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I've been toying around with the idea of playing 8th with additional rules to make the game run better and add some more depth. What do you guys think of some of these.

Rules Changes:

Magic:
-Add a d3 to the power dice pool for each 1000 points that exceed a game size of 3000 points. Take half of the total power dice and add it to the dispel pool. For example a game of 5000 points would be you standard 2d6 power dice pool with an extra 2d3 for each 1000 points above 3000 points. I think this would help a bit with scaling the game size.

-Spells that say "remove from play" are changed to d3 wounds.

-Magic Resistance imposes a negative penalty on the caster when targeting a unit with magic resistance. For example, a wizard wants to cast fireball level 2 on a unit that has magic resistance (2). The wizard rolls a 9 plus 2 for his wizard level. But the magic resistance imposes a -2 on his casting value bringing it back down to 9, so it is a failure.

Psychology.

-Fear: Units that cause fear impose a -1 penalty to leadership when taking break tests required to be made with units in base contact. This includes Steadfast and Stubborn units. Units that are immune to psychology are not affected by this.

-Terror: Units that cause terror impose a -3 penalty to leadership when taking break tests required to be made with units in base contact. This includes Steadfast and Stubborn units. Units that are immune to psychology are not affected by this.

Steadfast:

-A unit does not benefit from steadfast when an enemy unit consisting of at least one rank has engaged it in the flank or rear, or the enemy unit has the Large Target special rule.

Weapons:

Spears: Units armed with spears can fight in an extra rank. In addition, a unit armed with spears causes d6 strength 4 impact hits for every fighting rank on the turn it is charged. This unit causes d6 strength 5 impact hits for every fighting rank on the turn it is charged by a unit that has the Swift Stride special rule.

Bows: All bow weapons benefit from the Armour Piercing rule when firing under half range of the weapon.

Halberd: +1 strength, additionally provides the Armour Piercing special rule when attacking an enemy with a 4+ save or higher.


In this next section I was considering adding more unit formations instead of just Horde formation.

Formations:

Shield Wall:
-Requirements: Shield
-Benefits: The unit gains a 5+ ward save against all combat and shooting that requires a ballistic skill test.
-Drawbacks: The unit may not march or charge in the turn it forms a Shield Wall

Shiltron:
-Requirements: Spears, the unit must maintain a square formation as much as possible. For example a unit of 30 spearmen could make a unit of 5 men wide and 6 men deep, or 6 men wide and 5 men deep.
-Benefits: The unit no longer has flanks or rear, and cannot suffer penalties from being charged in any direction. The unit is stubborn.
-Drawbacks: The unit cannot march or charge on the turn it forms a Shiltron.

Raider:
-Benefits: The unit gains the Skirmisher special rule, can move and shoot normally after Rallying and can re-roll flee distances.
-Drawbacks: The unit cannot be Steadfast, fight in more than 2 ranks or gain more than 1 combat resolution for determining how many ranks it has.

Lance:
-Requirements: Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry, minimum 2 ranks
-Benefits: The unit gains the devastating charge special rule (including mounts), counts 3 models wide as a rank, and fights with an additional rank
-Drawbacks: The unit cannot be Steadfast.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I've been toying around with the idea of playing 8th with additional rules to make the game run better and add some more depth. What do you guys think of some of these.

Rules Changes:

Magic:
-Add a d3 to the power dice pool for each 1000 points that exceed a game size of 3000 points. Take half of the total power dice and add it to the dispel pool. For example a game of 5000 points would be you standard 2d6 power dice pool with an extra 2d3 for each 1000 points above 3000 points. I think this would help a bit with scaling the game size.

Roll for magic dice as normal, but add one power or dispel dice to the total and the dice cap, for every 500pts or part thereof over 2000pts

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

-Spells that say "remove from play" are changed to d3 wounds.

These wound cannot be saved by any means except magic resistance.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

-Magic Resistance imposes a negative penalty on the caster when targeting a unit with magic resistance. For example, a wizard wants to cast fireball level 2 on a unit that has magic resistance (2). The wizard rolls a 9 plus 2 for his wizard level. But the magic resistance imposes a -2 on his casting value bringing it back down to 9, so it is a failure.

in addition to any save provided.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Steadfast:

-A unit does not benefit from steadfast when an enemy unit consisting of at least one rank has engaged it in the flank or rear, or the enemy unit has the Large Target special rule.

