discount on spent CP might be the method (allowing them to do things like Orbital Bombardment for cheaper) but still charges them for 1 CP stuff at the same rate as everyone else.
Guilliman could be nerfed to only affect Ultramarines, but honestly I only feel it doesn't fit the lore to do so. Primarchs are supposed to be a really big deal and keeping him a really big deal fits quite well. Honestly he might keep the points from dipping too much in the book more than affect the wargear or rules options too much.
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
The problem with that solution in 90% of the marine strategums are already only 1 CP so it doesn't work on them. Regeneration from a single source without paying 40 points per CP isn't half as broken as what people think.
Marines pay more points per CP in the first place and have poor strategums. They also lack the equivalent of Kurov's Aquila to generate the broken regenerate, steal, regenerate combos.
The other option is to give them the hard counter to agents of vect
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
Actually, I really like your Adepts of the Codex idea here. One free strat per turn is better than regaining points, and it'd give the army some late game options if they burned through their CP. Plus it'd let the army get two rerolls a phase which could be a rather unique mechanic for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 16:27:33
2018/08/31 16:28:03
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
Oh, I like that line of thinking, but think that would be a bit too powerful. Maybe instead it could be something like...
Adept of the Codex: Once per turn, as long as your warlord is on the table, you may use a single stratagem that you have already used this turn a second time in the same phase, at the cost of +1 CP.
I'm not sure the best way to word that to prevent random mechanics abuse that I haven't considered, but I feel this could be interesting. A second reroll for 2 CP, or even something like a second Hellfire Rounds or Flakk Missile for 2 CP. I think it gives a very interested play-style option without being blatantly too powerful and a must-take, or too mediocre and a never-take.
Or maybe going in the opposite direction with a: Once per game while your Warlord is alive and on the table, you may use any stratagem available to your army without paying its CP cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 16:31:00
2018/08/31 16:29:18
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
In regards to the Aspect of the Codex, I would give it something else unrelated to CP's. Honestly I'm not sure the best thing to do with it, but I think the way you have written it can safely be filed in the "never take" category. No offense intended.
None taken! The whole point of opening this up was to try and ensure I'm not falling down the rabbit hole of changes that don't fix things, and hearing other people's ideas helps me more carefully address things when I get the final submission put together.
2018/08/31 16:30:57
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
The problem with that solution in 90% of the marine strategums are already only 1 CP so it doesn't work on them. Regeneration from a single source without paying 40 points per CP isn't half as broken as what people think.
Marines pay more points per CP in the first place and have poor strategums. They also lack the equivalent of Kurov's Aquila to generate the broken regenerate, steal, regenerate combos.
The other option is to give them the hard counter to agents of vect
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
So to stop agents of vect you want to give space marines a free second orbital bombardment, the ability to make a unit fight 3 times in the fight phase or have 2 units fight twice for 3 cp, the ability to have a second command reroll for free in the turn and phase they use one, shoot any deepstriking enemy unit twice when they're placed on the board, or let a character fight or shoot twice on death?
2018/08/31 16:35:30
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
Oh, I like that line of thinking, but think that would be a bit too powerful. Maybe instead it could be something like...
Adept of the Codex: Once per turn, as long as your warlord is on the table, you may use a single stratagem that you have already used this turn a second time in the same phase, at the cost of +1 CP.
I'm not sure the best way to word that to prevent random mechanics abuse that I haven't considered, but I feel this could be interesting. A second reroll for 2 CP, or even something like a second Hellfire Rounds or Flakk Missile for 2 CP. I think it gives a very interested play-style option without being blatantly too powerful and a must-take, or too mediocre and a never-take.
Or maybe going in the opposite direction with a: Once per game while your Warlord is alive and on the table, you may use any stratagem available to your army without paying its CP cost.
And this sort of thing is why I started a thread instead of working on this in silence, in a candle lit room while I write on vellum with a quill pen.
The plus one CP one would be fairly strong but is tempered by costing more, but as was pointed out, it could cause problems with strats that were supposed to only trigger once. As such I think the one time free use of a strat would be a better choice.