Steadfast units test on their own unmodified leadership, or on the generals leadership modified as normal, whichever is higher.
Characters in the testing unit provide leadership as normal.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Weapons:
Spears: Units armed with spears can fight in an extra rank. In addition, a unit armed with spears causes d6 strength 4 impact hits for every fighting rank on the turn it is charged. This unit causes d6 strength 5 impact hits for every fighting rank on the turn it is charged by a unit that has the Swift Stride special rule.

Spear

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Bows: All bow weapons benefit from the Armour Piercing rule when firing under half range of the weapon.

Bows may stand and shoot with volley fire

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

In this next section I was considering adding more unit formations instead of just Horde formation.

Formations:

Shield Wall:
-Requirements: Shield
-Benefits: The unit gains a 5+ ward save against all combat and shooting that requires a ballistic skill test.
-Drawbacks: The unit may not march or charge in the turn it forms a Shield Wall

Infantry and monsterous infantry only.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Shiltron:
-Requirements: Spears, the unit must maintain a square formation as much as possible. For example a unit of 30 spearmen could make a unit of 5 men wide and 6 men deep, or 6 men wide and 5 men deep.
-Benefits: The unit no longer has flanks or rear, and cannot suffer penalties from being charged in any direction. The unit is stubborn.
-Drawbacks: The unit cannot march or charge on the turn it forms a Shiltron.

Unit with spears or halberds may ignore flank penalties. A unit forfeits all movement to form a shiltron and requires a successful leadership test..

Some interesting stuff there, but I dislike the D3 and D6 rolling for magic and spears respectively.

I can see the d3 being a bit tedious, but the idea of the winds of magic was supposed to be unreliable.

Personally I think the impact hits from spears makes them function pretty much how a defensive spear unit would work in real life. It also makes spears a great deterrent for flank charges and helps the hold objectives.

Do you have another suggestion on how spears should work?

I think 9th age's solution of giving the Spears Killing Blow was in the right direction.

Spears: Units armed with spears can fight in an extra rank and receive a +1 bonus to hit against targets with Troop Type Monstrous Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry, Monstrous Beasts and Monsters (but not Chariots). In addition, a unit armed with spears gains the Piercing Blow special rule for every fighting rank on the turn it is charged.
Piercing Blow: If a model with the Piercing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to Wound in close combat, he automatically causes 1 wound to his opponent. Armour and Regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Piercing Blow

My take on spears must have accidentally highlighted and deleted without noticing it.

Mounted charge resistance was devastating but the main reason was not the braced spears, but because the mounted opponents had to slow down and are bulky and faced many opponents at once.

Killing blow when receiving a frontal charge is a good no nonsense bonus rule, but I think we can do better.

Giving spears armour piercing when receiving any charge works, also the +1cr for charging should be forfeit against ranked spears. A character alone will not get this benefit unless charged by a lone model.

Killing blow is perhaps too good.

The spear rules are too powerful especially combined with the Shiltron. Place a unit of 25 of them in the middle of the field and any charger has to deal with 5 * D6 S4 attacks before they have even started. Additionally you could reintroduce the conga line for spearmen. 30 ranks of 1 model would give you 30 D6 S4 hits and use other units to protect the flanks.

I understand why you are doing this but this one needs reworking.

Well the wording was supposed to be for every full fighting rank regarding the spears. So it would only be maximum 3d6 because normal units fight only in 3 ranks with spears, 4 if you are hoarded up because spears only fight in one extra rank.

So if you conga lined them, they would only get normal attacks.

Assuming a normal ranked spear unit with 3 fighting ranks of 5 or more against a toughness 3 unit with 5+ save. You're averaging 10.5 hits, roughly 6 wounds and 1 saved. So 5 or 6 dead on the turn it charges. I don't think this is that powerful to be honest. There are lots of way more powerful units in the game.

 Orlanth wrote:
My take on spears must have accidentally highlighted and deleted without noticing it.

Mounted charge resistance was devastating but the main reason was not the braced spears, but because the mounted opponents had to slow down and are bulky and faced many opponents at once.

Killing blow when receiving a frontal charge is a good no nonsense bonus rule, but I think we can do better.

Giving spears armour piercing when receiving any charge works, also the +1cr for charging should be forfeit against ranked spears. A character alone will not get this benefit unless charged by a lone model.

Killing blow is perhaps too good.

I like the combat resolution negation in theory, but I think practically it would be annoying, the same with the caveat for Characters.

Killing Blow is too good if Spears had the ability all the time, but if they only have it the turn they are charged then the Spears are more about controlling the space around them.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

-Add a d3 to the power dice pool for each 1000 points that exceed a game size of 3000 points. Take half of the total power dice and add it to the dispel pool. For example a game of 5000 points would be you standard 2d6 power dice pool with an extra 2d3 for each 1000 points above 3000 points. I think this would help a bit with scaling the game size.

Why not simply add a D6 per 1000 points?

That being said, how would you divide the result between the player whose turn it is and his opponent?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

-Spells that say "remove from play" are changed to d3 wounds.

I don't feel D3 is enough.
This would change some spells that were death threats to some monsters into minor annoyances (eg Pit of Shades on a Stegadon).
D6 wound might be better.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

-Magic Resistance imposes a negative penalty on the caster when targeting a unit with magic resistance. For example, a wizard wants to cast fireball level 2 on a unit that has magic resistance (2). The wizard rolls a 9 plus 2 for his wizard level. But the magic resistance imposes a -2 on his casting value bringing it back down to 9, so it is a failure.

Interesting
I was toying with the idea to restore Magic Resistance to how it was in older editions, where the number between brackets were the amount of extra dispell dice you got but you idea might be even better.

Only thing that is still a bit of a problem to me is vortexes scattering into units with Magic Resistance.
In this case the Magic Resistance does nothing.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

-Fear: Units that cause fear impose a -1 penalty to leadership when taking break tests required to be made with units in base contact. This includes Steadfast and Stubborn units. Units that are immune to psychology are not affected by this.

-Terror: Units that cause terror impose a -3 penalty to leadership when taking break tests required to be made with units in base contact. This includes Steadfast and Stubborn units. Units that are immune to psychology are not affected by this.

While Fear does need some help, I feel a -3 modifier makes Terror too strong.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Steadfast:

-A unit does not benefit from steadfast when an enemy unit consisting of at least one rank has engaged it in the flank or rear, or the enemy unit has the Large Target special rule.

Does this include the front rank?
And does it have to be a full rank?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Weapons:

Spears: Units armed with spears can fight in an extra rank. In addition, a unit armed with spears causes d6 strength 4 impact hits for every fighting rank on the turn it is charged. This unit causes d6 strength 5 impact hits for every fighting rank on the turn it is charged by a unit that has the Swift Stride special rule.

Bows: All bow weapons benefit from the Armour Piercing rule when firing under half range of the weapon.

Halberd: +1 strength, additionally provides the Armour Piercing special rule when attacking an enemy with a 4+ save or higher.

I agree with what other have said about spears.
Simply making spears Armour Piercing versus cavalry, chariots and monsters would already help a lot.
Maybe give an Initiative bonus as well?

What's your logic behind the Armour Piercing for bows and halberds?

Why not simply add a D6 per 1000 points?

That being said, how would you divide the result between the player whose turn it is and his opponent?

Could do that, d6 extra is a lot though. I didn't want to overload the magic phase. I was basically going to divide by 2 rounding up.

I don't feel D3 is enough.
This would change some spells that were death threats to some monsters into minor annoyances (eg Pit of Shades on a Stegadon).
D6 wound might be better.

I just flat out don't think it's fun to have somebodies favourite monster or lord die in one fell swoop of a random spell going off. I feel like thats bad game design. So I think d3 is more acceptable.

Interesting
I was toying with the idea to restore Magic Resistance to how it was in older editions, where the number between brackets were the amount of extra dispell dice you got but you idea might be even better.

Only thing that is still a bit of a problem to me is vortexes scattering into units with Magic Resistance.
In this case the Magic Resistance does nothing.

Orlanth was suggesting including the ward save on top of the negative modifier for magic resistance, which i think is a good fix as long as the ward save can be taken against all spells.

While Fear does need some help, I feel a -3 modifier makes Terror too strong.

-2 then?

Does this include the front rank?
And does it have to be a full rank?

yes and yes.

I agree with what other have said about spears.
Simply making spears Armour Piercing versus cavalry, chariots and monsters would already help a lot.
Maybe give an Initiative bonus as well?

What's your logic behind the Armour Piercing for bows and halberds?