2018/08/31 16:36:08
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
Oh, I like that line of thinking, but think that would be a bit too powerful. Maybe instead it could be something like...
Adept of the Codex: As long as your warlord is on the table, you may use a single stratagem that you have already used this turn a second time in the same phase, at the cost of +1 CP.
I'm not sure the best way to word that to prevent random mechanics abuse that I haven't considered, but I feel this could be interesting. A second reroll for 2 CP, or even something like a second Hellfire Rounds or Flakk Missile for 2 CP. I think it gives a very interested play-style option without being blatantly too powerful and a must-take, or too mediocre and a never-take.
The issue is marine CP's aren't cheap and are super limited, strategum wise, people don't pay 1CP for them now they arn't going to pay 2 CP for a second use. It's mandatory for all named charictors so it has to be something worthwhile.
Maybe make it so Joe Smoe Ultramarine gets a free Adaptes Astartes Strategum and Bobby G and Calgar get any Stratageum.
2018/08/31 16:43:34
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Good changes except Ultras have undoubtedly the worst chapter tactic. If anyone's tactic needs to improve it is the Ultras.
Just remove the -1 to hit criteria.
Like let me explain how bad this trait is. If I have a redemptor dread - fall back and shoot. It is hitting on 5+ - you realize that is the BS of an ork? Yeah...no. Remove the -1 penalty.
Basically - all ultras should have fly keyword without ignoring terrain and intervening models.+1 LD I don't give a crap about - I really don't think Ultras are any braver than their brothers anyways. Since all these traits seem to be semi 2 parters the LD can even stay.
I'd also remove requirements on auspex scan for 12" - change it to 18" and also remove the -1.
Remove requirement on orbital bombardment to stay still (WTF is this?) Have to stay still to call down an orbital?
Change the multiple levels of random on this crap. Roll D6 range - Every unit within the random range automatically takes d3 mortal wounds (no rolling 4+ to see if the unit hit by the bombarment cannon gets hurt).
Change ancient banners wording to "Unit" from "Model" .
Change wording on all plasma weapons to deal 1 mortal wound and not freaking SLAY you.
give Landraiders the natural ability to fall back and act as normal + have it deal d3 mortal wound on 4+ when it charges.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/08/31 16:44:42
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
The problem with that solution in 90% of the marine strategums are already only 1 CP so it doesn't work on them. Regeneration from a single source without paying 40 points per CP isn't half as broken as what people think.
Marines pay more points per CP in the first place and have poor strategums. They also lack the equivalent of Kurov's Aquila to generate the broken regenerate, steal, regenerate combos.
The other option is to give them the hard counter to agents of vect
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
So to stop agents of vect you want to give space marines a free second orbital bombardment, the ability to make a unit fight 3 times in the fight phase or have 2 units fight twice for 3 cp, the ability to have a second command reroll for free in the turn and phase they use one, shoot any deepstriking enemy unit twice when they're placed on the board, or let a character fight or shoot twice on death?
Given orbital bombardment is 1 use per game battle can they use their warlord trait on that? They can't
You could potentially use honour the chapter on 2 units but not the same unit.
Only in death could potentially be used twice but not on the same charictor so no I don't see either as game breaking.
2018/08/31 16:46:03
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
The problem with that solution in 90% of the marine strategums are already only 1 CP so it doesn't work on them. Regeneration from a single source without paying 40 points per CP isn't half as broken as what people think.
Marines pay more points per CP in the first place and have poor strategums. They also lack the equivalent of Kurov's Aquila to generate the broken regenerate, steal, regenerate combos.
The other option is to give them the hard counter to agents of vect
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
So to stop agents of vect you want to give space marines a free second orbital bombardment, the ability to make a unit fight 3 times in the fight phase or have 2 units fight twice for 3 cp, the ability to have a second command reroll for free in the turn and phase they use one, shoot any deepstriking enemy unit twice when they're placed on the board, or let a character fight or shoot twice on death?
Given orbital bombardment is 1 use per game battle can they use their warlord trait on that? They can't
You could potentially use honour the chapter on 2 units but not the same unit.
Only in death could potentially be used twice but not on the same charictor so no I don't see either as game breaking.
There's not in honour the chapter which could be read as preventing you from making the same unit fight 3 times with your suggested ruling and only in death is open to interpretation if you'd get a chance to activate it multiple times for the same character.
When suggesting a rules change you really need to elaborate why that change, how it should work and how it works with what exists. Just throwing something out without much thought doesn't help and can get potentially good ideas just dismissed outright. I feel like the idea has potential but not in the form you presented it.
2018/08/31 17:07:05
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
About the only buff I could see for Adept of the Codex is perhaps you pay 1 less CP (to a minimum of 1) for stratagems, but if we're charging less for CP then we might as well drop the CP regeneration instead.
The problem with that solution in 90% of the marine strategums are already only 1 CP so it doesn't work on them. Regeneration from a single source without paying 40 points per CP isn't half as broken as what people think.
Marines pay more points per CP in the first place and have poor strategums. They also lack the equivalent of Kurov's Aquila to generate the broken regenerate, steal, regenerate combos.
The other option is to give them the hard counter to agents of vect
Adepts of the Codex. Your ultramarine warlord is so well versed in the strategic teachings of thier primarch they can play one strategum for 0 Comand points once per turn, even if that strategum has already been played this phase.
So to stop agents of vect you want to give space marines a free second orbital bombardment, the ability to make a unit fight 3 times in the fight phase or have 2 units fight twice for 3 cp, the ability to have a second command reroll for free in the turn and phase they use one, shoot any deepstriking enemy unit twice when they're placed on the board, or let a character fight or shoot twice on death?
Given orbital bombardment is 1 use per game battle can they use their warlord trait on that? They can't
You could potentially use honour the chapter on 2 units but not the same unit.
Only in death could potentially be used twice but not on the same charictor so no I don't see either as game breaking.
There's not in honour the chapter which could be read as preventing you from making the same unit fight 3 times with your suggested ruling and only in death is open to interpretation if you'd get a chance to activate it multiple times for the same character.
When suggesting a rules change you really need to elaborate why that change, how it should work and how it works with what exists. Just throwing something out without much thought doesn't help and can get potentially good ideas just dismissed outright. I feel like the idea has potential but not in the form you presented it.
Only in death when a "charictor is slain", unless their is some way that I haven't seen where a model can die twice, I read it as that qualifier can never being satisfied twice by the same model.
Honour the chapter is at the end of the fight phase, it can't be played sequentially as that would require it to be the end of the fight phase twice, But it could potentially be played twice simultaneously, on seperate unit's.
2018/08/31 17:19:08
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Give Vanilla marines access to all astartes strats. Honestly should roll the angels into the main dex and have them share all strats (outside of 1 chapter specific like death visions).
Guilliman allows mixed chapters to retain their chapter tactics. Re-roll 1s for hit/wound w/in 12" for all astartes. Reduce his price back to pre-nerf levels.
Increase saves for loyalist. 1+ for termies, 2+ for tacs.
Change bolt guns to assault 3, 24" just for power armor folks (sorry scouts/sisters). Actually put in some anti-horde work.
+1 attacks across the board
Chainswords -1 ap
Land-raiders and drop pods get auspex (+1 to hit to one unit w/in 9"). Land raiders get assault ramps back. Can disembark after transport has moved but count as moving. Price cut for both units. LR strat to fire overwatch that hits on 5s (4s if we are feeling crazy). Allow them to do something like for the greater good "If a <chapter> unit is charged w/in 6" LR can fire overwatch at charging unit" (maybe with all of this they don't need a price cut). Give the stupid flying primaris boat the same rules.
Dreads get PoTMS + price cut + stomp attack (attacks x2, s6, -2 ap) Ironclads need more movement (or advance and charge).
BT characters need re-work (they pay way too much for options which are much more limited than other armies/factions).
New chapter tactics that apply to vehicles (I don't want my storm ravens re-rolling charge distances.)
Price cuts on most weapons. Missile launchers to 18-20. Meltas down, grav way down, flamers way down, pistols down, autocannons down.