I never felt bows did enough damage, and at short range bows are very lethal so that was my logic behind that. Halberds were designed in real life to take on heavily armoured opponents by hooking them and pulling them to the ground, so I thought armour piercing was a decent change, could be and initiative bonus too.

Seems like everyone is against the spear idea.

I mean, killing blow and armour piercing against chargers is a decent enough change I think. Only one round is not too overpowered.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Why not simply add a D6 per 1000 points?

That being said, how would you divide the result between the player whose turn it is and his opponent?

Could do that, d6 extra is a lot though. I didn't want to overload the magic phase. I was basically going to divide by 2 rounding up.

Ok, I see where you're coming from.

Would you halve the total or just the D3 result?

Halving the total rounding up would balance out the winds in the favour of the casting player I think.
For example if you roll a 1 and a 6, under the current rules your opponent only has one dispel die less than you have power dice.
If you halve the result it becomes 4 to 7.

On the other hand, halving a D3 is basically just rolling a D2 so you might as well just give an extra die per 1000 points, and an additional one on a +4

I had been thinking about adding a D6 per 1000 (or 2000) points.
Casting player gets the total and the dispelling player the total minus the lowest die.
This system isn't perfect either as it may be too much in favour of the dispelling player (especially in very large games).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I don't feel D3 is enough.
This would change some spells that were death threats to some monsters into minor annoyances (eg Pit of Shades on a Stegadon).
D6 wound might be better.

I just flat out don't think it's fun to have somebodies favourite monster or lord die in one fell swoop of a random spell going off. I feel like thats bad game design. So I think d3 is more acceptable.

While I agree with you in principle, how is it casting a Vortex spell different than landing a Killing Blow on a lord?
Both require some lucky dice rolls, both have a high chance of (literally) blowing up in the face of the character who attempts it, and both allow some sort of last-chance-save option in the form of Ward saves or characteristic tests.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

While Fear does need some help, I feel a -3 modifier makes Terror too strong.

-2 then?

Personally I would reinstate the Ld test required to charge Terror-causing creatures.
To me it makes no sense a unit needs to take a test if it's charged by a Terror causer but is totally fine with having a closer look at one that's standing still.

The Ld test would (help to) prevent chaff units from delaying or tarpitting the Terror causer so you have a higher chance to get the creature where you need it to be.
And of course since Terror causing creatures also cause Fear, they would get the -1 to Ld in Close Combat.



Sorry if I seem overly critical of your ideas. It's not my intention :-/
It's just that this is a subject I'm very interested in.

I've removed winds of magic altogether. Level 1 and 2 wizards can cast 1 spell. Level 3 and 4 can cast 2 spells. Special wizards like Teclis 3 spells.

Made a chart to modify the spells to use a 2d6 system with the nasty spells needing 9s or 10s. Double 1s are miscast and do D3 wounds to the caster with no save.

Wizards also know all spells from their list.

auticus wrote:
I've removed winds of magic altogether. Level 1 and 2 wizards can cast 1 spell. Level 3 and 4 can cast 2 spells. Special wizards like Teclis 3 spells.

Made a chart to modify the spells to use a 2d6 system with the nasty spells needing 9s or 10s. Double 1s are miscast and do D3 wounds to the caster with no save.

Wizards also know all spells from their list.

Crude though this is, I rather like this.

Remove the levels altogether then, and have adept and master spellcasters. The top two spells in each list should be restricted to masters.

I've removed winds of magic altogether. Level 1 and 2 wizards can cast 1 spell. Level 3 and 4 can cast 2 spells. Special wizards like Teclis 3 spells.

Made a chart to modify the spells to use a 2d6 system with the nasty spells needing 9s or 10s. Double 1s are miscast and do D3 wounds to the caster with no save.

Wizards also know all spells from their list.

I appreciate your input, but I very much dislike the way AoS and 40K have chosen to do their psychic/magic phase.

I think it's really hack, overly simplified and offers no nuanced game play the way Fantasy does.

The ability to bluff with dice rolls, using more dice or less dice to cast certain spells depending on what you really need to get through makes the 8th ed Fantasy system the best that GW ever made. It has it's flaws which I addressed in the OP.

I found that 8th edition magic phase was really all about six dicing the nasty spell in the hopes of getting double 6 so that your opponent couldn't dispel.

But with a high chance to blow up the caster (and anything nearby) so it balances out, in theory.