Rhinos/razors cheaper. Rhinos get 2-3 firing ports.
Reivers get ap on their knives and stun grenades are once per game but 9" range.
More primarchs.
New/better strats. Terminators re-deploy strat. Fire twice strat. -1 to hit strat (would need to remove ravens -1 to hit but that's a good thing). +1 armor strat, extra -1 ap strat. deny deepstrike strat. kill shot only 2 preds. SM should be master tacticians not the worst warriors ever.
Significant price cuts on dev cents, stalkers, vindies, drop pods, land raiders, flyers, non-fw dreads, some characters, bikes, land speeders...
All of this would be a good start. After watching/chatting on nova last night I don't think any of it will happen and GW/play testers seem to think marines are in a good spot...
2018/08/31 17:36:14
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
I'm ignoring points costs at this point in time because if they're coming in CA it might negate any suggestions made here by virtue of arguments being made for a points cost to fix the issues over actually addressing the problem itself.
I don't think making PA a 2+ really fixes it and it just steps on the toes of the Custodes. And Custodes don't need to be the 1+ save army.
And Sisters wear power armour, so that'd give them Assault 3 bolters as well.
+1 attack sounds good but then Custodes would need to go up another attack as well, plus does a squad of 10 Primaris really need to be doing 32 attacks?
If Chainswords give AP then they shouldn't give bonus attacks. At least not if they stay free.
I disagree about the auspex, but I like the assault ramps idea. It'd give Land Raiders a niche in the army. No boosted overwatch standard though.
Power of the Machine Spirit doesn't need to be a thing for Dreads, nor do they need "stomp attacks". Maybe a weapon option for extra attacks (like a chain flail or something) but not stomp attacks. Boosted movement for Ironclads would be good though.
You're going to need to be more specific about what you mean by a "rework" for BT. Remember, this is going into a detailed document that is going to discuss the perceived issues and pair those with recommended changes with details on why.
My only guess on why fire points were removed was to prevent Marines from continuing to be the METAL BOXES army.
I could see AP on the knives, but if the extra attack is left on there then the knives will need to cost points. I don't think stun grenades need to be once per game, but the range does need to be longer (9" would still not work the turn you grav chute in anyways since you need to be outside of 9" and we measure base to base taking in elevation into account when shooting now, not in a straight line).
I'm going to spend some time muddling over strats this evening to kind of see what works, what needs to go and what we might look at adding in to replace it.
And playtesters look for whats the most abusable in a codex, we're looking at what's the most worthless in a codex and approach it to see how it can be salvaged. And seeing as playtesters let CP regeneration be a thing somehow (despite it being despised for game balance) I'd argue that they're not omnipotent.
2018/08/31 17:40:18
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
I just wanna tackle Chapter Tactics for now, as you know I've made my thoughts known in the proposed rules subforum.
Iron Hands should obviously have the 6+++ apply to everything, but giving them part of Grim Resolve doesn't say Iron Hands. Have them ignore the penalties for advancing with Assault weapons and/or moving with Heavy Weapons. A more relentless advance feels better.
Ultramarines can be changed by changing a core rule. I already feel that units with Fly should suffer a -1 while shooting after falling back. Ultramarines stay the same that way, and then their Fly units instead don't suffer any penalty. The LD bonus is lame, but I don't know what to do with that outside keeping it and then getting a bonus in some manner in addition ala Catachans and Mordians.
Black Templars I want to keep the rerolling of charges, and I like the extra attack idea. However I feel that's more appropriate for World Eaters. How about straight up ignoring Mortal Wounds on a 4+? On top of them getting their Strategem that would make them pretty darn anti-psyker AND mortal wound shenanigans.
I guess I'm fine with your White Scars fixes. I don't know what to do with them.
I don't like the generic bonus to Bolters for Imperial Fists. I'd rather they gain another bonus to cover like their Warlord Trait.
Raven Guard I want to keep the -1 to hit. Marines can't really stack the bonus and it punishes people going for pure gunline. I don't know what I would add as a second part though.
Salamanders I wanted to take a new route, as their trait is way too redundant with our HQ units. I'd suggest they get the AdMech Lucius trait (ignore -1 AP weapons basically), and then they can reroll the dice for random shots and random damage. That might be too strong though.
We also already know how I feel about the Angels being rolled into the main codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just feel free to message me actually. You seem as passionate about making changes to to the codex as I am.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 17:41:57
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/08/31 17:42:20
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Bharring wrote: I like all those except the LR change and the 18" range on Auspex. Could even see Auspex going to 1CP.
Space wolf version has unlimited range and -1 eldar version is unlimmited with needs to be 6" from farseer. Figured 18" no -1 no requirements except being infantry was a decent middle ground.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/08/31 17:53:33
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
IronBrand wrote: There's not in honour the chapter which could be read as preventing you from making the same unit fight 3 times with your suggested ruling and only in death is open to interpretation if you'd get a chance to activate it multiple times for the same character.
When suggesting a rules change you really need to elaborate why that change, how it should work and how it works with what exists. Just throwing something out without much thought doesn't help and can get potentially good ideas just dismissed outright. I feel like the idea has potential but not in the form you presented it.
Only in death when a "charictor is slain", unless their is some way that I haven't seen where a model can die twice, I read it as that qualifier can never being satisfied twice by the same model.
Honour the chapter is at the end of the fight phase, it can't be played sequentially as that would require it to be the end of the fight phase twice, But it could potentially be played twice simultaneously, on seperate unit's.
I don't believe the game rules have anything robust about timing like a game like magic the gathering does. If you could activate honour the chapter twice for separate units at the "end of the fight phase" then there is nothing preventing you from selecting the same unit twice or activating only in death twice for the one death. It all OFC depends on rulings on if you can use multiple stratagems at the same time, e.g. two different stratagems both at the end of the same fight phase, or if the game stays at the "end of the fight phase" until players decide they're done. If it doesn't stay at the "end of the fight phase" until players are done then when two marine players are fighting whoever declares honour the chapter first after the last roll of the fight phase gets to fight again while denying their opponent the opportunity to also do so.
2018/08/31 18:20:30
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
Deads need something to keep from from getting tied up by chaff units. Stomp or flail call it what you want.
Who cares about custodes. They have 4++s. We should be more like them because they are actually used in competitive settings. I don't know why people are so hung up on "we can't be like this unit." That unit is good for a reason.
Sisters wear bootleg PA. Without that extra organ they can't handle the kick from SM bolters. Sisters are cheap enough they don't need the extra shots but marines offensive output just isn't good enough. Best way to easily increase SM bolters vs chaff without crazy rules (exploding on sixes) and SM need more dakka (especially with green tides on the way).
AP + extra attack makes marines viable in CC. If we are dealing with points in CA sure. Maybe they cost 1 point then. Or give assault marines +1 attack on charge to give them a reason for existing.
Yeah, 32 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds, 9 unsaved = one guard squad dead in melee or 180 points to kill 40. Guard squads can get 30 s4 4+ attacks for 40 points. Not as unbalanced as you think.
Again why do custodes need more attacks if marines get them? They have spears, an invuln, more wounds, better strats and gold...
Boosted overwatch would be a strat but I really like the idea of for the greater good for land raiders. They need to be so close to combat it would be a cool rule (like a moving defensive bunker)
2018/08/31 18:34:02
Subject: Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
bananathug wrote: Deads need something to keep from from getting tied up by chaff units. Stomp or flail call it what you want.
Who cares about custodes. They have 4++s. We should be more like them because they are actually used in competitive settings. I don't know why people are so hung up on "we can't be like this unit." That unit is good for a reason.
Sisters wear bootleg PA. Without that extra organ they can't handle the kick from SM bolters. Sisters are cheap enough they don't need the extra shots but marines offensive output just isn't good enough. Best way to easily increase SM bolters vs chaff without crazy rules (exploding on sixes) and SM need more dakka (especially with green tides on the way).
AP + extra attack makes marines viable in CC. If we are dealing with points in CA sure. Maybe they cost 1 point then. Or give assault marines +1 attack on charge to give them a reason for existing.
Yeah, 32 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds, 9 unsaved = one guard squad dead in melee or 180 points to kill 40. Guard squads can get 30 s4 4+ attacks for 40 points. Not as unbalanced as you think.
Again why do custodes need more attacks if marines get them? They have spears, an invuln, more wounds, better strats and gold...
Boosted overwatch would be a strat but I really like the idea of for the greater good for land raiders. They need to be so close to combat it would be a cool rule (like a moving defensive bunker)
I'd rather give dreads a new weapon option over giving them an alternate attack. Call it a preference but the angry washing machine shouldn't be stomping things.
And you have to care about Custodes because they're balanced relative to Marines. If you do something to change the durability of Marines, then the armies who have PA (or PA+1 like Custodes) are going to need to be changed to stay in line with them. We don't balance in a vacuum so any change that is shared needs to be adjusted with that in mind.
Sisters wear power armour minus the black carapace which means it's less sensory responsive but just as protective. Again, you need to consider other armies when proposing changes because we're not making changes in a vacuum.
Consider the change I'm proposing to Black Templars and that'd push a full sized Crusader squad to 82 attacks with chainswords on the first round of combat. That is Ork levels of dice on power armoured bodies.
Boosted overwatch is definitely a strat thing. If anything, I'd argue that the Land Raider should be able to overwatch for nearby units instead. Go ahead and charge that Terminator squad that's next to a Crusader.
2018/08/31 19:56:21
Subject: Re:Putting together feedback on Codex: Space Marines
I don't think special rules is the solution for most of the SM line. More precisely, I think that Terminators shouldn't receive special rules buffs, just cost reductions. A cost reduction would improve both their toughness and firepower density simultaneously. The same goes for tacticals. I think special rules should be reserved for something that really doesn't work the way it should, and needs help beyond what a points change could fix. Terminators and Tacticals are working as intended, but kind of expensive.
Chapter Tactics All units with [Chapter] benefit from Chapter Tactics. If there's no problem with a Leviathan falling back, I don't see why a Predator can't.
Land Raiders Power of the Machine Spirit: The Land Raider ignores the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and can fire it's weapons in the shooting phase even if it fell back in the movement phase.
Vindicators Demolisher Cannon: change profile to: Heavy 2d6, S10, AP-3, D2, R24" This should make the Demolisher cannon fairly decent against vehicles, fortification, and medium/heavy infantry, which it should be. Armor save to 2+ with siege blade.
Whirlwind I have no idea, honestly. More shots, so it kills infantry better? Maybe Heavy 4d6, S6, AP-, D1, like an increased strength Wyvern?
All Vehicles Light tracked vehicles to [Rhino, Chimera] T7.
Medium tracked vehicles to [Predator, Vindicator] T8.
Heavy tracked vehicles [Land Raider, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Battlewagon] to T9.
This measure should make vehicles better, and differentiate between light, medium, and heavy vehicles and antitank weapons. Right now, there's heavy vehicles, and all other vehicles, and for the most part antitank weapons don't really see them all that differently
Meltaguns Double S within half range [wound tanks on 2's], instead of re-roll damage. This is roughly akin to getting the extra D6 armor penetration they used to, and makes them exceptionally good against vehicles up close but fairly okay at a distance.
Stratagems Killshot: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Predator is selected to shoot. This Predator's Lascannons and Twin Lascannons add 1 to all damage rolls.
Linebreaker Bombardment: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Vindicator is selected to shoot. This Vindicator does not attack with it's Demolisher Cannon. Instead, select a target unit. That unit takes D3 mortal wounds. Roll a die for each unit within 6" of the targeted unit, on a 4+, they also take D3 mortal wounds.
Datalink Telemetry: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Whirlwind is selected to shoot. This Whirlwind re-rolls all failed to-hit rolls during this shooting phase.
It seems like I posted the same thing twice about a day apart. And the posts are nearly identical. Sorry about that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/01 19:09:23
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
and move up to 6" while doing so. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord may roll an extra die and choose the highest when making charge rolls.
